About the protection package: I was wondering when someone was going to suggest this, because the same thought had occurred to me. It forces you to add some Underground Seas, but the deck already kind of wants those anyway in case it needs to hardcast a Disciple. FoW (and soon PoN) are great and all, but when protecting yourself from disruption in preperation for going off, these seem like more effective options, as they let you know exactly what your opponent is work with and whether or not it's safe to go off. On the play, Duress and Therapy are probably better against black disruption as well, because they remove opposing Duresses and the like before they become a problem, whereas FoWing them costs you cards you might need to go off, and PoNing them isn't a viable option. Has anyone else tested with Duress/Therapy over countermagic as combo protection?Originally Posted by jamest
About Sideboarding: Nihil brought it up, and it hasn't really been discussed. Since his suggestions were (hopefully) facetious, what do people think about sideboarding options?
You have a few types of viable hate:
1. Cheap countermagic (Daze, FoW, Stifle).
2. Permanents (Leyline of the Void, Meddling Mage, Children of Korlis, Shared Trimph?!)
3. Red Elemental Blast.
So, in constructing a sideboard to deal with these rather limited forms of hate, the following comes to mind:
1. If you're running Duress and Therapy over FoW and PoN, this may not be an issue. If not, Xantid Swarm is a viable (and Pactable) option. Misdirections also seems like a perfectly legitimate option in winning counter wars.
2. A lot of builds are already running a single Chain of Vapor in the maindeck. I would think at least one more in the board would be a good option. I would also think that at least one, perhaps two Echoing Truths would be a really good plan, since a single CoV can't answer double Mage or double Leyline. Another more narrow option, as previously mentioned, would Massacre as a free, tutorable answer to Meddling Mage and Children of Korlis.
3. Blue Elemental Blast is probably a very good idea as a 4-of, since many red decks already run REB in the board.
About the metagame impact: It may be a little early to be discussing this, particularly in light of the fact that we don't know how long Flash will last in the format, and it's perhaps a little off topic, but I'm interested in discussing this. If Flash remains un-re-errated and unbanned, it will signify a huge shift in the Legacy metagame. Most here agree that the combo is fast, resilient and cosistent enough to be likely to take a place in Tier 1.
If this happens, the (extremely large) amount of aggro and a good deal of the aggro-control decks in the format will likely see an extreme decline due to their inability to cope with this and other combo effectively. Currently a lot of aggro decks have dedicated combo hate in the sideboards for storm combo, but this hate is largely ineffective against Hulk Flash. Decks packing Rule of Law, Pyrostatic Pillar, Glowrider, and Chalice of the Void as a means to stop TES and Solidarity are going to find their game is sorely lacking against Hulk Flash.
They can stack their sideboards with Meddling Mages, Children of Korlis, and Red Elemental Blasts instead, but then they fall prey to Storm combo. There's hardly room enough to hate on both, and even if there is, it leaves no room at all for answers to other problematic matchups. Furthermore, Where there are multiple effective hate cards in most colors for each Storm combo deck, there is only one in a few colors for Flash. White/Blue gets Mage, Red gets REB, and black gets Leyline. Even if aggro decks wanted to stack their sideboard with hate for Hulk Flash alone, they couldn't, because there aren't enough available cards in the cardpool to do so.
It seems to me like most pure aggro will be completely defunct if this archetype remains viable. I know it sounds like doomsaying, but this deck is fast, consistent, resilient, and unlike other combo decks, cheap as hell to build and easy to play. Aggro-control decks not running blue countermagic or heavy black disruption will likely also cease to be viable. Goblins will likely take a steep decline in popularity.
And without Goblins holding down the fort, dedicated blue-based control will suddenly become more popular. Landstill will find a strong metagame niche. Thresh will likely continue to be popular, and perhaps even stronger since it won't need to worry so much about Goblins.
And it seems like dedicated black-based aggro-control decks will gain a huge amount of viability. Not only are they very strong against combo, but they have a very reasonable if not outright positive matchup against blue-based control like Thresh and Landstill. The main thing keeping them in check at the moment is dedicated aggro decks like Goblins, Zoo, Burn, etc. Without them holding as significant place in the metagame, I could see a consistent, aggressive black-based deck holding very powerful sway over the metagame.
