[Deck] Ichorid

[edgewalker]

@Jaynel, I find 10 to be the best number of dredgers. 8 is definately too little, and 12 would be awsome if we had the room.

[BreathWeapon]

EDIT: Breathweapon is a Turd

Is there a reason for this random and unprovoked flame that doesn't warrant a report to the moderators for its adolescence and inability to articulate anything of actual worth?

On to something constructive, I think it's important to use at least a full set of Golgari Thug, i.e. at least 12 Dredgers, in order to be certain that the deck has the odds it needs to draw at least 2 Dredgers for the LED/Deep Analysis play and simultaneously support Ichorid's with enough gas to be a reliable win condition. In this sense, I feel that Dredgers should get the nod over Street Wraith because of their general necessity for fueling the deck's explosive plays and the possibility that the Street Wraith isn't objectively doing anything the deck vitally needs.

How are Putrid Imps working out with only 4 ways of actually casting them?

[Bane of the Living]

Is there a reason for this random and unprovoked flame that doesn't warrant a report to the moderators for its adolescence and inability to articulate anything of actual worth?

On to something constructive, I think it's important to use at least a full set of Golgari Thug, i.e. at least 12 Dredgers, in order to be certain that the deck has the odds it needs to draw at least 2 Dredgers for the LED/Deep Analysis play and simultaneously support Ichorid's with enough gas to be a reliable win condition. In this sense, I feel that Dredgers should get the nod over Street Wraith because of their general necessity for fueling the deck's explosive plays and the possibility that the Street Wraith isn't objectively doing anything the deck vitally needs.

How are Putrid Imps working out with only 4 ways of actually casting them?

Calling you a turd is probably his way of saying changing the deck into Übermadness is a bad idea. I hope you dont get offended by being called a turd. Its not like he called you a turd-sandwich or a turd-burgler. Just a turd.

Putrid Imp is very hard for me to cast right now so Im thinking of dropping them again and going with additional Carefull Studies. A slot is basically needed to just get the ball rolling. Blue needs to be primary due to Coliseum.

Tolarian Winds I actually want to try sbing against decks not running counterspells. Its just not worth it otherwise. It helps dredge a massive amount early against goblins to focus on a Dread Return Troll win or multiple Ichorid attacks. Bridge from Below can maybe come out for it. It doesnt seem like we'd be able to keep it out well enough, or is that course of action still reliable? Ive been testing mostly against Thresh; and btw Tarmagoyf is a serious threat to this deck.

[Binary Star]

Somebody should upgrade this to the open forum.

[Bane of the Living]

In this sense, I feel that Dredgers should get the nod over Street Wraith because of their general necessity for fueling the deck's explosive plays and the possibility that the Street Wraith isn't objectively doing anything the deck vitally needs.

BTW Street Wraith is at his absolute best in this deck. I dont understand how you can climb into a belcher thread and declare it the king of cards when here it has the most functionallity.

The decks most basic play is to play and activate LED with SW's on the stack. Dredging your first couple guys this way for free is key. Every 'draw a card' in this deck powers it up. The only other 'free' dredge you have in the deck is your draw phase and we're aiming for manaless remember?

Lets not forget how much better it is to revive an Ichorid with SW rather than Stinkweed and Thug.

[BreathWeapon]

BTW Street Wraith is at his absolute best in this deck. I dont understand how you can climb into a belcher thread and declare it the king of cards when here it has the most functionallity.

The decks most basic play is to play and activate LED with SW's on the stack. Dredging your first couple guys this way for free is key. Every 'draw a card' in this deck powers it up. The only other 'free' dredge you have in the deck is your draw phase and we're aiming for manaless remember?

Lets not forget how much better it is to revive an Ichorid with SW rather than Stinkweed and Thug.

Because in Belcher Street Wraith is better than the cards its replacing, while in Mana-Less Ichorid it's removing cards that have an equal or abstract comparitive value such as Shambling Shell, Ashen Ghoul, Tolarian Winds, Zombie Infestation, Putrid Imp, Unmask, Force of Will etc. It's a lot more difficult to include Street Wraith in a deck where Street Wraith is replacing a card that could be objectively better even if it isn't directly comparable. I understand that Street Wraith is a perfectly good card, but it's absolutely the last card I would add until I was certain that the rest of the deck's needs were met.

