[Discussion] Combo Summer- Coming Soon?

[Illissius]

You forgot to mention that Landstill beats Threshold/Fish and has quite a good match against combo too.

Sigh. "with many other viable decks also in the mix". This wasn't meant to be an exhaustive analysis of the Legacy metagame. Did it seem that way?

[Nightmare]

We literally just got rid of Flash. Actually, Wednesday we get rid of Flash. At the same time, we got 2 relatively harmless cards taken off the banned list. This is the single biggest change in Legacy's short history, and yet people are still griping about banning cards? What's wrong with you people? This format is perfect right now. Good combo decks have edged Solidarity out of the spotlight, and forced Goblins to change its game, making control viable again. Aggro-control is good as ever. Goblins isn't dominating, but still holds strong. Combo is fun, consistant, and not overpowered. What more can you ask for?

Ban Empty the Warrens... I swear, you guys always find something to bitch about. Brush the sand out of your vaginas and metagame. It isn't broken like Flash, it's broken like Force of Will. Run some answers already.

[nightshade81]

It isn't broken like Flash, it's broken like Force of Will.

QFT

[BreathWeapon]

@Illissius

Banning Empty the Warrens to decrease the speed of the format isn't even achieving its objective, because the format is going to have turn one wins as long as Goblin Charbelcher and Infernal Tutor are legal, and even then Wish + LED still has good odds of ending the game.

WOTC unbanned Lion's Eye Diamond, Chrome Mox and Lotus Petal for a reason, they had to have known that they'd contribute to the speed of combo in any format. All banning Empty the Warrens will do is weaken combo, which seems to be people's actual objective, and not reduce the speed of combo. If you want to legitimately reduce the speed of combo, you have to target the mana sources, because clearly WOTC has no qualms about printing new win conditions, but you can bet your ass you'll never see another Lion's Eye Diamond.

Regardless, nothing needs to be banned right now, control is playable and Goblins is a glass cannon, that's the sign of a healthy metagame to me.

[Xero]

There is a fair number of big Legacy tournaments in the near future: GenCon, 2 Dual-land drafts, the Meandeck Open. Why can't we wait a few months to see if Combo is really dominant or broken before calling for bannings?

[blacklotus3636]

Quote by kabal kun:
Quote:
Originally Posted by blacklotus3636
Almost all the same tools that is good against lackey is good against ETW.

Pinpoint creature removal is good against ETW? Wow. I've been missing out. Mass removal will effect both, but the problem is "Will you be able to cast your board clearer in time?"

Don`t you just love it when people pick one sentence out of an entire story, warp it to make it sound ridiculous, then turn around and act like your the jackass? I think everyone knew what I meant when I said that but some people like to pervert things to suit their own ends. If you really want to talk about what I wrote then why don`t you address the actual point I was making in the post? In short I made the argument that lackey and warrens are on the same power level. I think most reasonable people would concede on both sides that this is at least somewhat true. If you concede that this is true then why are you not lobbying for the banning of lackey? If you lobby for one cards banning and not the other that is on the same power level then your just trying to force the metagame to be what you want rather than what is healthy. I think everyone who is calling for the banning of warrens should take a long hard look at themselves and their motives for wanting to ban warrens.

[matelml]

People want to ban Warrens instead of Lackey because they don't mind as much being beaten by a horde of normal goblins then by "combo" goblins. This is because combo decks seem to have less interaction with the opponent and you die instantaniously or (almost) inavoidably in the case of EtW. People don't think this is fun. So even though the power might be around the same level, they want to ban EtW instead of Lackey. I love combo so I don't agree, however I do think this is not a bad reason. Magic should be fun and that means cards should be banned if they are too good, because a diverse metagame is fun, but also I can see cards being considerd banning because of making "unfun" decks popular/good. I like playing combo but can see why a combodeck shouldn't be the best deck in the format because people don't like that.

[Bahamuth]

While I agree that combo isn't anywhere near being overpowered, I do not agree that playing against combo always has to be boring. If you do have an answer, and if the combo player might have an answer to your answer, the game can still be very interesting and skill-dependant.

[Berzerked]

Also, for all the people bitching about combo making the meta not fun, what exactly is your definition of fun?

Obviously winning is fun, but apparently losing isn't, because that's when you turn into sore losers.
I have fun playing Magic, whether I win or lose, and I have fun designing and teching decks made for not losing.
If you only have fun when you're rolling your opponent, or it's a really close game, then go play casual. Or is that not competitive enough?

[Sims]

I'm not calling for ETW being banned, but I do want it and the combo pieces watched.... we know combo can suddenly find 1 card and then just be absolutely broken. I don't think combo is busted now, but I think an eye needs to be kept on it, as if that catalyst is found something will need to be done.

As for reasons why people don't like ETW but don't mind Lackey:

Most people don't mind running Swords to Plowshares, because spot removal is rarely dead.... People do, however, not like having to run cards like Sandstorm to stop 8-10+ Goblin tokens on turn 1.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

@Illissius

Banning Empty the Warrens to decrease the speed of the format isn't even achieving its objective, because the format is going to have turn one wins as long as Goblin Charbelcher and Infernal Tutor are legal, and even then Wish + LED still has good odds of ending the game.

