Yes, it includes FoW itself, and even tho' 16 blue cards seems low in this format for FoW, if you've played Vintage, it's the standard for including FoW in combo decks. Whether or not you want to RFG Breakthrough is irrelevant, if you can trade 2 cards in exchange for your opponent's entire hand and not immediately losing the game, I'd RFG Ancestral Recall if I had to.Originally Posted by Bovinious
I'm not quite to the point of tossing my support behind Force of Will, but if it comes down to a choice of pitching Breakthrough or letting someone resolve Crypt/Planar Void/Something Else on turn one, I'd take pitching Breakthrough.
I think what will ultimately keep Force out, however, is Leyline of the Void. This prevents Force from actually solving the whole problem of never knowing exactly what to board in, as Force can't stop Leyline.
You missed the point, FoW isn't SBed in as an answer to the opponent's hate, FoW is SBed in as a bullet to the opponent's strategy (LED + FoW=Mind Twist). You certainly could SB in FoW to deal with the opponent's hate, but FoW is to Storm combo as Leyline is to Graveyard combo, you just want to SB the card in and take your free win. FoW may or may not be good against the opponent's hate and Leyline may or may not be good against Mogg Fanatic etc. but regardless it's an incidental consideration in this case.
Well his turn 3 kill happens. You had at least 2 turns to finish him off which means mulligans should be important to you here. Also, never sb out Zealot against combo. It makes your clock a turn faster. When your playing against a deck that has a win possibility turns 1-2 you should be concerned with racing them. I ususally only take out zealot in control matchs.
I play four Chalice of the Void in my current sb. It deals with TES quite well, especially when youre playing Gamble to make your virtual CotV count 6-7. Chalice also handles Extirpate which you should be more concerned with frankly. All current landstill decks pack it and most black aggro decks do as well. Leyline isnt the favored approach to combat this deck. Just since its the best doesnt mean people are willing to make accomidations for it.
The "TES" deck you played against second doesnt sound like your run of the mill build. Most versions utilize the sb space for wish targets, Shattering Sprees, and REBs.
You have way too much Leyline hate in your board. Get your fourth Leyline in there and consider CotV. Good luck.
Regarding Force of Will.
Instead of arguing against Breathweapon I recommend you just listen to the people that are seasoned with the deck. Force of Will is awfull against Tormods Crypt since you can often just play through it or go for 1 for 1 trades against it. (Ancient Grudge, Chain of Vapor) Even better Pithing Needle goes 1 for 4 against crypt.
Force does nothing at all against Extirpate and becomes useless if a TES player simply Chants you first. Is this 'element of surprise' really worth the wasted sb slots and possibility of not having the blue card? NO.
Force does nothing against Leyline.
Chalice of the Void is amazing against Extirpate, amazing against Tormods Crypt, and amazing against any deck you play against that has 15+ 1cc cards in it.
The fact that CotV is free makes it actually synergistic with your deck..
Do I need to go on?
Here is my current sb for reference.
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Ray of Revelation
3 Pithing Needle
Now playing real formats.
I have no clue what you just said.
Sexy
He is saying that you don't SB FoW to fight their hate, you board it in to fight their combo. Just like they are boarding LotV to fight your combo.
Game2 they are going to combo out as soon as possible, and if you can pull off countering the right stuff, they are pretty stuck, while you either win, or find a Chain for the Lleyline and then win. Whether or not you bring in FoW, a resolved Lleyline is a beast to win through, especially when they can combo whenever because you're unable to apply any pressure. If you can stop their combo, however, LotV becomes easier to deal with, as you aren't pressed as hard for time.
If Storm combo SBs in Leyline of the Void, I think your just legitimately fucked. There's no way you can answer their Leyline of the Void and then stop them from going off in the mean time. Even if you do catch them off guard with FoW, they'll probably be able to rebuild before you can. That said, I don't know any one who SBs Leyline of the Void in TES or Belcher other than me, so consider yourselves lucky that this is never going to happen to you any way.
@BOTL, you may actually want to play with Force of Will against Storm combo before you claim it's worthless. It's the only card that will stop them from forcing you to scoop before you get to draw a card, and if they have to cast Xantid Swarm or Orim's Chant before they go off, it's either a virtual Time Walk or a Daze regardless of whether or not its in your hand, and if you do counter either card they can't necessarily risk the IGG chain. You can go for the ad hominem attack all you want, but I'm pretty sure people can see Force of Will for what it is and decide for themselves whether or not its worth it in a Storm combo meta (wherever that may be) or against Storm combo on the final tables. Even if you are playing with Chalice of the Void, if you lose the coin flip, you may have already lost the match. Of course Force of Will isn't as good as other answers against hate cards, but other answers aren't as good against combo or protect you from hate resolving in the first place. Scoff at it all you want, but Force of Will offers the deck a measure of protection that no other card can offer in its place, which makes it a card that people need to measure on its own merits.
My board's plan against both Crypt and TES has been CotV. You need it very quickly against Tormods C, but it will work often. It is also mostly free, as you rarely put it at anything other than 0 against TC, but against storm you can do whatever, probably something like 0-1, even though 1 takes out your therapies. Probably 0 still.
I'm pretty sure Bane's right on this one, and Force really has no place in the sideboard. It's already pretty tight.
Chalice comes in against both Storm combo and decks siding in Crypt when you're on the play (usually game 3, if anything). Pithing Needle handles Crypt better than Chalice when you're on the draw. Leyline comes in against most aggro and heavily graveyard-based decks. Chain of Vapor comes in if you suspect an enemy Leyline game 2 (decks running black), or in game 3 if you saw a Leyline game 2.