[Bane of the Living]

Because in Belcher Street Wraith is better than the cards its replacing, while in Mana-Less Ichorid it's removing cards that have an equal or abstract comparitive value such as Shambling Shell, Ashen Ghoul, Tolarian Winds, Zombie Infestation, Putrid Imp, Unmask, Force of Will etc. It's a lot more difficult to include Street Wraith in a deck where Street Wraith is replacing a card that could be objectively better even if it isn't directly comparable. I understand that Street Wraith is a perfectly good card, but it's absolutely the last card I would add until I was certain that the rest of the deck's needs were met.

Did you read anything I posted or did you just scurry to a counter arguement? I understand your reasoning for including it in a belcher list. But do you understand the reason why its actually functional in this deck? The free dredge is irriplacable. When the decks goal is to maximize the threat density and dredge capacity the card only compliments your strategy.

Unmask and Force are terrible in the deck. I wouldnt want to add 4 Forces over draw spells or therapies since both are more synergistic to the deck. Therapy allows you to trigger Bridge and put Narcomeabas to good use. I wouldnt want to pitch Deep Anal to Force and I feel the same for Breakthrough. The decks goal is to pitch its hand with LED which completely backhands the strategy of holding force for the key spell.

Zombie Infestation and Tolarian Winds are generally too slow for the deck at this point. We have better options (LED, Bridge).

Shambling Shell is absolutely terrible. Theres a small chance you can actually cast Thug and Stinky to get back Street Wraith or chump block something big. Shambling would be dredger 13-16 which is unneeded and worse than the other 3 options.

Ashen Ghoul is terrible in the deck. He's situational, slow, and requires mana. You realize Ichorid isnt even the primary win condition anymore?

As far as I can see the only cards that have a chance of making it are Dryad Arbor, Carefull Study, Cephalid Sage, Putrid Imp, and Lotus Petal.

[Jaynel]

This deck is far from ready for Open.

@Bane

I agree with all of your points, except the one about Careful Study over Putrid Imp. Sure, you can cast Study off of 8 out of 10 lands, but it's only a one shot deal. Putrid Imp is AMAZING because it's a discard outlet that can be used over and over again. I've found myself Dread Returning a Putrid Imp just so I can have a steady discard outlet on the table. Pitch a dude during upkeep to give the PImp flying, then dredge in draw step is such a good play, especially when you can do it for a few turns until you get better options in your yard (i.e. Flashback DA or just win with tons of hasty 3/3s). Breakthrough is a good enough "Careful Study" for this deck if you're interested in one-shot deals to dump some cards in the yard and maybe dredge. Imp also gets Threshold really fast and gets in for some damage in the early game. Sure, you won't always have PImp and a black mana source, but if you don't then you probably have better plays in hand. PImp can always feed Ichorid once it gets discarded or dredged.

To summarize in a neat pros and cons column:

Pros:
Putrid Imp

Cons:
Careful Study

Okay, seriously. Here it is:

+ Putrid Imp:
Swings for 2
Multiple discards
Incredibly useful in the early game
Moderate use in the late game
Feeds Ichorid

- Putrid Imp
No draw effects = no dredging
Need black mana to play


+ Careful Study
Cast off of blue mana
Draw effects = dredge
Incredibly useful in the early game

- Careful Study
Does absolutely nothing in the graveyard
Useless in the late game
One time discard effect

I think PImp is the right choice.

[BreathWeapon]

Did you read anything I posted or did you just scurry to a counter arguement? I understand your reasoning for including it in a belcher list. But do you understand the reason why its actually functional in this deck? The free dredge is irriplacable. When the decks goal is to maximize the threat density and dredge capacity the card only compliments your strategy.

Unmask and Force are terrible in the deck. I wouldnt want to add 4 Forces over draw spells or therapies since both are more synergistic to the deck. Therapy allows you to trigger Bridge and put Narcomeabas to good use. I wouldnt want to pitch Deep Anal to Force and I feel the same for Breakthrough. The decks goal is to pitch its hand with LED which completely backhands the strategy of holding force for the key spell.

Zombie Infestation and Tolarian Winds are generally too slow for the deck at this point. We have better options (LED, Bridge).

Shambling Shell is absolutely terrible. Theres a small chance you can actually cast Thug and Stinky to get back Street Wraith or chump block something big. Shambling would be dredger 13-16 which is unneeded and worse than the other 3 options.

