Perhaps if we add Standstill it could be called Fish, but as it is now, this deck would suck with Standstill. The threats do not come down early enough often enough. Fish is definitely a particular kind of deck (well, a bunch of similar ones), and this one is tribal in theme, so while Fish began as a deck with some merfolk, the name now applies to something else. Or, whatever.Originally Posted by Taco
Rootwater Thief is an interesting idea. I don't think it is a maindeck card since it IS mana intensive, and the evasion isn't quite as important with Islandwalk available. Certainly it is a better sb card than Blue Elemental Blast, but I have to stress that the combo matchup seems very strong already for this deck. And that is the natural purpose for the Thief.
This does not surprise me. I could go on and on how stupid good Reejerey is.
example: Just by random chance, I played Bane of the Living last night on MWS. On turn four or something, beginning the turn with no creatures in play and three lands, I vialed out Reejerey, played a Tidal Warrior, untapped the Vial, vialed out another Reejerey, played Lord of Atlantis from hand, untapped an Island and the Vial. At this point, there are four unblockable 4/4's in play, and I still had an untapped vial for my Seasinger in hand.
I think 2 Stifles for 2 Jittes is the way to go, and I am about to modify the opening post to reflect this. But then you are leaning heavily on the Seasingers unless you side in Pongify or Boomerang or something.
The deck has Silvergill Adept for card advantage to help with FoW. But it doesn't matter anyway. You can't seriously think FoW does not belong in the deck.
Propaganda seems worth investigating for the SB.
Then standstill to support FoW ?
I've just played against a rebel deck playing landstill and I won through landstill. Too good.
I think Merfolk.dec just might be the new goblins judging from the list. Do you guys agree?
I for one don't.
This deck is incredibly solid but lacks goblins ability to deal with random crap nearly as well. Solid old school aggro decks will consistently beat up on this one if it can't get some of its muscle merfolk out quick enough.
The only real weakness I see is the lack of creature removal. Finn, has this ever been an issue for you?
Has splashing white for StP ever cross your mind?
Seasinger is like creature removal.
I ran that in a transformational SB back when flash was legal and it seriously won the game against thresh/fish when it hit the board. My only wish would be that you had a sac outlet for it so you could clear their board, but that would be a little too situational.
Overall I like the concept a lot, and I might have to try this list or a similar one out.
Red Wizard needs food badly!
Have you tried dropping the entire LD scheme and just playing a pseudo Counter Sliver deck with Standstill, Counterspell and Umezawa's Jitte backing the deck up? Since you're playing an army of Island Walking creatures that can keep the opponent's threats locked down, I think you could just focus on slipping threats thru' with Curiosity and under Standstill to crush aggro-control and control any way. You also get the added benefit of playing more 1 and 2cc Merfolk that can establish a clock and reduce the land count.
Regardless, it's a really refreshing deck.
Edit: After a search, I was reminded how much Merfolk suck. The next best Merfolk I could find cc to power/toughness wise was River Merfolk and Sygg, River Guide (since he's more or less your "Crystalline Sliver," I think he's worth splashing for if you get Swords to Plowshares out of the deal).
Why? Because it's another Tribal deck? Or because it has incredible threat density and can win turn 3?
I have to say that from all new tribal decks, this one interested me the most. It has md answers to stop combo and a really nice pack of aggro that can overrun others Aggro, Aggro/Control decks.
But isn't 4 daze and 4 stifle too much, Finn? Perhaps you could cut one of each, maybe some other 2 slots and add Ponder, or even MD Rootwater Thief. What do you think?
“THROUGH me you pass into the city of woe, through me you pass into eternal pain, Through me among the people lost for aye.
Justice the founder of my fabric moved, to rear me was the task of Power divine, Supremest Wisdom, and primeval Love.
Before me things create were none, save things Eternal, and eternal I endure.
All hope abandon, ye who enter here.” - Inferno
A new Goblins this isn't. There's a huge difference between 4 1-drops that allow us to cheat on mana and 8, especially since Lackey was the more gamebreaking one. This also affects how early we can use our mana denial lands as such. This isn't as good at winning out of nowhere... in many respects it's a very poor man's goblin.
Having said that, the countermagic we can run is a big plus.
After testing, the deck behaves very well. As everyone tries to compare it to Goblins, I can make the comparison :
++++
* does not die to pyroclasm as easily as gob
* great evasion
* better mana disruption
* a very good answer to tarmogoyf in the name of seasinger
* a better combo matchup
* counterspells
* monocolor
* lower curve
----
* no tutor
* less tribal
* best pool of creature
* best goldfish performance
* only 4 ways to cheat with mana
There's no point in comparing Merfolk to Goblins, what people should be doing is comparing Merfolk to Slivers, because I can't see a reason I would run Slivers over Merfolk after testing similar shells for each deck. Playing 8 "Muscle Slivers" that give your deck evasion and tempo to boot and playing 4 Sygg, River Guide that turn your entire army into "Blazing Knights" is pretty hot. I think you can cut the Rishadan Ports and still play an effective LD plan, so that should cut down on the annoying Goblins references.
