[Deck] Ichorid

[Cire]

Wait, I'm a little new to this deck, but is LED used only for the free discard? Other than that what's this deck's plan against small creatures that can sacrifice themselves, like mogg fanatic.

[edgewalker]

LED's are for playing DA's and Colesiums and getting you're entire hand in the yard. As for fanatic, yea, he's a problem, but hopefully we win before most decks can find him.

[Bane of the Living]

This deck wins on turns 1-2 and Fanatic is the problem? Is it just because it kills off one Ichorid or am I missing something? I thought Bridge was the decks primary kill condition now.

Daze seems like much more of an issue.

[MattH]

This deck wins on turns 1-2 and Fanatic is the problem? Is it just because it kills off one Ichorid or am I missing something? I thought Bridge was the decks primary kill condition now.

Daze seems like much more of an issue.

They can sac a Fanatic to RFG all the Bridges in your graveyard.

[BreathWeapon]

This deck wins on turns 1-2 and Fanatic is the problem? Is it just because it kills off one Ichorid or am I missing something? I thought Bridge was the decks primary kill condition now.

Daze seems like much more of an issue.

Because Mogg Fanatic RFGs all of your Bridge from Below from your graveyard, which is also the reason you can't remove Ichorid as an alternate win condition from your deck if you want to be able to fight against Goblins.

Counterspells aren't a big deal, assuming you are on the draw, you can just use your maximum hand size and Street Wraith in order to Dredge against them. You'll usually win game one unless they have Jotun Grunt, and in that case you just have to enter your scoop phase.

[Pinder]

This deck wins on turns 1-2 and Fanatic is the problem? Is it just because it kills off one Ichorid or am I missing something? I thought Bridge was the decks primary kill condition now.

Whenever a nontoken creature is put into your graveyard from play, if Bridge from Below is in your graveyard, put a 2/2 black Zombie creature token into play.
When a creature is put into an opponent's graveyard from play, if Bridge from Below is in your graveyard, remove Bridge from Below from the game.

Anyway, along those lines I was wondering if 1-2 MD Leylines would make any difference at all in protecting your Bridges. It also has the added bonus of helping out against Thresh, and also possibly in the mirror as well. I'm just thinking that at some point a 1st turn Mogg Fanatic is going to ruin your day. and with the maindeck Powders, you should be able to see it turn 0 (hopefully) reliably enough.

[Bane of the Living]

Wow I never got such a quick response by so many people. Ok thanks I forgot about that little clause. Leyline seems like the best option but would you really need it maindeck? The decklist seems so tight as is..

What about removing more Deep Anals for more Carefull Study? It seems to be the more important of the two since its what gets the ball rolling.

[BreathWeapon]

Wow I never got such a quick response by so many people. Ok thanks I forgot about that little clause. Leyline seems like the best option but would you really need it maindeck? The decklist seems so tight as is..

What about removing more Deep Anals for more Carefull Study? It seems to be the more important of the two since its what gets the ball rolling.

Really? I don't think I'd ever cut Deep Anal on the basis that LED + Cephalid Coliseum + Deep Anal is the deck's actual engine. How does Careful Study really do anything?

[Pinder]

Really? I don't think I'd ever cut Deep Anal on the basis that LED + Cephalid Coliseum + Deep Anal is the deck's actual engine. How does Careful Study really do anything?

Huh. I agree with BreathWeapon. Weird.

Careful Study is nice as a draw engine and a discard outlet (which this deck really needs), but I would never get rid of Deep Anals for them. Playing Analysis off of a freshly cracked LED feels like cheating. Also, once you start dredging up a storm, you aren't likely to actually draw into more draw spells, which is why the flashback is so important on DA. Being able to draw two cards for the low low price of 1U without it having to be in your hand is just crazy good.

Also, since the deck is splashing green, has any thought at all been given to LftL? I mean, it's better than Shambling Shell if you're going to run another dredge card, at least. It recurs Coliseums, which is nice, but it would mostly be there as another dredger, which I'm not entirely sure this deck needs after Troll/Stinky/Thug. But I would definitely put it in over the Shell. I mean really.

