Originally Posted by C.P.
Which would be why you don't want to see it before the late game. In the late game, however, the loss is minimal (even if Lake gets Wasted) so long as you can capitalize on the acceleration. That's the real issue, really: can Sui capitalize on it? And that, of course, will depend on your build and your metagame.
The Wasteland argument, however, holds little to no water when you're talking about one land slot. It's also a conditional argument dependent on specific metagames, but Goblins' decline and combo's rise have taken a lot of pressure away from the manabase. Yes, it's still there (especially in the form of Landstill and Loam decks), but it's really not so bad in the wider metagame.
Meh, I still think its way to early to say Goblin's are on the decline. Wait a few months and then we can be much better informed.
I have finally come to terms with my deck waffling. Yesterday I hated my deck, today I love it... I think I am just going to stick with this puppy for a while. I am curious to everyone's perception on how this deck plays, and the overall fun-ness of the deck. To me, its multi-layered disruption plan and great beats make this quite a lovely deck to pilot. Is the enjoyment you get playing this deck the main reason you pilot it?
@ LordEvilTeaCup - I've always been fascinated with black since the beginning of the my Magic playing days. I imagine alot of it has just carried over through the year. Mono-black in particular just makes me hot. Black is the one color that really rewards you for going mono-color. I've always loved discard, black suicidal aggro, life draining effect, and reanimation. Don't know much about what it is... actually I'll take a shot at it. I like aggressive decks that keep games short, fast and furious, with alot of action packed in a very small space. Black tends toward this accepting mono-black control which is my least favourite of the mono-black builds.
I would also guess that part of the reason I play these decks is because I'm so use to them. They're comfortable. I know mono-black inside and out and I feel well versed in the theory. Toss me in a discussino about Landstill and I wouldn't know a damn thing. As is I've memorized every discard effect available, and I know that Vebulid is totally cool, but really only works in a suicide black deck that also runs Hatred. Ummm... so yeah, my enjoyment and my ability to pilot the deck competently are pretty much the motivators.
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I haven't had the chance to play 43lands against this deck. How is the matchup? I would guess that suicide black does better than most aggro decks against 43lands, but 43lands was built to crush aggro. Would a full complement of Sinkholes and Wastelands make it a favorable matchup? In my experience Landstill has a poor game against suicide black. To much disruption back by too many huge beaters than can be slow-played quite effectively if necesarry. But 43lands plays quite a bit differently.
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@ JakeH - I'd have to agree with everyone else that the fetches are a little out of place. I assume you're running them to thin your deck, but it's really not necesarry. The life loss can be a concern, the shuffle effect of a fetch is really irrelevant, and even though it is a slight concern, stifle and goyf are not pleasant with fetches. As threshold is probably the best deck and the most common deck in the format, slight advantages like this can add up. If you're really trying to thin your deck and not worried about the life loss, drop atleast 2 land and add in Dark Confidant.
@ Tacosnape - Heh.
I'll concede the card isn't dead in these matchups. I guess I don't have much of a choice there. But seriously, this is the reason you're running Leyline!?Dead in what matchups, exactly? Leyline at least has -some- use against the following:
1. Any deck with a Tarmogoyf.
2. Any deck with Life From The Loam.
3. Survival, or any other deck with Squee, Genesis and Witness.
4. Cephalid Breakfast, Ichorid, or any combo deck that uses Ill-Gotten Gains.
5. Any deck with a Threshold card, be it Mongoose or Monestary.
6. Any deck with any sort of recursion, such as Regrowth in Train Wreck.
7. Any deck with Crucible of Worlds, such as Landstill or Stax.
8. Decks with Rotting Giant or Jotun Grunt, like Deadguy Ale or Red Death.
9. Any deck that has a flashback card in it, including Cabal Therapy or Flash of Insight.
10. Reanimator. Okay, I'm reaching here.
1. Tarmogoyf gets cut off from half of what makes him big. Leyline is a poor choice. Removal would be better. Planar Void would be better.
2-4. The good reasons you're considering this.
5. Your running Leyline maindeck to make roughly 4 cards in your opponents deck less effective. What?
6. Again, Leyline for this reason makes me sad. Unless said Deck is Aluren (you didn't include this one in your list :P).
7. Are we really worried about Crucible of Worlds in your build? Well, Wasteland isn't an issue. I suppose the recurring Mishra's they finally managed to put up on turn 4 are... scary? I suppose that's sarcasm, I'll try to keep it a little more objective.
8. Jotun Grunt becomes half as effective because he still gets to play with your graveyard, just not theirs. Rotting Giant is rendered useless, there go 3 of Red Death's cards for 4 of yours. Again why is Leyline maindecked for this?