Just tossing some ideas/predictions out there. What do others think?
Last edited by Zilla; 04-29-2007 at 09:25 PM.
lich combo could actually start be played since nourishing shoal for 15 life turn 1-2 assures victory since the deck at max can only do 32 damage
so in short yeah aggro will disapear and might be replaced with life gain lol
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Zilla: I agree with most of what you've said about the way the format will change. Most of the fighting will not be done in the combat phase but on the stack and in people's hands instead. I'm not too familiar with Blue Control and Landstill...do you really think they can hold a candle to Hulk Flash? I agree that goblins are the deck that keeping them out of the format, but are they quick and heavy handed enough to win over this?
Combo will always have trouble with control. If aggro wasn't much of the field anymore, then Landstill could focus more on disruption instead of removal and would have an excellent matchup.
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According to testing referenced earlier in this thread, Landstill has a pretty good game against it. That said, this question ultimately depends on a couple things:
1. Is the blue control deck running maindecked Stifle? Force of Will is obviously solid, but they won't have it in every opening grip. If they have Stifle in addition, then they're much mroe likely to have an answer.
2. Are we talking about pre-FS or post-FS builds? The post-FS builds are going to be faster and more resilient thanks to the Pacts. It's possible that these added benefits may be enough to significantly improve the matchup in Hulk Flash's favor. Only testing would tell for sure.
3. Depends on your disruption package and sideboard. While Landstill etc. may have decent game against the currently proposed builds, I suspect ones running proactive protection like Duress and Therapy will do better against opposing decks running countermagic. This would be further improved by Xantid Swarm coming in from the board.
The short answer is, yes, with currently legal builds as they have been proposed in this thread, Landstill has a solid game against them. The long answer is, the decklist can likely be improved to give it a very solid game against Landstill and other control decks, particularly if you take sideboarding into account.
As a player of Legacy since the separation of the B&R list two years ago I have never felt so broadsided by a new deck. To my knowledge nothing has ever come out of nowhere and changed everything. This deck does. For fuck sake, it’s more resilient than Dragon every was. That’s right; I am actually comparing it to one of the fastest most broken combos of all time.
All our hard work...all the diversity....gone in one weekend. I have seen it in testing already and I am at a lose for words. If you are not running blue cards in your deck you better have the most amazing anti combo Sideboard in the world to have a chance.
I am not a very happy camper right now as you might be able to tell. And no, the deck I play is Thresh and not some random agro deck. Hulk combo is completely unhealthy for this format, shifting the balance tremendously. I am going to attend the next GPT this weekend in Richmond but I am not going to play. I hope this will tell me if I am over reacting or not.
Last edited by Happy Gilmore; 04-30-2007 at 11:13 AM.
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This deck would no doubt redefine the format. However, there is no way - I repeat, NO WAY - Flash won't get re-errataed or banned on or before June 1.
Btw, more anti-Flash tech: Spell Snare.
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I Agree with you that June 1 will result in a definite banning but what about GP Columbus? The pros will hate the format, the diversity of the field will decrease substancially, and some of the players that have been in this format since the begining might not end up going since all of us have decks we enjoy playing.
I am hoping that at the next GPT we can generate a T8 so packed with hulk combo that wizards may consider an emergency banning. And they very well might do it too.
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Fish as the inevitable answer to Hulk Flash?
Meddling Mage, True Believer, Samurai of the Pale Curtain, Dark Confidant for creatures. (maybe Children of Korlis too?)
Force of Will, Daze, Stifle, Duress, and possibly Cabal Therapy for disruption spells.
Remember, Fish was actually a competative deck in Type 1. It slogged through an awful lot of very strong combo (dragon, belcher) and control (keeper, hulk smash). It doesn't see play in Legacy now because it folds to aggro. (especially if it's geared towards beating combo, control, and combo-control) But if aggro gets driven out of the metagame by combo, then Fish is primed to make a comeback.
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I have a question for whoever is willing to go the wotc forums. I am unclear about what exactly is happening with the DCI.