Ashen Ghoul is terrible in the deck. He's situational, slow, and requires mana. You realize Ichorid isnt even the primary win condition anymore?

As far as I can see the only cards that have a chance of making it are Dryad Arbor, Carefull Study, Cephalid Sage, Putrid Imp, and Lotus Petal.

You missed the point, I wasn't advocating that those cards should replace Street Wraith, but that there are other cards to consider in Street Wraith's place and that the answer isn't as clear cut as you would make it seem. Under the premise that the point of Street Wraith is to maximize the deck's Dredge capacity, is there really a clear indication that it's superior to Shambling Shell or Cephalid Sage at Dredging or Careful Study at setting up your Dredge?

You realize that what I'm getting at when I say that a hand that has GGT and Street Wraith isn't necessarily as good as a hand with GGT and Thug when you are popping LED/DA, right?

[Bane of the Living]

You missed the point, I wasn't advocating that those cards should replace Street Wraith, but that there are other cards to consider in Street Wraith's place and that the answer isn't as clear cut as you would make it seem. Under the premise that the point of Street Wraith is to maximize the deck's Dredge capacity, is there really a clear indication that it's superior to Shambling Shell or Cephalid Sage at Dredging or Careful Study at setting up your Dredge?

You realize that what I'm getting at when I say that a hand that has GGT and Street Wraith isn't necessarily as good as a hand with GGT and Thug when you are popping LED/DA, right?

Im sorry I thought you were recommending other cards for the Street Wraith slot and still seem to be. Where do you get the idea he needs to go? None of us have been complaining about him in the deck. Infact he's MvP if you ask me.

He maximizes dredge capacity because he draws a card for free, letting you do other things with your mana such as cast Breakthough or activate Coliseum. Stuffing 16 dredge creatures into the deck wont make it work better, you'll just get stuck with too many and no business spells. Chephalid Sage needs to be in the bin already and get Dread Returned to be of any use. A turn one staple dredge enabler is far more important and I see no need to further debate his automatic inclusion as a four of.

A hand with GGT and SW is much better than GGT + Thug hand. With GGT/Thug you pop LED and discard them then either wait till your next draw phase or hopefully had a Deep Anal as well. A hand with GGT + SW can immediatly dredge 6 cards by putting the SW on the stack and popping LED. You'll usually chain into several dredge cards this way anyways.

[Bovinious]

I've been trying a version of this deck out on MWS, and to me it seems horribly inconsistent compared to just regular Friggorid. I mean sure if you draw LED, DA, dredger and u get LED and DA to resolve sure ull prolly win turn 1-2, but even with Serum powder to find LED/DA I dont see how this deck is consistent at all too often I have to mull to oblivion. Maybe its the list i was running (mine was similar to what is on the first post). Some other versions here that add more mana and 1 CC spells/Imps seem like theyre trying to do too much with both Friggorid like stuff and LED, seems like you would be better off playing Friggorid. Am I missing something?

[BreathWeapon]

Im sorry I thought you were recommending other cards for the Street Wraith slot and still seem to be. Where do you get the idea he needs to go? None of us have been complaining about him in the deck. Infact he's MvP if you ask me.

He maximizes dredge capacity because he draws a card for free, letting you do other things with your mana such as cast Breakthough or activate Coliseum. Stuffing 16 dredge creatures into the deck wont make it work better, you'll just get stuck with too many and no business spells. Chephalid Sage needs to be in the bin already and get Dread Returned to be of any use. A turn one staple dredge enabler is far more important and I see no need to further debate his automatic inclusion as a four of.

A hand with GGT and SW is much better than GGT + Thug hand. With GGT/Thug you pop LED and discard them then either wait till your next draw phase or hopefully had a Deep Anal as well. A hand with GGT + SW can immediatly dredge 6 cards by putting the SW on the stack and popping LED. You'll usually chain into several dredge cards this way anyways.

I never I said that I thought that Street Wraith should be removed from the deck, I said that I don't think that Street Wraith should be the first card in the deck, and it's not clear to me that he's better than the alternatives. I don't think that Dredger + Street Wraith is better than 2xDredger tho', because with an average Dredge of 5 there's a strong chance that you'll miss another Dredger in your discard pile and that Dredger may miss a Dredger etc. Shambling Shell has really saved my ass in numerous instances because of his odd Dredge, and that's the reason I'm really hesitant to cut him. Your mileage may very, but I think getting 2 Dredgers in your hand is more important than getting a Dredger and a Street Wraith with the way the original deck was built.

