[Discussion] Hulk Flash

[Zork]

Street Wraith is to Pact for when you want a Mysticalled card now, or just to cycle.

Summoner's Pact only grabs green creatures.

[Eldariel]

Summoner's Pact only grabs green creatures.

Point taken, now I'll have to add some UG critter instead. Blah, stupidity.

[Symbolism]

MISSION: SIDEBOARD

Let's start discussing the sideboard in detail, because the maindeck is pretty much locked, regardless of the variant you're using.

I really liked the idea of the one-of Ronom Unicorn, in order to deal with enchantments. Let's discuss some other one-of two-drops that would help, to eat up the two mana remaining after dropping four Disciples. We're looking for maximum utility here, against whatever match-up is the worst (counters, Disciples and discard). I propose the following...

TRUE BELIEVER: This stops an opponent's Disciple triggers from resolving, and stops a Fling (or other killswitch) in response to my triggers on the stack (as happened to me at the GPT).

STERN PROCTOR: Better than Ronom Unicorn, as it deals with both enchantments and artifacts.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

MISSION: PROTEAN HULK SUBSTITUTE

What would be a good substitute for Protean Hulk, if it were to be banned? Or, to ask this differently, what is another way to break the errata on Flash? I propose using...

ACADEMY RECTOR: What enchantment would win you the game if you brought it into play in the first two turns?

GAMEKEEPER: What creature (other than Protean Hulk) would win you the game if you brought it into play in the first two turns?

[Happy Gilmore]

MISSION: SIDEBOARD

Let's start discussing the sideboard in detail, because the maindeck is pretty much locked, regardless of the variant you're using.

I really liked the idea of the one-of Ronom Unicorn, in order to deal with enchantments. Let's discuss some other one-of two-drops that would help, to eat up the two mana remaining after dropping four Disciples. We're looking for maximum utility here, against whatever match-up is the worst (counters, Disciples and discard). I propose the following...

TRUE BELIEVER: This stops an opponent's Disciple triggers from resolving, and stops a Fling (or other killswitch) in response to my triggers on the stack (as happened to me at the GPT).

STERN PROCTOR: Better than Ronom Unicorn, as it deals with both enchantments and artifacts.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

MISSION: PROTEAN HULK SUBSTITUTE

What would be a good substitute for Protean Hulk, if it were to be banned? Or, to ask this differently, what is another way to break the errata on Flash? I propose using...

ACADEMY RECTOR: What enchantment would win you the game if you brought it into play in the first two turns?

GAMEKEEPER: What creature (other than Protean Hulk) would win you the game if you brought it into play in the first two turns?

I think Protean Hulk is still the best win condition for this deck. The real problem with enchantments such as Solitary confinement is that they need to be delt with before you combo off. Ronin Unicorn won't help you because the disciple trigers target when they go on the stack, and since the only legal target is you they would fizzle as I understand it.

I think atleast 1 MD bounce spell would really help this deck.

As for SB:

you want something against Control/Agro control with counters

you want something vs the Mirror

You may also want an alternate win condition aka not flash.

If they play agro you have a bye, and since you have FoW and Daze you have an incredible ability to mess up other combo decks. All around its a solid combo package.

Edit: Flash would be the only card that would get banned, if only for the fact that it is an instant Armageddon with Titan.

[Illissius]

MISSION: SIDEBOARD
MISSION: PROTEAN HULK SUBSTITUTE

What would be a good substitute for Protean Hulk, if it were to be banned? Or, to ask this differently, what is another way to break the errata on Flash? I propose using...

ACADEMY RECTOR: What enchantment would win you the game if you brought it into play in the first two turns?

Form of the Dragon, Dovescape, and Humility are notable.

GAMEKEEPER: What creature (other than Protean Hulk) would win you the game if you brought it into play in the first two turns?

Gamekeeper-Salvagers combo works, and is probably the second thing I thought of after I learned of the unerrata. (Otherwise, Akroma, DSC, SSS...)

There's also Penumbra and Symbiotic Wurms.

[Firebrothers]

So at a tournement yesterday (april 29th) someone brought a similar version of this deck to play, not using any future sight cards. I thought that the flash errata was not legal untill may 20th like the gatherer says. Is this correct or is the flash card legal with the new wording now?

[Hanni]

After more playtesting, I've come up with the following list (I appologize if this is the same as someone elses list):

Hulk Flash

Lands (10)
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Island
1 Underground Sea

Creatures (16)
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Protean Hulk
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Shifting Wall
3 Phyrexian Marauder

Spells (34)
4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Flash
1 Echoing Truth
4 Pact of Negation
4 Force of Will
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal

I've yet to try the Gemstone Caverns/SSG/ESG list yet. I'm unconvinced that the turn 0 kill occurs often enough to matter and I think the Chrome Mox list offers more stability. I haven't tried it though, so I may be completely wrong and that list may in fact be far stronger. For now, this list has been golden for me.