Yea this deck is not goblins by a long shot.
It's creatures are significantly weaker when compared 1 vs 1, it has no Lackey, no Fanatic, no Siege Gang. That said I think it's an ok deck- it seems pretty comparable to Slivers or to a lesser degree the Crystalline Elves builds being discussed... in terms of having a good 1 drop that complements the theme, in this case Reef Shaman or Tidal Warrior, 2 sets of muscles at its disposal, a few solid creatures with good effects (like Winged and Hibernation in Slivers or Wren's Run Vanqisher and Herald in Elves)...
From limited playing around with it, the right call definitely seems heavy mana disruption- 4 Wastelands, 8-12 Ports (Reef Shaman!! and to a lesser degree given Thresh- Tidal Warrior), 4 Stifles, 3-4 Dazes... I think Force of Will is too much card disadvantage to warrant main deck room, maybe worth it vs combo, maybe something like Disrupt would make more sense.
Maveric78f's list a few posts up looks spot on for what I would be playing around with.
How can people question FoW here? As if the card weren't good enough on it's own virtues, this deck puts a ton of permanents on the board and sweepers like Wrath and Deed will wreck it.
Jitte might not belong here, but I really think it does after some extremely light testing. The decks creatures are tiny, and never really grow to Goyfs size. What they do have going for them is evasion in the form of islandwalk (and Jitte doesn't really NEED evasion) and Vial tends to keep our mana open for easy casting and equipping. Lastly, it's one more Needle target that isn't Vial, Port, or Seasinger.
Also, I love Standstill but am extremely skeptical about it here, at least in current builds. Without a Vial, it seems like getting board advantage would take a damn long time, and be uncertain without manlands a plenty. I guess the deck could be tweaked to fit in that strategy, but right now the mana denial madness seems more promising to me.
I've never seen him so upset....or ever before.
I can't believe you tested the deck to post that. One of the best point of the deck is that, your opponent should never be able to play 4CC cards, and even less wth 2 colored mana. However about the use of FoW, I'm still wondering. as standstill definitely belongs to the deck *4, I now think that we can afford it, but there's a lack of room now
I'm quite sure that jitte is poor in the deck except in order to remove your opponent's one. Tarmogoyf is not a problem in its own, you will swarm it quite easily and if not seasinger may do the job.Jitte might not belong here, but I really think it does after some extremely light testing. The decks creatures are tiny, and never really grow to Goyfs size. What they do have going for them is evasion in the form of islandwalk (and Jitte doesn't really NEED evasion) and Vial tends to keep our mana open for easy casting and equipping. Lastly, it's one more Needle target that isn't Vial, Port, or Seasinger.
Our creatures are cheap and your opponent is not supposed to know that you don't run manlands (if you want to be sure run 1*mishra and you'll maybe feel more comfortable in playing standstill with an empty board). Sometimes I regret not playing tidal warrior over reef shaman (my list evoluated) just to have a beater and be able to play standstill, but that's not often. I prefer a 0/2 body that a 1/1 usually.Also, I love Standstill but am extremely skeptical about it here, at least in current builds. Without a Vial, it seems like getting board advantage would take a damn long time, and be uncertain without manlands a plenty. I guess the deck could be tweaked to fit in that strategy, but right now the mana denial madness seems more promising to me.
I post my new and tested list.
Critters
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Reef Shaman
3 Seasinger
Other blue stuff
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
Artifacts
4 Aether Vial
Land
4 Rishidan Port
4 Wasteland
7 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
SB
4 Force of Will
4 Propaganda
3 Thorns of Amethyst
1 Seasinger
3 Powder keg / echoing truth
I'am not completely convinced with thorns/powder keg and echoing truth. Stifle has not been that hot neither. Keeping 1 blue mana open is problematic in early games and stifle in late games are far more situationnal (for deed and explosives mainly). Daze or thorns of amethyst are not really combo with reef shaman neither. Btw, I wonder if explosives would not be better than keg because reef shaman can help to make it @2 or more.
I'm not convinced with Merrow Reejerey neither because the tapping or untapping does not work through vial (I mean that it does not trigger when you vial in a merfolk). It's an expensive and limited lord of atlantis to my eyes. The +1/+1 is golden though, I admit to play around engineered plague and pyroclasm.
Seasinger is great but I rarely face creature decks these last days on MWS so it was quite often useless. As being our only creature removal and as being sensible to creature removal, I really think that playing it *3 MD +1 SB is the least.
