[Deck] Ichorid

[Bovinious]

I'm really at a loss here guys, I explained why the idea was awful (it wasnt even close to viable), and people are still talking about Lhurgoyfs here...I guess Ill just have to start ignoring this thread (like I have to ignore most...) if its going to be derailed with terrible ideas like this, the only person here whos posting I ever learn anything from is BaneoftheLiving anyways, and from what Ive seen from him and know myself, I know my version of the deck is pretty optimal already. So as long as this thread keeps getting derailed by non-sense Im gunna ignore it so I dont get my 3rd warning from flaming someone in here, this is getting rediculous.

Also, if the mods somehow want to call this post inflammatory and warn me for it that is fine by me, frankly Im fed up and have multiple computers anyway...

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Whats wrong with the Lhurgoyfs?

Lhurgoyf is awful because its basically the same as GGT which we already run, and its not really worth it at all to run 2 Lhurgoyf, 1 Sutured Ghoul, and 1 Dragon Breath over the FKZ kill.

I was joking when I suggested Lhurgoyf. It's a bad card. It dies to the hate that this deck would face. If you had to run a reanimation target that wasn't Flame Kin Zealot, it would be something like Simic Sky Swallower, an Akroma, or Sundering Titan.

I can't see any reason to run any thing other then Zealot, winning now is better then wining three turns later.

[Adan]

Can someone give be a definition of the EOT-Discard-Mode?

Somehow I'm not satisfied with the 2 possibilities.

Do you:

- draw to 8 card, then discarding every dredger turn by turn, topdecking into Land-Breakthrough when the Odds are good?

or do you:

simply dredge 6 cards every turn?

Against thresh for examble I'm not very satisfied with either the first or the second possibility, because it's slow and I once got raced by tarmogoyf because I had every cardtype in the GY.
I'm just too stupid to play Ichorid, so I need help!

[outsideangel]

Simply dredging 6 a turn CRUSHES thresh. Because your graveyard is essentially your hand (and in many cases better) it's almost like you're drawing five extra cards a turn, which is just absolutely retarded, and they can't do a damn thing about it because dredge can't be countered.

"Dredge, discard, go" puts a lot of pressure on the Thresh player because you've removed the "control" part of "aggro-control" and now they have to try to out-goldfish you, which is not something they're very well set up to do.

Eventually, though, you do want to switch gears. Ideally you want to see a couple Cabal Therapies in the yard, and try to catch them at a point where they can't play Counterspell. Then you Therapy away their control elements all in one turn and play your bombs (Breakthrough, Dread Return on Cephalid Sage) and just win the game from there.

It seems counterintuitive, but often this style of play can be faster than running out the first turn LED or Imp or what-have-you, because if your discard outlets get countered, either by Force or by Daze, you're going to be down 1-2 cards in hand, and it's going to take you at least another couple of turns to draw back up to where you can discard.

[Bane of the Living]

So Ive been preparing for the EPIC DLD in Oct, playing several games against Ceph Breakfast, Landstill, and Survival.

Survival has been shored up thanks to my hidden shit and better sb options. Landstill is nearly a round bye, Ceph is where it gets tricky.

I find myself with roughly a 50/50 game against them since they can combo as quickly as I and also have FoW. There are some games where you can Therapy them for the correct card (almost always Illusionist) but other times they have one of the tutors in hand and assemble combo on you. Sometimes they open with turn one Nomad, turn two Illusionist. Is anyone else playing this matchup rigorously?

Leyline of the Void makes the matchup insanely easy. They simply cant find the bounce and also combo before you smother them. I actually feel comfortable losing game one and stealing the next two for sure. Though it does make me wonder whether its worth exploring the option of maindecked Leylines again. I suppose this is a meta call but it helps with all the janky shit like goblins, affinity and survival as well. Thoughts?

[Jaynel]

I've also been wondering about squeezing Leyline of the Void in maindeck. It's such a bomb against so many decks, and it would make sideboarding for matches where it isn't needed very easy.

However, I think whatever you would have to cut would slow down the deck a lot. The problem is, Leyline is really only effective when 4 are run, to increase the chances of it being in your opening hand. I wouldn't want to cut any Ichorids, because they would be amazing with your Bridges from Below impossible to remove. I also wouldn't want to cut any discard outlets - Putrid Imp, LED, or Breakthrough. Cutting Deep Analysis would severly weaken the Dredge engine, and would also invalidate running LED to power it. You could eliminate the Dread Return package (which is ~5 cards) and run 4 Leyline + 1 something. In matches when you don't need Leylines (which is mostly fast combo like Belcher), you could side in the Dread Return package + Platinum Angel/disruption of your choice.

Edit: After some playtesting, Leyline of the Void proves to be a house against Cephalid Breakfast. That plus a fast clock usually means good game. Board out 1 Dread Return, 1 Golgari Thug, 1 DA, and 1 of any of the following: Ichorid, Golgari Thug, Breakthough.