9. What can I say?
10. You really are reaching.
Forgive my discription of calling Leyline a dead card. It was an ill-attempt at matching humor with my point. I admittedly used the term too loosely. I should have labeled it, what's the word... ineffective... against most decks. You proved your point.
Leyline is the epitome of a sideboard card. In game 1 you'll see it in your opening hand slightly less than half of the time. To hardcast it is too slow to be truly effective. And accepting a very few number of decks where it is excellent at stopping a combo, Leyline is otherwise a poor answer, even to most of the cards you noted. Planar Void would probably have been better for your argument, atleast it does take care of Tarmogoyf and Jotun Grunt. Not that I'd recommend maindecking that either.
Mind if I add to the list?Leyline is currently -dead- against the following decks:
1. Goblins
2. Countersliver
3. UWb Fish (thought I'd cover the other DTB you missed)
4. Red Aggro be it burn, RG beats, etc.
5. Affinity
6. Enchantress
7. Belcher
8. Several others - The point is you missed alot. And you were reaching so hard in the other direction.
Those somethings which are graveyard related in almost every(?) deck doesn't warrant maindeck inclusion of Leyline. The decks which Leyline is a bomb against, compose too little of the meta to warrant maindeck Leyline. I guess that's my position in brevity.While Leyline isn't a bomb against some decks, almost every deck in existence has something graveyard related in it, because they think they can get away with it as long as there's not enough of it to warrant boarding in graveyard hate. Even the ever yard-hate resilient Aluren runs a Witness and sometimes a Deep Analysis, and even Goblins has talked about tossing in Wort, Boggart Auntie and Cabal Therapy, both of which would be hurt by Leyline.
People run Swords to Plowshares because it's useful against over 3/4 of the deck in the format. Leyline's useful against just slightly less.
The comparison between Swords to Plowshares and Leyline of the Void is simply unjust. Name a deck that doesn't run creatures in Legacy? Solidarity? Truthfully StP isn't very good against fast-combo, but Sword to Plowshares flat stops creatures, which make up far, far, far more cards than those which use the graveyard in Legacy. Even those cards which do use the Graveyard are often not stopped by Leyline, instead they're just hampered a bit (Tarmogoyf, Jotun Grunt, recurring manlands, etc.). Unless it's graveyard combo, Leyline tends to effect maybe 4-8 cards in a deck. Swords to Plowshares kills creatures; how many decks are composed of how many creatures? To state that Leyline is useful against slightly less might as well be mockery.
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Oh...
Glad to see you gave this some testing?In any case, Lake of the Dead has no place in Legacy.
Just jet you know, Confinement + Squee from enchantress is GG.
Replenish after couple discard spell also is. I hope you realize that Mono B Sui runs no answers to resolved enchantments. Enjoy your Replenish into Moat lolness.
The point is that the graveyard is becoming more and more important, it is not very strange to run an maindeck answer for it. It is bit chunky, but I would not dismiss it. It certainly very powerful in certain environment.
It is Scary, assuming that they answered all your threats by StP, WoG, Humility, EE, Deed, and others. This deck runs absolutely no form of card advantage, and recurring blocker is not something I'd scoff at.7. Are we really worried about Crucible of Worlds in your build? Well, Wasteland isn't an issue. I suppose the recurring Mishra's they finally managed to put up on turn 4 are... scary? I suppose that's sarcasm, I'll try to keep it a little more objective.
BTW, 43 Lands is almost unwinnable, if they manage to drop Manabond and go nuts. Even if they don't, it is still a hard matchup.
@Goaswerfraiejen
If I was in lategame, what I want to do is scrolling them to death or something to that extent. Also, since your deck runs no other nonbasics, it seems kinda evident that they would have idle Wasteland on the board by then.
She said, "You're broken."
"So is your face." replied the Tarmogoyf.
Leyline is actually the KILL card against affinity! It nullifies Modular, Disciple of the Vault, Chromatic Sphere, and Tarmogoyf.
And does it also stop a 9/2 flying Ornithopter?
no but snuff out/smother/swords to plowshares does. I played against affinity in the U sea at hadley and my removal took care of most of his annoying things. Also for that matter why are we even discussing about how leyline effects the affinity matchup. Leyline should not be maindecked... period. Out of all the reasons you gave to run maindeck leylines taco about 2 and 1/2 of them were actually legitimate. Against decks packing tarmogoyf it cans till get big off of your yard. Oh and decks that use loam (43 lands is essentially what im aiming for) they can easily play and win without it. The lands matchup is so hopelessly one sided that if i ever actually won a macth in tournament play i would eat all my scrublands (you can hold me to this). Survival is also a difficult matchup and robbing them of their squee isnt a game winning plan. Luckily this deck is very unpopular and usually doesnt matter after round three because it has been beat out by combo or thresh. Ill give you number 4 because those are the matchups that its actually game winning. 5 and six are stretches especially six. Crucible of the world is helpful to stax but they can also play around it or smoke it off the board. The rest of your reasons are so miniscule that they actually help your opponent because you would be better off playing a piece of disruption or beater.