WOTC unbanned Lion's Eye Diamond, Chrome Mox and Lotus Petal for a reason, they had to have known that they'd contribute to the speed of combo in any format. All banning Empty the Warrens will do is weaken combo, which seems to be people's actual objective, and not reduce the speed of combo. If you want to legitimately reduce the speed of combo, you have to target the mana sources, because clearly WOTC has no qualms about printing new win conditions, but you can bet your ass you'll never see another Lion's Eye Diamond.

Regardless, nothing needs to be banned right now, control is playable and Goblins is a glass cannon, that's the sign of a healthy metagame to me.

I don't think anyone is actually concerned with how fast the current combo decks can win. Sure, they can pull off a Turn 1 win, but that's going to occur extremely infrequently. Banning Empty the Warrens would simply worsen the consistancy of said combo decks, as that means it loses its alternate plan.

[revenge_inc]

Can somebody link me to the SI thread please.
I have searched the forums and failed to find the thread on this particular combo deck. (probably cauz I'm a fucking idiot)

[emidln]

Can somebody link me to the SI thread please.
I have searched the forums and failed to find the thread on this particular combo deck. (probably cauz I'm a fucking idiot)

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showt...t=58807&page=6

I would highly recommend looking at the 2nd to last post in the thread. I probably wouldn't play anything except very close deviations of those lists right now.

[revenge_inc]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showt...t=58807&page=6

I would highly recommend looking at the 2nd to last post in the thread. I probably wouldn't play anything except very close deviations of those lists right now.

Thanks for the link. (I only read Salvation for debates and water cooler talk....I was like WTF people innovate the Legacy format there?-lol)

The second-last post and the first one were very useful.

If this deck is as powerful as it seems to be on paper and is in fact a viable fast-storm-combo option, why isn't this deck on The Source?

[emidln]

Thanks for the link. (I only read Salvation for debates and water cooler talk....I was like WTF people innovate the Legacy format there?-lol)

The second-last post and the first one were very useful.

If this deck is as powerful as it seems to be on paper and is in fact a viable fast-storm-combo option, why isn't this deck on The Source?

I honestly didn't really like the source when I posted it there. I do most of my development over AIM/Blitzkrieg boards anyway, so discussion on these boards is more spreading information than anything.

[Di]

If this deck is as powerful as it seems to be on paper and is in fact a viable fast-storm-combo option, why isn't this deck on The Source?

There was a thread on here for the deck a while back, but for some reason I can't find it while doing a search on the deck. It's possible the name was different or something though, idk. Regardless, it seems to be the least-talked about combo deck because it is fundamentally worse than the others. The deck runs 8 dead cards (0cc creatures), which make those draw4's worse. It also happens to make those other creature dependent cards (Culling the Weak, Diabolic Intent if it's still run) very conditional. The deck isn't as consistent as TES or Belcher, and has a tougher time with control matchups, so it's difficult to believe why someone would run SI over one of those aforementioned combo decks.

[Jak]

I happen to think it could be a great combo. I mean, I hate the creatures and culling the weak, but a TES like build with draw 4s could be powerful. MAybe 3 colors. I think I will start a thread. Maybe.

[BreathWeapon]

There's nothing wrong with Draw 4 based combo, I think the basic problem with SI is that it screws around with 0cc creatures and Culling The Weak when it should just be adding tutors to find more acceleration or cantrips to build Threshold and slow down a turn. The real advantage of Draw 4s isn't their speed, it's being able to cast them against a counter wall and not lose.

[andrew77]

Actually most of you are wrong about SI. It is extremely consistant and extremely fast. Some versions kill, yes i said kill not combo to make goblins, turn one like 70 percent of the time. The reason people don't play SI is because it is a glass cannon like dredge. It might be nuts if you don't have hate, but any piece of hate and you lose. SI cannot win through chalice at 0 or trinishpere and has a lot more trouble beating a meddlingmage, pillar, or stifle than TES would.

BTW if you want to hose goblins play SI. I don't think it can even lose a game against goblins unless they get a chalice. Even then you can sit abck behind your creatures and just let chalice counter your 0 drops and tendrils for like 5 twice.

[matelml]

SI cannot win through chalice at 0.
(...)
Even then you can sit abck behind your creatures and just let chalice counter your 0 drops and tendrils for like 5 twice.

I believe there is a pretty big chance goblins has chalice in hand if they know what they are playing against game 2 and wouldn't the creatures you want to block with be countered by chalice? I don't think game 2 and 3 are going to be so easy with chalice, waste and port to slow you down and a fast clock next to it. I believe it's not a real bad matchup, but you can lose to goblins.

Some versions kill, yes i said kill not combo to make goblins, turn one like 70 percent of the time.

Maybe you are right but I have a hard time believing this. I mean, to kill on turn 1 you would probably need a dark ritual, a LED or more rituals, a draw4 but not too many and a manasource. I am sure you can come up with other hands that can win right away but the chances of having such a hand seem less than 70% even with taking mulligans to me. Can anybody confirm this? And has the deck put up any results?