I could never figure out what the appropriate situation is for wishing for Returns. All it seems to do is to inflate the storm count some more (and a lot of the times that is overkill, on top of that sometimes you run into an all-mana hand leaving you stuck), or if you know your opponent has ETW hate and need to dig out the Belcher (but then again you can just wish for tutor...)
I tried wishing for it sometimes in testing, but results weren't really awe-inspiring. In real games I've never wished for it.
I like it on hands where my Empty The Warrens would be less than inspiring. Like, just for S&G, I goldfished a few hands on MWS until I came up with this hand, on opening hand #4.Originally Posted by Lone Signal
Take a random opening hand like this, which isn't too uncommon:
Taiga
Burning Wish
Burning Wish
Lion's Eye Diamond
Elvish Spirit Guide
Simian Spirit Guide
Rite of Flame
If you go through the motions to Empty The Warrens here, you're only going to get 8 tokens (Rite, LED, Wish, ETW.) 8 might not be enough to kill here.
Now you -could- open with Taiga, SSG, Burning Wish here, grabbing whatever floats your boat, preparing to launch into ETW next turn. Or you could go through the Rite/LED/Wish motions and grab Diminishing Returns, launching you into a new hand. The hand it launched me into was:
Land Grant
Desperate Ritual
Seething Song
Empty The Warrens
Tinder Wall
Goblin Charbelcher
Chrome Mox
Not bad at all. From this point, using my floating Red, I could either continue the storm count here (Mox-5, Tinder Wall-6, Desperate Rit-7, Seething Song-8, ETW-9 for 18 Tokens), or I could go for the Belcher (though I'd be one mana short of activating it that turn.) Here I'd imprint the Grant on the Mox, Desperate Rit, Seething Song, Belcher. Next turn the Tinder Wall would allow me the 3 mana to activate it.
So to -me-, Diminishing Returns is there to help smooth out hands with lots of mana but without a lot of spells.
Also, say you hit a Belcher mirror. Your opponent goes first and manages ETW for 12. Your hand after you draw is:
Land Grant
Rite of Flame
Tinder Wall
Lotus Petal
Simian Spirit Guide
Elvish Spirit Guide
Burning Wish
Lion's Eye Diamond
Conventional logic here goes Land Grant for Taiga, ESG, Burning Wish for Cave-In, pitch SSG to Cave-In. You can also ETW for 14, giving yourself a slight edge. Diminishing Returns, however, gives you the option to make an interesting gamble: You can cast it hoping to get the Belcher and kill your opponent right off.
The most important thing about Diminishing Returns is that it forces the opponent to discard and redraw his hand, while increasing the storm count to 10+. Either the opponent doesn't draw another answer for Empty the Warrens, Empty the Warrens is too fast for their answer or you draw Goblin Charbelcher. It's also the best Wish target after an opponent has countered the rest of the deck's acceleration or threats and the deck needs to get back into the game with limited resources. Empty the Warrens for six in the mid game is laughable, but a Diminishing Returns can win the game on the spot.
Next to Empty the Warrens, Diminishing Returns is the best "business" card in the SB.
You must be kidding.
When I tested the R-G-B version I had quite some difficulties from time to time reaching 1 single black mana. And now you are seriously considering this? I have no possible way of fitting such a narrow answer in my sideboard. The only reliable way of reaching double blue is via LED which doesn't happen often enough to have dimnishing in your wish board.
I think if your opponent storms for X tokens, you have a more dependable answer with pyroclasm or something.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what's for lunch.
What version of Belcher are you running here? With CRET Belcher/2 Land Belcher, you'd land grant for the Bayou and remove the ETW for the mox imprint, next turn you drop the Bayou and have 0 chance of hitting a land, anmd in cast of a stifle you can go for the Belch next turn due to 3 permanent mana sources as opposed to 2 with the tinder sac.
I can't imagine too many scenarios where you wish WITHOUT an LED on the table. Generally you need the LED to help with mana for an ETW and to up the storm count.
Also Diminishing in the sideboard is more of a great when you have the chance type of card. It helps a lot when you have a hand with wish that wont give you a lot of storm, generally one with a lot of guides and/or moxen. So it dramatically increases your likelihood of going off on turn 1 with an otherwise subpar hand.
So what you are implying is that you need a LED to go off succesfully anyway?
I do not agree. I have had plenty of hands with 3 red rituals and 1 random spell going into empty the warrens turn 1.
Do you also try this play when you don't know what you're facing? You'll see a lot more force of wills coming your way in that case. Diminishing returns almost always burns up all your mana so they generally have to counter one accelerant then...
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what's for lunch.
If you walk into Force of Will on the play, you're going to lose the game any way. If you draw them into a Force of Will on the play, you've got floating mana, Land Grant->Taiga and Chrome Mox generating card advantage to off set it. Using Diminishing Returns is hand dependent, but if you do use it, you shouldn't be afraid of drawing them into a Force of Will. I'd definitely try to avoid using it on the draw tho', because drawing them into Force of Will, Stifle and Daze is a little much.
You really want Diminishing Returns in your SB, 1 SB card for another out isn't asking a whole lot, and Infernal Tutor is garbage any way.