To make a long argument short, leyline doesnt belong in the maindeck and in the sideboard it gets outclassed by planar void because planar void hits goyf harder.
Call me Ishmael
The only way to win the 43 land matchup is with Blood Moon. I think I'll splash red just for them.
Is it really that bad? I haven't played it. I kinda figured that 4x Duress and 4x Thoughtseize would be fairly good at taking out Exploration and Mulch. Then I also run 4x Sinkhole and 4x Wasteland. Still not good enough to slow 43lands down while you beat? I was betting that if an aggro/aggro-control deck had a chance it would be sui-black.
Yeah, I find I have similar reasons for Sui Black. Its once again my favorite deck, and I kind of see it in a new light.
Either Wretch or Jailer or the only GY hate you would MB. However, for the SB depending how things go maybe the 4 leyline and 4 Serums powder should be in effect.
Well, all they need to do is drop one land accelerant, of which they're running an effective 11-12 copies with Gamble, and all of a sudden, resource denial becomes a big fat lie.
You simply can't beat enough before their CA engines crush you. Maze of Ith is a huge problem, Nantuko monastery doubly so.
The best opening is going to be something insane like 2xRitual, Hymn, Negator and pray.
My assertions were not half as incorrect as your failed attempts at correcting them.
3. UWB Fish runs Jotun Grunt. (You're 0 for 1.)
4A. RG Beats runs Tarmogoyf. (You're 0 for 2.)
4B. "Red Aggro" in Legacy constitutes as Goblins, which I listed. (You're 0 for 3.)
4C. Burn is a valid point if not a highly viable deck. Fortunately Umezawa's Jitte wins this matchup. (You're 1 for 4.)
5. Leyline stops Disciple of the Vault. (You're 1 for 5.)
6. Leyline stops Replenish and Holistic Wisdom. (You're 1 for 6.)
7. Okay, fine. I missed -one- actually viable deck. Leyline blows against Belcher. Board it and some Jump Knights out for Plague and Needle. (You're 2 for 6.)
8. "Several Others" did not show up as a Deck Name in any thread. I tested this with the search function. (You're 2 for 7.)
Therefore the underlying point of my assertion is completely correct. There is something in almost every matchup that Leyline will do for you.
As to whether it warrants the Leyline maindeck, no, none of the reasons listed above warrant it on their own. But the fact that it swings several matchups from heavily unfavorable to slightly-to-moderately favored (This includes Threshold, Cephalid Breakfast, Ichorid, and Survival), in addition to the point that it does -something- against almost everything, makes it good enough for me and certainly debatable for inclusion. It's certainly better than garbage like Sinkhole, and the only thing I'd consider moving it to board for would be more pro-white guys or maindeck Scrolls/Needles.
As far as Lake of the Dead goes, I have no need to test this any more than I have a need to test Drudge Skeletons. I have a fairly fundamental grasp of the basics of deckbuilding enough to know when a card is bad, and most people with similar grasp would be fully aware that Lake of the Dead has no place in this deck.
Alternately, this is where I find a 4-set of Pithing Needles in sideboard to be a godsend. Leyline can help keep them off Loam and Needle will keep them off Maze and whatever else the big threat at the time is (Megaliths if they run it, if not a Manland or Cycle Land if they get Loam going.)
Having Cursed Scroll can be beneficial too, as it can randomly allow you to simply throw damage at their face for the win assuming they don't run Zuran Orb.
The matchup still isn't good, though. It won't be without Wasteland (If even that's enough to stop it), and I personally struggle mentally to run Wasteland in the same deck as Hymn, Shade, and all the otherguys. Tsabo's Web might be a bomb here too.
Hahahaha....
The fact is that Leyline is completely amazing against most decks in this format. The graveyard has become one of the most useful tools in growing your creatures, combo-ing off, and disrupting the opponent. Just as Taco said, Swords to Plowshares is useful against about 3/4 of the field and nobody complains about including those in a deck. In fact, it's considered an "auto-include". Leyline has become about as useful. The Stark Suicide Black deck was practically made to run Leyline, and therefore it should be run. Yeah, it sucks in multiples, but it's such a huge bomb in crippling decks in the early game so you can get a step up on them. Leylines become less valuable in Anwar's version of Suicide, but they're still a good sideboard card. All in all, run them regardless because they almost always come in handy.