[Tacosnape]

You realize that what I'm getting at when I say that a hand that has GGT and Street Wraith isn't necessarily as good as a hand with GGT and Thug when you are popping LED/DA, right?

Um, not necessarily.

With a hand of LED/Deep Analysis/Wraith/GGT, you can do the following:

1. Play LED
2. Announce the cycling Street Wraith.
3. Crack the LED in response to the cycle, floating blue mana and discarding Golgari Grave-Troll Deep Analysis.
4. Dredge the Golgari Grave-Troll off the Street Wraith's trigger, rolling you six cards into your graveyard. Chances are you'll roll into at least one more dredger off this.
5. Play Deep Analysis, dredging if you got the extra dude.

[Bane of the Living]

BreathWeapon perhaps you'd like to reveil your list to us. Im curious to see what it looks like if its running 13+ dredge creatures. You dont really need to dredge other dredge cards into the bin as much as just business cards and this is why we use SW so effectivly. He allows for the earliest possible dredging. Theres a huge difference between starting a game with and without him.

What do you guys think about Phantasmagorian? He helps you discard everything and rfg's to Ichorid.

[Awesomator]

phantasmagorian is decent, but I doubt it's better than any of the slots currently in. Good job breathweapon.. Street Wraith shouldn't be the first card in the deck.. bridge from below should be.

[BreathWeapon]

BreathWeapon perhaps you'd like to reveil your list to us. Im curious to see what it looks like if its running 13+ dredge creatures. You dont really need to dredge other dredge cards into the bin as much as just business cards and this is why we use SW so effectivly. He allows for the earliest possible dredging. Theres a huge difference between starting a game with and without him.

What do you guys think about Phantasmagorian? He helps you discard everything and rfg's to Ichorid.

This is the rough list I'm using,

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Underground Sea
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dread Return
4 Deep Analysis
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 (Open)

And from there I shift the open slots in between Shambling Shells, Street Wraiths, Cephalid Sage/Flame Kin Zealot to figure out what's the best Dredge card in that slot.

[Bovinious]

@ BreathWeapon: I was playing a list very similar to yours today on MWS with pretty good success, but I was wondering why there are 4 Underground Sea, wouldn't they just be better off as Islands so wasteland doesn't hurt as much? the only use I can see black mana having is MAYBE hardcast cabal therapy once in a while but that seems like a really desperate situation to be in, almost worse than EOT discard on urself, altho you could use on opponent too...Is there any black in yalls sideboard or are the Useas just in there for therapy?

[BreathWeapon]

I don't care if the opponent Wastelands the land, because as long as that land resolved Breakthrough, it did its job against Goblins. I do care that if I have a Cabal Therapy in hand, I can cast it to protect the outlet from Force of Will as opposed to discard/dredging and letting my opponent find a Jotun Grunt or Tormod's Crypt.

So I guess to sum it up, what is Wasteland hurting?

[Bovinious]

I was thinking maybe you would want it to stay around if you drew a hand with Land, Coliseum, Careful Study, in some cases wasteland could inhibit you from activating the Coliseum turn 2, or in some rare cases for the cause of flashing back DA with 2 lands. I guess these situations would come up even less often than Therapy being useful from the hand, so maybe it is worth it.

[Bane of the Living]

Ive been using Therapy on myself quite a bit. Sometimes Ill get stuck with 2 Bridge in my hand or have my Grave Trolls in hand with Dread Return ready to get him into play. Being able to actually cast it is more significant than Wasteland.

Meddling Mage on Deep Analysis hurts this deck alot. Heres my updated ever changing list yet again..

4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Underground Sea
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Breakthrough
2 Putrid Imp
1 Flame Kin Zealot
4 Dread Return
4 Deep Analysis
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Street Wraith

Im testing Chrome Mox over more lands and petals since theyre perm mana sources and still allow you to activate Coliseum turn one. Its usefull to imprint Narcomeabas and such. The couple extra Putrid Imps are nice discard outlets. Still not sold on this list tho. =/