Is the wording in gatherer just preparation for the May 1st update? Is this the final wording on the card, or are they going to be re-errataing the card? Why remove the errata just to re-errata it?
I never played Classic-Restricted during the days of Dragon and I'm sure it was very solid deck, but what I can see from the old SCG articles, there were plenty of decks not running Worldgorger Dragon seeing success in the format. If you really want to talk about broken, I'd have to put Tinker/Jar on that list because of the unprecedented EMERGENCY BANNING of Memory Jar.
I equate Hulk Flash to the former, not the latter and I completely agree with Anusien and Zilla.
Dom, you may not like metagame shifts, but they happen and you just gotta roll with it. SuiBlack with Carnophage and Sarcomancy may have been a pretty solid deck at one point, but then the meta changed. Goblin Sligh may have been a pretty solid deck at one point, but then the meta changed. [INSERT DECK HERE] may have been a pretty solid deck at one point, but then the meta changed. No one is holding a gun to you head, telling you to keep up with the current metagame, but if you want to win some matches, you might consider doing just that.
Allow me to rework that last sentence into something I think we can all relate to
If Hulk Flash does become a viable Tier 1 Deck, get ready to board Stifles and "free" Counterspells. But remember, no one is making anyone keep up with the current metagame.
Hulk Flash has weaknesses that don't require a 15-card Sideboard dedicated solely to beating it. In my opinion, Daze, Stifle, Trickbind, Force of Will, Leyline of the Void, Gilded Light, Children of Korlis, and even Angel's Grace all seem like reasonable answers to that deck if it remains intact. Sideboard cards like that point to decks playing Blue and White (duh, I know) which, at least in Legacy, are traditionally control colors. A deck that's awesome against Aggro strategies (Hulk Flash) will find a nemesis in Aggro Control and Control decks (also favored against Aggro strategies) packing free counters, discard effects, or various ways to "turn off" Disciple of the Vault. This paves the way for decks packing Black disruption suites to find success vs. Control. Furthermore, what's Storm combo to do against a deck that wins on 2 Mana Sources?
Would Solidarity start boarding in Daze and/or Stifle? Would IGGy Pop go back to running Leyline of the Void? Would TES start running Leyline of the Void? The latter two already have some difficulty with Stifle and Countermagic, what if more decks ran those cards because of Hulk Flash? How would they adapt?
I think Hulk Flash would be a fine choice for the GP because your match is over in 10 minutes or less. Either you go busted or your opponent stops you with a well-timed Duress, Hymn, or Stifle. That's 40 minutes to go take a nap, eat a sandwich, whack off in your hotel room, take a shower, and get ready for your next Round.
Allan has just spoiled my secret tech for the GP. Damn you urabahn!!!
This deck's emergence would sure make the old Iggy Pop build with 4 maindeck Leyline of the Voids see a surge in popularity.
This will be a format defining deck if it's not nerfed, moreso than Vial Goblins ever thought about being. Every deck in existence will have to change somewhat to try and hang with Hulk Flash, and some decks will fall from popularity entirely as a result. This might even top what Skullclamp Ravager Affinity was to Type 2 for awhile.
Also, I think I'll start playing Extended if this deck stays around. My entire love of Legacy is that no single deck can dominate it. Hulk Flash is better than 60% against everything I've played it against so far, including a Mono Blue Fish deck with maindecked Force/Misdirection/Foil/Trickbind. The deck is stupid. I'm ashamed to run it.
I agree. I refuse to play the deck and will stop playing or just switch formats until it is changed, or just refuse to play against. The people that know me know I enjoy combo decks, but this deck takes to skill to play (past literacy) and trumps every deck that exists. Wizards had better not wait until the first of June.
I'm super-pissed like a ninja about this whole Flash errata thing. I spent the last month preparing for Kadi's DLD by building and testing a non-Flash, non-Future Sight version of this deck that kicked its own share of butt by no later than turn three, with disruption available. At the last minute, the errata was revealed,and now everybody and their brother is on the Flash bandwagon. In the end it didn't matter that much, since a family issue prevented me from going to the DLD anyway.