At least Infernal Tutor is reliable and versatile in contrast to Diminishing Returns which is always a gamble.
But I don't see them in the same slot anyways. Tutor is a precise tool to get the job done: Upping stormcount slightly but reliable, finding a Belcher when EtW cannot be used.
Returns is for more desperate situations or shitty hands when you would loose anyways without it and can pull off a win with it.
TS Crew
No. I'm saying that LED is very common in Wish situations because you tend to need the mana it provides. If I look at a hand with Burning Wish I'm also hoping to see LED, if not it's pretty likely I've gotta reshuffle. You generally need an LED for a BW>IT combo anyways, so being dependent on the same card combo for DR isn't exactly far fetched.
As for the FoW, if you're playing a deck with FoW they've probably mulled into it anyways and in that case you're probably boned no matter what you do with Belcher. Also with only 4 Force of Wills possible in the deck you have greater chance of them NOT drawing Force/blue card off of DR than them drawing it. Who knows maybe they're a bad enough player that they'd be willing to risk drawing into another one, or you fizzling on your combo with DR and not counter it.
what does your wishboard look like if it has returns?
I am hoping for:
Card - Reason
Card - reason
etc.
The only reason I ask is taht I am running a similar list to a german player that top 8'd. It has 2 main deck Rituals and 2 Infernal Tutors and 1 in board. They are the only non R/G cards besides the artifacts. My slots are so tight due to the Xantid Swarms and already large Wish targets. I have the 4 Spree, 4 Swarm and then 7 1-ofs; and I can't imagine compedatively swaying from that for such a large gamble.
Or get stuck casting X tokens and your opponent with a full hand...
Or get stuck not drawing a kill condition and fizzle. While looking at 12 tokens...
Diminishing returns will always be a gamble whereas the result of your infernal tutor will always be predictable. Who claims you have to have an empty hand anyway to be able to use it? You can tutor up an extra accelerant for upping the storm count for example.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what's for lunch.
1 Empty The Warrens - Wish Target Kill Con
1 Diminishing Returns - Engine
1 Land Grant - Helps me win with Belcher or a way to get mana for a Dark Rit
1 Infernal Tutor - Engine
1 Tendrils Of Agony - Wish Target Kill Con
1 Hull Breach - Control Help
1 Shattering Spree - Control Help
1 Goblin War Strike - Wish Target Kill Con
1 Pyroclasm - Creature Control
3 Pyroblasts - Control Help
3 Xantid Swarm - Control Help
I keep mixing the 6 slots that Xantid and Pyroblast occupy. Haven't 100% settled on which cards to run to really help me out.
There are situations where you need to win out on a turn and goblin tokens just wont help. Diminishing Returns can be your ace in the hole here. Sure it's a gamble but sometimes you need to take risks.
And sure you can grab a 2nd LED or another Dark Rit or something but most times I need to use it to grab a win condition.
1 Empty The Warrens- Wish Kill Condition
1 Simplify- Enchantment Kill
1 Diminishing Returns- Helps you in a dead situation hand. Hands with acceleration + LED + Wish into a D. Returns is always a good play.
1 Cave-In- Kills Goblins and Zombies.... sounds good to me.
4 Shattering Spree- Theres a lot of Stax, Needles, and other nasty artifacts in my meta... This card is just plan amazing as an answer.
4 REB
3 Pyroblast- I use these game 2 if I see almost any Blue. It helps a lot. Its also pretty good with Diminishing Returns if your opponent is playing FoW.
It does pretty good for me.
Team Solo
Wow.... your sideboard is kind of weird. Land Grant in the sb!?!? If you are ever Burning Wishing for that, chances are you are in a bad position. Also, have you tried Cave-In over Pyroclasm? It is much easier to cast. Also, it looks like you have an AWFUL matchup against Stax variants and decks packing Chalice. You should up your Shattering Spree count because it is retarded, and cut the Hull Breach for a Simplify. IDK, your board just seems kind of all over the place.
Team Unicorn- "I'm Horny."
"The Wandering One" of Legacy.
"Glimmervoid, Go."
Land Grant is awesome in the SB. Ever have those hands where you have a Burning Wish and a Belcher? I run 2 land Belcher and it's always great to be able to wish for a Bayou, I only lose 1 mana through it and I get that card out of my deck for the belch.
And I don't seem to find myself in the position of having 3 red cards in my hand as much as the ability to get the appropriate mana.
Shattering Spree is good and something I've been toying with to get another in the deck.
Crack the Earth appears to be a viable sideboard option. In testing it seems superior to Duress. First turn EtW. Second turn Wish for Crack the Earth. This will stop most decks from reaching the 2 or 3 mana they need to cast their board sweeper and allows your horde a chance for that fatal second swing.
IMHO too random, often it will not work.
Why exactly is this better than first turn EtW, second turn Wish for Goblin War Strike, leaving the opponent at zero life?
Team SPOD[23:08:50] <@Anusien> You want me to actually test?
[23:09:02] <frogboy> I thought you already had
I don't know usually you won't have any mana producers and maybe only one card in hand after a first turn empty the warrens.
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