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

Yesterday I played a tournament and got problems against Solidarity, Threshold and Uw Landstill (Moat and in the second game Crypt + Academy Ruins). I went 3-4-0 beating Belcher, Pikulla and Threshold and lost to Solidarity, Landstill, Threshold and 10-Land-Stompy (he was much faster and got a Turn 3 kill :( ). I think one problem was, that I never mulliganed, I should do it next time.

This was the list I played:
// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
4 [AN] City of Brass

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Thug
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
2 [TO] Cephalid Sage
4 [TO] Putrid Imp

// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [TSP] Dread Return
3 [TO] Deep Analysis
4 [TO] Breakthrough

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 2 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 [IN] Wax/Wane

I played just 3 Analysis, but I think it was wrong. Actually I'm thinking about Leyline main, it does really help I think.

Edit:
I think I will try this version now:
// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
4 [AN] City of Brass

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
1 [TO] Cephalid Sage
3 [TO] Putrid Imp

// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [TSP] Dread Return
2 [TO] Deep Analysis
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [GP] Leyline of the Void

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 2 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 [IN] Wax/Wane

[Jaynel]

(First, I'm just wondering: is this a European metagame?)

To which variants of Thresh did you beat/lose? I find that my matchup with UGr is pretty solid, and doesn't go down that much post board. Solidarity seems like it wouldn't be a bad matchup; it would probably favor Ichorid because of a speed advantage, lack of spells, and Cabal Therapy. However, you are kinda doing their job for them with the whole milling thing. Moat in game 1 against Landstill is kinda random; I wouldn't worry too much about that.

May I suggest Chalice of the Void over Pithing Needle in the sideboard? It preempts Tormod's Crypt and Engineered Explosives at 0.

[Bane of the Living]

It sounds like your inexperience with the deck lead to your loses. Its easy to see the busted plays with Ichorid but it isnt always clear what to do with the imperfections the deck will hand you. Mulligans to fast hands are key to beating decks with powerfull late games.

[Tacosnape]

What are the thoughts on an Ichorid build that runs a slightly higher land count to allow a large chance at getting 2 land and Tolarian Winds?

I've been finding in just screwing around with Goldfishing that Tolarian Winds resolved with a Grave-Troll in hand is game on that exact turn a little over 50% of the time with 5 cards in hand (On the play or on the draw with a play turn one), a little less than 50% with 4 cards in hand (On the play and you did something turn one), and about 90% of the time with 6 cards in hand (On the draw.) This gives Tolarian Winds a feel almost similar to Flash.

In any case, the results are generally devastating. Winds acts as both the discard outlet for your dredgers and the draw tool to make them go nuts.

[BeeblesofLife]

The only way possible to make that any good is to add petals. T.Winds is a great card don't get me wrong but by the time you play it you will have the same amount of dredging as a breakthrough. It could be good if you got it off turn one. If you are going that route use lotus petals, that would increase speed . I subbed my brass' with petals and they work out wonderfully in most cases.

[Illissius]

Winds would go hand in hand with Chrome Mox, I think.

[Benie Bederios]

Winds would go hand in hand with Chrome Mox, I think.

I tried that in old builds but that isn't that good. I mean if you start with 7 cards, you play land(6), play Chrome Mox(5) Imprint(4) and play Tolarian Wind(3) meaning discarding and drawing only 3. Breakthrough is better in that place, because it makes sure you get Threshold and probably giving you a dredger next turn.

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

It sounds like your inexperience with the deck lead to your loses. Its easy to see the busted plays with Ichorid but it isnt always clear what to do with the imperfections the deck will hand you. Mulligans to fast hands are key to beating decks with powerfull late games.

It was the second tournament with that deck. In my first one I could have made Top8 (with 5-2-0 and and old version with Wraith and Underground Seas), but I let the last guy I played against win because he had much better chances to get a good card (finally he was at the 4th place), so I went 4-3-0 and got the 19th place out of 69. I played the deck for about 3 mounth since this thread was started.

Okay, I think I've to learn how to mulligan with this deck ;).

(First, I'm just wondering: is this a European metagame?)

About 70-75% are controldecks (including aggro-control [Thresh, Baseruption and so on]), 15-20% combo and the rest is aggro.

To which variants of Thresh did you beat/lose?

I've won against U/G/r/w and lost to U/G/r (but this game was very close).


I've got a suggestion for the SB: Sundering Vitae :).

And this ist how my SB looks like at the moment:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Ray of Revelation
2 Sundering Vitae

[thejack]

At the moment I'm running Ichorid with the "old" manabase (I run 4 underground sea, 3 Watery Grave, 4 Cephalid Coliseum, 1 Dakmor Salvage).
This mana base has helped me win games in the threshold matchup because I was able to keep dredging up my Golgari thug to block the goyfs from my opponent while gathering enough zombies to swing for the win. If I had been using the manabase with city of brass and gemstone mines I wouldn't have been able to slow play like this.

The mana base I use has the obvious (and many times mentioned) disadvantage that it makes it impossible to run splash colour cards in the sideboard.

I was wondering if anyone here seriously tested using a mana base like mine and putting riftstone portal in the side? I have not yet had the chance of testing this but at first sight it looks ok. Can anyone here tell me why this can or can't work out?