In response to several replies regarding fetch lands:
I prefer to thin out the deck. The only time I have ever regretted running them is when I run into a Burn deck. Otherwise, I do not want to draw more than 5 lands. If I draw 2 fetches and 3 swamps out of 15 draws (these are the statistical expectations), then out of the remaining 45 cards only 13 of them are land. 6 fetch and 7 swamps. This makes it a little over 4% less likely that I will draw a land with my next draw at the cost of only 2 life. Now each time I draw a card, it will become less likely that i will draw a land and more likely that i will draw a fetch land instead of a swamp. This is the point where the fetch damage begins to take a toll. Thinning the deck makes Dark Confidant hurt more - a lot more. But its not like you can't burn him with a jitte or negator. You just have to be careful. However, by the time you play fetch # 3 the deck has become more of an engine - pumping cheap cards into your hand that hit the board as soon as you get them.
Now about tarmogoyf: You are just as likely to draw a Smother as your opponent is to draw a goyf AND with 12 cards that cause your opponent to discard cards, it is likely that goyf does not reach the board.
Now about stifle: Let them do it... i think that is a waste of stifle. stop them from fetching a land... please...
Now about not running wasteland: Dunno... just personal preference. they don't pump shades
I've tried a build that ran 4 wasteland and 17 swamp but i would always draw more land than i wanted and my opponents would fetch basics. Both land selections are good - i just prefer to run the fetches. Hell, a couple of weeks ago i was playing D+T and had 3 wastelands and 3 R.Ports on the board against UGr Thresh. HE DREW NO DUALS - ONLY BASICS AND FETCH!!!! WTF!!! Glowrider and ports slowed him down but he eventually killed me with a fledgling dragon. whatev...
When you run low land count like 18, you cant just say, 'sure, that's good for me', wait untill you are stuck on 1 lands for the longest time and lose.
Also, the deck does not run much effects to be stifked, so it is very resonable to Stifle a fetch. What, are you going to stifle a shade activation?
She said, "You're broken."
"So is your face." replied the Tarmogoyf.
hopefully the opponent will side them out - thats what i would do if i were them. besides, i run 20 lands and 4 dark rits. odds are that i would still have 2 lands in play after 2nd draw and i might even get to drop a negator via dark rit. Getting mana screwed is just part of playing magic - stifle is not intimidating.
Sinkhole is not garbage. You can say the metagame if moving away from a need for LD, but to call it garbage is too far. Even with metagame in mind, attacks on the mana base are still a pretty viable strategy.
Ok i am refusing to post in this thread from here on till i place with the deck... im realy just tired of arguing with people then have a new person join the conversation bringing up the same damn points. I might come back occasionally and check up on things but i will not discuss topics that have already been covered 3 or 4 times previously. If you want to know about correct side board hate or the correct piece of removal then just look it up. If i have to explain why snuff out and smother are both better then diabolic edict(or conaigon for that matter) again then... well i dont realy know. The discussion on Suicide black is not getting anywhere because new people just bring up everything over again. Its fine to post your decklist and if people suggest to run better versions of removal and hate then that is fine. What should be being discussed in this thread are things like sideboarding in matchups, tournament results (for all the people that post in this thread it seems like i am the only one who actually tops 8), metagaming, etc... I dont want to sound like an ass, but seriously, this deck wont get anywhere unless we can all agree on the basics.
First off, sinkhole... garbage, my ass. Sinkhole is great against thresh no matter what they tell you. They only run 18 lands and if they choose to counter it, then you just play another must answer spell. Sinkhole is also great against breakfast for the same reason. It acts as a legacy time walk or better and randomly screws people off of colors. Combined with waste it is realy devastating.
Also, maindeck leyline... where did that come from. Thresh, breakfast, and ichorid (im not even gonna count survival because the archetype is virtually unplayed) do not make up more then 20% of the meta. Maybe in larger tournaments the percentage will be higher but it still is irrelevant. If you play leyline maindeck just ask yourself after the game is over if the card would have been better off just being a creature or beater. Thresh can still play around this because they side in krosan grips against us and tarmo will still get big from our yard.
Call me Ishmael
If Sinkhole and Wasteland are both part of the plan for a Sui Black deck then Paralyze becomes a very effective 1cc answer to the opponents cheap fatties, like Goyf, Grunt and Negator. It's very hard to achieve and maintain 4 mana early to midgame when the opponent has 8 landkill in the deck. Later on if you haven't won yet the opponent has to tap out to untap his endgame killer.
There's a lot of old tech that's weak in its separate components but fairly strong when it's used synergistically. The old combo was Sinkhole/Stripmine/Paralyze, which of course was a bit stronger.
I like to sideboard a bit of smallpox. I'm in complete agreement with Techno et al. that Sinkhole is not garbage. Land destruction has been quite effective for me against Threshold, alot of control matchups, and basically everything that runs 3 colors.
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