[BreathWeapon]

I don't think Life from the Loam is better than Shambling Shell unless you're actually abusing it by casting it and recurring Cephalid Coliseum, because Shambling Shell supports Ichorid and Golgari Grave Troll. Shambling Shell isn't the best card in the deck, but the additional Dredge, activations for Ichorid and +1/1 for Troll add up.

Could we design around LftL and Cephalid Coliseum like UberMadness?

[Awesomator]

Careful Study is the weakest Draw spell IMO but still a discard outlet and draws 2, 4 DA is necessary for quick kills.

[edgewalker]

Awsomator, would you say breakthrough>careful study? I've played alot of versions of this deck and I can never seem to like breakthrough, I hate drawing LEDs or other mana sources and having to pitch them to breakthrough

[MattH]

Awsomator, would you say breakthrough>careful study? I've played alot of versions of this deck and I can never seem to like breakthrough, I hate drawing LEDs or other mana sources and having to pitch them to breakthrough

So play your LEDs, then cast Breakthrough. Duh?

[KillemallCFH]

So play your LEDs, then cast Breakthrough. Duh?

I think he means that he hates drawing mana sources with the Breakthrough, and then not being able to use them because he has to discard them.

[edgewalker]

Matt, I mean you have no LEDs in hand, you breakthrough, draw lets say and LED and a colesium and then are forced to discard them. I don't know about everyone else, but that makes me die a little inside when I have to do that.

[Awesomator]

It depends on what you're playing against. Usually, once you get the hand in the graveyard you win, unless you're playing vs combo (Unless you hit therapies on dredge or are able to flashback the therapies next turn) or sometimes Goblins.

[Jaynel]

In Vintage Ichorid, you just need Bazaar + Dredge. In this deck, however, you need LED + Deep Anal + Dredge, or LED + Street Wraith + Cephalid Coliseum. I find myself mulliganing way too many times for my liking, often removing multiple Bridges, Ichorids, Narcomoebas, or Grave-Trolls. I don't think Serum Powder fits into this deck, but LED and Deep Analysis obviously belong. I feel like you really don't need to go busted on turn 1. You really don't have anything to worry about against aggro, because you have a MUCH faster clock and some disruption. You can race combo and, again, you have some disruption elements through Cabal Therapy. The control matchup isn't really a big deal, because you have so many discard outlets that a Dredge guy WILL find it's way to the yard eventually. There aren't many good decks that play maindeck Extirpate or Crypt. Graveyard hate during the first game really shouldn't be a problem. The problem I see with Manaless Ichorid is that it will get absolutely whomped by graveyard hate in games 2 and 3 and will just fold. Over the past few days, I've developed this from Manaless Ichorid:

// Semi-Manaless Ichorid
// Lands
4 [U] Underground Sea
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
1 [FS] Dakmor Salvage
4 [FS] Dryad Arbor

// Creatures
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [FS] Narcomoeba
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [TO] Ichorid
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [FS] Street Wraith

// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [US] Tolarian Winds
4 [FS] Bridge from Below
3 [TS] Dread Return
4 [TO] Deep Analysis

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 3 [VI] Emerald Charm
SB: 2 [U] Tropical Island
SB: 2 [ON] Wooded Foothills

Lands:
Maindeck Dryad Arbors are still being tested. They help ease strain on the sideboard when combating graveyard hate games 2 and 3. However, the manabase seems a little weird right now, and I'm sometimes having trouble getting black mana on turn 1 for a PImp. My old manabase was:

4 Deltas
3 Sea
1 Bayou
4 Coliseum
1 Dakmor Salvage

I might want to go to 3 Arbors and run a Polluted Delta (also good for games 2 and 3).

Dakmor Salvage has been good, and I wouldn't go more than 2 at the absolute most. It lets you get that second land for DA flashback and, strangely enough, has ALWAYS put awesome cards into the bin when I dredge.

Dudes:
Putrid Imp has been great for me. He's another cheap discard outlet and will usually get in for 3-6 damage. He flashes back Dredge Return in a pinch.