[BreathWeapon]

Orim's Chant is heinous in this thing; on their turn cast Gemstone Caverns, RFG a card, then Orim's Chant them, go to turn one, Mystical Tutor for Flash during your upkeep, draw Flash, play a land, RFG an Elvish Spirit Guide, GFingG.

I'm not certain if Flash should be re-erratad or banned, but having Worldgorger Dragon and Hermit Druid on the banned list and not Protean Hulk is just nonsense.

[Cavius The Great]

Orim's Chant is heinous in this thing; on their turn cast Gemstone Caverns, RFG a card, then Orim's Chant them, go to turn one, Mystical Tutor for Flash during your upkeep, draw Flash, play a land, RFG an Elvish Spirit Guide, GFingG.

I'm not certain if Flash should be re-erratad or banned, but having Worldgorger Dragon and Hermit Druid on the banned list and not Protean Hulk is just nonsense.

I agree. The big debate though, is whether to ban Flash or Protean Hulk itself. What do you guys think?

[Zork]

Ban Protean Hulk, because no one uses it without Flash, but Flash could potentially be viable without hulk.

I'm thinking something with scepters and creatures with cip and gy abilities. Solemn Simulacrum, Rector, Gamekeeper, Symbiotes, etc.

[Cavius The Great]

Ban Protean Hulk, because no one uses it without Flash, but Flash could potentially be viable without hulk.

I'm thinking something with scepters and creatures with cip and gy abilities. Solemn Simulacrum, Rector, Gamekeeper, Symbiotes, etc.

The problem there is, Flash is still extremely broken even without Hulk. You can still get a first turn kill with Gamekeeper. I'm not saying the combo is better, but even if they ban Protean Hulk, people will still find broken stuff to do with Flash. I say start at the source of the brokenness and ban Flash altogether.

[android]

If anything, ban DotV. Flash could really open up the format and create more diversity but the card that allows the instant win is definitely Disciple.

[Volt]

Yeah, instead of banning Flash, let's figure out all the cards that are broken in combination with Flash and ban them, and then nobody will want to play Flash anyway. Yeah, that makes sense.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I've emailed Forsythe asking him to please take whatever emergency action is necessary to kill this combo immediately. I'm not sure if there's someone else that should be emailed, but if anyone knows, kindly fill me in.

If you look at my track record, I'm the very last person to play chicken little; but this combo will inevitably destroy Legacy if its allowed to exist. It's super fast, resilient to basically any hate that isn't Leyline of the Void, resilient to disruption, and it's not even fully tuned yet.

Godzilla is, if anything, under-stating this deck in comparison to fully-powered Dragon. Dragon lost to GY hate of any kind; Tormod's Crypt does nothing to this deck. Dragon lost to StP or Edict or Terror; this deck is impervious to creature removal. Dragon lost to Disenchant; this deck fears no permanent removal. Dragon lost to a host of hosers such as Ground Seal, Blood Moon, Night Soil, Soul Warden, etc., this deck fears, what? Stifle and Leyline and FoW? Not even Stifle if they get the turn 0 win.

Again, I encourage everyone with an interest in the health of the format to e-mail the appropriate figures and urge them to fix this problem immediately.

[android]

You mean like the Affinity bannings? I don't know if you are old enough to remember that.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

The problem is that banning DotV dicks over Affinity as collateral; simply banning Flash dicks over as-yet-uncreated-decks; one ruins the existing investments of many players, the other dicks over only future possible decks.

It would be better to simply ban Flash; either way, something needs to be done.

[frogboy]

FWIW the deck is good enough that I was planning to go to Columbus to play it.

On that note, OP: please die for bringing this to everyone's attention.

[Volt]

You mean like the Affinity bannings? I don't know if you are old enough to remember that.

I quit Type 2 because of Affinity. If for some reason Flash doesn't get banned or neutered, I will probably quit Legacy. I refuse to play in a format where your choices are "play this deck, or play something that beats it but loses to everything else."

[Cavius The Great]

It would be better to simply ban Flash; either way, something needs to be done.

Isn't that what I said 5 posts ago? People really need to stop ignoring me.

[frogboy]

ahahahaha you say that like decks beat Affinity.

I'm not terribly opposed to formats dominated by one deck because it's significantly more skill intensive than formats where your tournament is often determined by your pairings but whatever.