The week slots of my build (I don't plan to cut any of these but to reduce their count to 3 or 2) :
Merrow Reejerey
Brainstorm
Stifle
Daze
The cards I'm thinking about in the MD or SB :
Tidal Warrior ***
FoW *****
Aquitect's Will ***
Merfolk Traders *
Seahunter ***
Streambed Aquitects ***
Tidal Courier ***
Vodalian Illusionist ****
Whirlpool Rider / Whirlpool Warrior **
I too think Force shouldn't be cut. Not for the sweepers - Mana Denial and Stifle should work perfectly fine there.
In a format sporting combo decks that go off turn 1 and decks that have a decent chance to kill turn 2 with backup, I'll run Force if I can at all support it.
I think you're slightly overdoing it with the mana denial. I would definitely run less lands; unlike Goblins we don't ever have to worry about hardcasting 4- and 5-drops, we can find extra mana with a brainstorm and we don't refill our hand to use excess mana for second win in the lategame. I'm also averse to a full set of Stifle/Daze as multiple of those can suck royally.
What do you think about submerge in SB or even in MD ? It's a very good creature removal, as you can play it in resp to a fetch.
About the splashes, 1 only is possible imo: white. It would provide, ghostly prison in addition to propaganda in SB, maybe Sygg, but it's a very expensive ability, Galina's Knight, surely disenchant.
Surgespanner and Waterfront Bouncer have to be added to the above "need testing" list.
I did test against Landstill, and there are times when you can deny them 4 mana, but if you think that is 100%, you're fooling yourself. We run 12 denial pieces (and Stifle is pulling double duty here) and half their deck is freaking land (and Loam/Crucible is no picnic). They WILL hit Deed, and they WILL hit Wrath (not every game, but they will). Goblins had a great plan of denying them mana and winning before they could sweep, but this deck really doesn't win that fast, especially through all their spot removal, so Force is a nice backup.
Frankly, I'm not even sure it matters. If the card read "can't target Wrath or Deed" it would still be worth running.
Right now I'm Pondering squeezing Ponder in as well as Brainstorm. The reason is that Vial is just so damn good I figure that will give me a solid chance at dropping one by turn two.
I've never seen him so upset....or ever before.
Phantom, I have done this. I am very pleased with it. Current build:
4 Aether Vial
2 Reef Shaman
2 Tidal Warrior
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Merrow Reejerey
2 Seasinger
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
4 Wasteland
3 Rishidan Port
Ehh, thirteen blue sources is a little light with Lord of Atlantis around, but between Ponder and Brainstorm it has not been a problem yet.
I am really enjoying:
turn 1
Island, Vial, Daze
turn 2
Island, Stifle the fetchland
I've built and trested Merfolk ever since I saw the lorwyn spoiler for Silvergil adept. I definatly believe Vial is an auto-in, but I'd also like to point out that goblins can up vial as they still have other ways of playing guys from their hand with lackey. Goblins has card advantage is matron and ringleader, and merfolk have no such (playable) creatures. My opinion is that vial should remain at two, with only the best merfolk two drops run in the main. I chose to splash for Dark confidant (also 2cc) for card advantage and vodalian zombie. (wrecks UG thresh, and UGR if counter-top is set up)
Having the ability to give an opponent an island doesn't seem too relevant, as against most non fish/thresh decks, you will either have an empty field (ala combo) or have to kill their bigger dudes rather than try to race with evasion.
Reerjoy seems wholly weaker than LoA, as his ability only triggers when you PLAY a merfolk spell, and vial works against him, as you want to vial in guys without having them countered. If it was a CIP effect, I would mod my deck to fit him for the simulated (ice) effect of fire/ice in tapping an opponent's attacker on his turn. Sorcery speed free twiddles don't seem like good enough reasons to play this guy, and have the cc of your guys over 2.
Jitte allows for the deck to beat goblins pre-boards, as well as providing virtual card-advantage. E-Plague helps even more after boards, with dystopia helping with the thresh/meathooks matchup. I would say the black splash is superior to the white as it offers a better matchup vs combo, goblins, and thresh.
I also believe that the counter-top combo is superior to any other disruption sweet, as CB for two wrecks most decks in the meta, and this decks sports 26 cards at 2cc, so hitting with balance is ~50% even w/o top. Bob abuses top, and brainstorm benefits both. With the possibility of outright winning games, I would say Top+balance > stifle+daze in most cases.
All said, here's my list.
//Creatures//
4 x Dark Confidant
4 x Silvergil Adept
4 x Lord of Atlantis
4 x Rootwater Thief
4 x Vodalian Zombie
//Disruption//
3 x Counterbalance
4 x Force of Will
//Card draw//
4 x Brainstorm
//Artifacts//
4 x AEther Vial
4 x Sensei's Divining Top
3 x Umezawa's Jitte
//Lands//
4x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand
4x Underground Sea
2x Swamp
2x Island
4x Wasteland
//SB//
4x Cashseize
4x Engineered Plague
4x Seasinger
3x Dystopia
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