Flame-Kin is obviously nuts. 45 damage on turn 4? Sign me up. I think 1 is the right number.

Street Wraith is obviously good. Play LED, cycle Street Wraith, pop LED in response, DREDGE. Solid turn 1 play. Feeds Ichorid.

I don't run Golgari Thugs. I couldn't fit them into the list. I know they're really good, but I wouldn't know what to cut. If you guys could figure out where these can go in (or even if they need to go in), that'd be sweet.

Spells:
The only concern I've had is with Tolarian Winds. Sometimes it provides RETARDED turn 2 plays, but most of the time it just gets LED'd away because I have better options. Breakthrough might be better here.

Sideboard:
Oh, yes. This is where Semi-Manaless Ichorid shines. It can easily bring in the ENITIRE sideboard without diluting the gameplan too much.

If you sense Tormod's Crypt (or have looked at peoples sideboards on MWS), just go:

-1 Therapy
-3 Winds
+4 Chalice

and hope to drop that motherfucker as soon as you can at 0. Be careful with LED plays if you already have a Chalice out (i.e. savagely cheat and try to get an irreversable game state). Kidding about that last part. Just don't be stupid and drop Chalice then LED in your opening hand.

When playing against black, always expect the worst: 4 Leyline and 4 Planar Void. Side in the whole package:

-4 Therapy
-3 Winds
-2 PImps
-1 Sea
+4 Reverent Silence
+3 Emerald Charm
+2 Wooded Foothills
+1 Tropical Island

I'm not sure if the sideboarding is right. I don't know when it'd ever be appropriate to side out dredgers or other delicious cards like Bridge. If anyone with some more experience with the deck could help with siding, that'd be cool.

In conclusion, this deck is insane. Bridge from Below is absolutely nuts, LED is completely broken, and Dredge is stupid.

[Awesomator]

Tolarian Winds was something I have been trying out, but it makes the aggro control matchup much worse because of daze. The build you're playing can handle playing Winds. The deck doesn't need to go off turn 1 or 2, but it helps if you have a hand that can. Serum Powder doesn't belong in the deck I agree. I still prefer Breakthrough/Study to Putrid Imps because of the card draw value, not because they're better discard. Chalices might become needles, I'm testing them now.

EDIT: Breathweapon is a Turd

Warned for flaming. This is your second warning. Three warnings = an account ban.

-PR

[Bane of the Living]

EDIT: Breathweapon is a Turd

Yes, sadly this deck is everything Übermadness wishes it was. It drops fat guys into the yard to be played cheap/free with LED unfairness. This deck is much more immune to StP however since your not trying to beat down with a couple 6/6 and 4/4s, but a horde of zombies.

Im liking Jaynels list alot. Underground Sea > Lotus Petal. This deck is fast enough. I usually just want to petal to compliment LED so to cast 2 Deep Anals or provide protection from Daze.

Putrid Imp also seems very needed. Jay the only problem I have with your list is the heavy reliance on LED as the 'madness' outlet. In testing against Thresh all they needed to do was have the FoW for LED and then you were generally screwed. Breakthrough helps but I still want another option.


// Lands
4 Underground Sea
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Dryad Arbor

// Creatures
3 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Ichorid
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Street Wraith

// Spells
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
3 Dread Return
4 Deep Analysis
4 Breakthrough

[Jaynel]

Putrid Imp also seems very needed. Jay the only problem I have with your list is the heavy reliance on LED as the 'madness' outlet. In testing against Thresh all they needed to do was have the FoW for LED and then you were generally screwed. Breakthrough helps but I still want another option.

I do run Putrid Imps - 4 of them. But you're right, my only outs are Imp, LED, Winds (which eats Daze a lot), and Cephalid Coliseum (which isn't always threshed). There's always the techy play of not doing anything and dumping a dredger in your graveyard turn 2 (a la bad Reanimator).

@ everyone:
What do you think the best number of dredgers is? I run 8, and sometimes I feel like I want more. The list seems really tight though. Any opinions or experience with this?

@ Bane:
How has 10 lands been working for you? Do you ever miss the last Therapy? Has Breakthrough pulled its weight?