[Silverdragon]

The biggest problemcard your sideboard has to deal with is Leyline of the Void so relying on the graveyard to deal with enchantments looks like a really bad idea. For artifacts (aka Tormod's Crypt) a card like Ancient Grudge works because you are actually able to get it into your graveyard to play it for G. Ray of Revelation is really good against random non-Leyline enchantments like Ghostly Prison, Solitary Confinement or similar stuff but against Leyline you can get neither Ray itself nor the Riftstone Portal to pay for it into your grave.
In case the primary hate you face is Leyline I'd prefer City of Brass -> Emerald Charm over anything else. In any other situation going with a more classic manabase (I'd prefer 4 Underground Sea 4 City of Brass 4 Cephalid Coliseum) seems at least equally good.

Maybe someone could test a sideboard like this:
4 Dryad Arbor
3 Emerald Charm
4 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Chain of Vapor

Dryad Arbor might be a good anti-Leyline card because if your opponent mulligans into Leyline you can go beatdown until you find an answer or at least buy more time by chumpblocking. Additionally it ups the creature count for Dread Return and the green count for Charm/Grudge.

[Nihil Credo]

Dryad Arbor might be a good anti-Leyline card because if your opponent mulligans into Leyline you can go beatdown until you find an answer or at least buy more time by chumpblocking.

Or it may get Plowed/Wasted/Bolted/whatever while you wait to topdeck the Charm, which then gets stuck in your hand. Basic Forests for the win.

[mixer]

Hello, decided it's best i'd stop lurking and give something back. Im gonna be playing this deck at only (big) legacy tourney in my country, metagame i expect consists traditionaly of aggro decks but i expect better players to bring fast clock combo decks to foil them. I spent most time learning to play with standard 5color manabase list however now im thinking about this:

// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [B] Underground Sea
1 [UNH] Swamp
1 [UNH] Island

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [TO] Putrid Imp

// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [TO] Deep Analysis
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [GP] Leyline of the Void

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
SB: 2 [TO] Cephalid Sage
SB: 3 [TSP] Dread Return
SB: 1 [JU] Wonder

Discussion:
1. How justified is to run 5 color manabase just for 2-3 rays/grudges in board as im not sold on emerald charm and similar stuff? i belive same thing charm does can be done by chain of vapor/therapy, am i wrong? Only what rays deal with i can think of top my head are Ghostly Prison (in practice, after board,i managed to go trough one with large troll more than once), Solitary Confinement (can be dealt, aldo less efficiently, with chain of vapor) and both of those arent really all that common.
Now with normal manabase you don't get some major changes but there are few small ones that add up:
-one more card in GY when fetching to reach ******** for coliseum
-improved resistance to wasteland
-less pain damage and lands that sick around instead of depleting
-one card less in library when fetching so your chance to dredge something useful improves
-ability to run wonder

2. MD leyines? how many games you won against non fast clock combo decks that you would lose if you did not have Dread Return package in main? Im really curious if anyone ever tracked this data. And against fast combo (breakfast, tes and mirror. belcher excluded) leyine in first game is goodtimes for you. also it hoses random stuff like deep analysis in madness, genesis...
Other matchups i expect:
***** - Leyline improves match slightly, i always sided Dread package out for needles anyways, this is attrition war for me.
Goblins - MD leyine improves your chanes
Affinity - Not sure what happens here as you lose one turn and their clock is fast but they lose ability to randomly own your bridges with ravager and like 2 ornithopters also disciple becomes chump blocker. I guess it stays the same, maybe a bit better.
i don't really expect much Stax (that possibly gets worse with leylines but than again it makes their crucible is useless) and survival (did not really test so i have no proper data).
Also with leylines in main instead dread package you get at least one free spot more, i upped number of thugs to 4.

3. Sideboard:Needles and chains are standard stuff, rest is dread package i'd board in against fast combo and ravager, any ideas where else? 2 sages ensure i win the same turn i start dredging for real. Wonder... im not sold on it but i it can be used against slower aggro deck that can't put ttheir own creatures in GY instead of Leylines. i'd replace it with something else but not sure what... i don't understand why would i use platinum angel if i could just go for the kill, am i missing something?


Im still not sold on this build but it might be worth a shot.

[Silthyn]

Personally, I couldn't care less if my lands are getting wasted. They lose their landdrop, and I've been able to do what I wanted to do (that is, resolving a Putrid Imp or Breakthrough). If you're on the play, then you should almost be happy when they play Wasteland. I am most of the time.

[Muradin]

I really like the idea of mixer's list. Maindecking leylines might be a quite good possibility to make this deck better against the most common form of hate that's being used against it: Killing your own creatures. But I think its wrong to cut the whole dread return engine from the deck simply because then you'll be missing ways to kill your own guys for a good sake. I guess there should at least stay 1-2 Dread returns in the main to get a troll in matchups where your opponent simply will not kill your non-ichorid guys. Otherwise you'll be sitting there with your bridges and your mighty 1/1 moebas in play without a possibility to transform the into many 2/2 zombies.

(In the build with 1 free slot and the island-manabase I strongly recommend to run the lonely wonder main.)