In any case, if you are one of the people running the Kiki-Jiki/Karmic Guide combo, drop the Sky Hussar and open up a deck slot - all you need is the Carrion Feeder that is already part of the decklist to attack for infinte:
- Kiki-Jiki(KJ), Karmic Guide(KG), and Carrion Feeder(CF) in play. No haste for KG and CF; KJ inherently has haste.
- Activate KJ ability targeting KG. Do not pass priority.
- Activate CF ability, saccing KJ -> graveyard. CF ability resolves.
- KJ ability resolves, put a KG-Token into play (with haste).
- KG-Token triggered ability resolves - return KJ to play. Rinse and repeat.
- Don't bother saccing KJ in the final iteration of the loop. Bring whatever you want back with the last KG-Token created (Protean Hulk would be the obvious target).
- Attack with an arbitrarily large number of hasty Karmic Guide Tokens.
Yep.
With Massacre in your sideboard, it seems like this matchup would be a... what's the word I'm looking for here? Oh, right.
Joking aside, I think that decks like Fish, Landstill, and Thresh would likely make up a large percentage of the metagame if Flash stays legal. Combo will make up most of the rest, and black-based aggro-control will make up the remainder. As far as I can tell, there's not a lot of room for much else in this paradigm.
I did play the format at the time, and I don't think this is really an apt comparison for a few reasons:
1. The format was woefully undeveloped and unsupported in an official capacity. If Legacy seems like a casual format now, you should have seen it then. People didn't always play the most optimal, broken decks because there wasn't really incentive to.
2. Powered Dragon cost a fortune, thanks to 4x Bazaar of Baghdad. Very few people could afford to construct the deck properly, and again, why would you spend a fortune investing in cards for a deck in a format with almost no tournaments?
3. Although Dragon was insanely powerful, there were other decks with similar power levels. For example, Landstill had unbanned Mana Drains to back its Force of Wills. Artifact Prison had unbanned Workshops. Goblins had unbanned Recruiter, which means even the format's aggro deck could win on turn 2.
4. Dragon was actually easier to hate on than Flash is, by quite a lot. Wasteland, Swords to Plowshares, Tormod's Crypt, and even Blood Moon were enough to beat it, and those cards were as prevalent then as they are now. I think it's wrong to say Hulk Flash is as powerful as Dragon was. I think it would be more accurate to say that it's more powerful than Dragon was. It's technically faster (it can win before turn 1), it loses to less kinds of hate, and the hate it does lose to is far less prevalent.
In short, I don't think people are being unreasonable when they say that this combo is insanely powerful, perhaps too much so for the health of this format. I think the format could survive an unbanned/errata'd Flash, but I'm not sure it should.
This is another conversation I think we should be focusing on. Is the Disciple/Wall combo better, or is the Karmic Guide/Jeek combo better? The former doesn't lose to StP of Pithing Needle and wins at instant speed, where the latter takes up less deck slots. I'm strongly inclined to say that inherent resilience to hate prevalent cards and the lack of need for the attack phase is worth the extra few slots in the deck. How do others feel about this?
I stated before that I think the incredible resiliency of the 11 card combo makes it well worth running over the Karmic/Jiki combo. I think that being impervious to the most widely played hate in the format is better than having 5 extra deck slots. With Disciple/Wall, as soon as Flash resolves, there's nothing your opponent can do to keep 20+ Disciple Triggers from hitting the stack. Due to state based effects, the triggers go on the stack, then players get priority. Am I the only one who thinks this is freaking crazy?
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When did this errata take effect, and how many people are going to try smashing GP Colombus with this?
EDIT:
In other words, this format will turn into Vintage Lite. Wonderful.
Last edited by Aggro_zombies; 04-30-2007 at 02:21 AM.
It took effect a week ago.
If Flash doesn't get re-errataed, Hulk Flash will be the most prevalent combo deck in Columbus. I wouldn't say that if it were at all complicated to play, but there is almost no learning curve for this deck. And it's cheap.
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Do people believe that this should be legal and un-erratad for the GP? I'm at the point where I want to start a Menendian/Shay style campaign to get this thing to return to its previous errata before the GP.
This is just a complete policy blunder on their part, IMO, if Flash was going to be un-erratad it should have been un-erratad with the rest of the power level un-errata at the least.
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