The rest of the slots (usually 1-2) I run Ancient Grudge or Ray of Revelation.
Something like:
4 Leyline
4 Chalice
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Needle
2 Ancient Grudge
Chalice-1 doesn't take out your Therapies for the purpose of making zombie tokens really quickly, however. Seriously, though? Who the hell is playing Chalice for 1 in this deck? In what situation would you possibly want to do this?
Ray of Revelation keeps getting underrated, too. It hits Leyline from the hand, it can hit anything else from the yard, including Plague, Elephant Grass, Ghostly Prison, and even including Planar Void off one land and a discard effect or no land and a Diamond.
I have never played Ichorid in tournament. Could someone explain the side boarding strategy against the major decks? It seems very difficult to figure out what to cut.
edit: Although I can't really understand what Breathweapon is trying to say, he may be on to something with FOW out of the board. Its free, can answer atlealt one piece of hate, or stop combo from going off.
Team Unicorn is too hetero for me.While this is close it's still wrong. Every one knows it's an orgy of unicorns.******s?
TeaM NOVA for life.
Against decks that arnt fast combo you SB out the Dread Returns, Flame-kin Zealot and Cephalid Sage, then usually some number of Golgari Thugs/Putrid Imps/Deep Analysis/Ichorid, depending on the matchup. Its usually just basically SB out the DR combo when you dont need to win super fast, and water down a little bit in other places.
Yeah, you cut the combo package against every deck that can't kill you before turn 4 (every Non-Combo.dec). Against black decks you have to side in the Chains and Rays, just because they may be siding in Leyline (which would totally fuck you otherwise). Against other decks you always side in the Chalice/Needles against Crypts.
I've been playtesting against Threshold, and I'm pretty satisfied with the MUs. I've learned how to fight through counters and even under pressure of Goyfs. You can go via Friggorid, dredging slowly, then, you therapy them to death, reanimate Teh Zealotz0rs if needed and go for the lethal blow. Yo can also reanimate a Big Bad Golgari Troll, but it wasn't necessary on the games I've played. Ichorids do the job very fine.
Since you rarely will combo them, you cut the combo part on the next games.
Anyway, I'm really really happy with this deck and how it can be extremly brutal.
“THROUGH me you pass into the city of woe, through me you pass into eternal pain, Through me among the people lost for aye.
Justice the founder of my fabric moved, to rear me was the task of Power divine, Supremest Wisdom, and primeval Love.
Before me things create were none, save things Eternal, and eternal I endure.
All hope abandon, ye who enter here.” - Inferno
The good Thresh matchup, and Landstill matchup as well, is one of the biggest reasons to play this deck. Against these decks you can pretty much go EOT discard mode and never have to resolve a spell, although flashing back Therapy is usually helpful. Goyf really isnt much of a threat unless you have no clock, because you just chump block it all day with zombies and it will never die removing your bridges.
Its worth noting that it is possible to drop Chalice for one so its still worth siding in against thresh over Pithing Needle game 2(on the draw). A single crypt wont kill you but multiples will and they have tons of draw.
Needle is bad in multiples and easier to counter. Chalice can be set at zero then one.
Oh and your matchup against Landstill isnt as good as you think if your not playing Chalice. Extirpate in multiples and along with Explosives/Engineered Plague/ ect can just tear you apart if you walk into the matchup unprepared.
You dont need FoW just because of TES. Thats retarded. Only Bryant wins with it anyways.
Now playing real formats.
So this deck made it to the Decks to Beat forum. Did it suddenly lose its flair? Ive noticed a hell of a lot more graveyard hate recently which has put the deck in the back seat for me. Its easy enough to fight through usually but its just a pain in the ass when your seeing Leyline of the Voids maindecked in your local meta.
The deck needs a way to answer Gaddock Teeg because he can really ruin your gameplan if your not prepared. Hell Im wondering if the best way to work around him is by sideboarding out all your dread returns and DA's.
Now playing real formats.
I don't think the deck has any "flair", so to speak. My guess is that there hasn't been a need to innovate with this deck all that much.
Still, it's not like this deck has really HAD to innovate or anything, but lots of Leylines will probably make any Ichorid player wonder.
Many decks that pack Teegs are usually slow to the point where this deck can wait to win and then just go on a one turn killing spree. Wouldn't Cabal Therapy, Chain of Vapor, and Gamble usually be enough - all you would have to do is make sure your Chain resolves and then let FKZ do the rest.
My thought (while it may not be right) is this: if you side out DRs, FKZ, and Sage against the Teeg-filled deck, then you have to win with 2/2s and 3/1s. Without Leylines, that's just a disaster (or a block) waiting to happen. Even with Leylines, you still have to win a race against a deck that probably has Tarmogoyf, graveyard removal, and/or Engineered Explosives.
For Teeg, wouldn't siding out the Deep Anals and like a Thug be better most times, or it this a deck that I'm missing?
WHAT? No, just no.
I'm not an expert, but I'm just wondering if Crippling Fatigue can be a valid answer to Gaddock Teeg if necessary. We can just dredge all our deck and then sending him to the graveyard. Anyway gambling for chain of vapor can still be a valid plan.
We tried to copy the Source, but then we realized we're spanish
If my post results dumb or offensive, it's probably just me miserably failing at being ironic in a foreign language
Surprised to here something like that from you, the Ichorid-Man himself!Since when does Gaddock Teeg ruins your gameplan?
The opponent has to cast him BEFORE you are doing that LED-Breakthrough-DA thingy. And if he casts a 1st Turn Gaddock Teeg -> EOT-Discard.
Gaddock Teeg is also just a cards for aggrocontrol-decks. And you normally beat those decks. So in my opinion, Gaddock Teeg is a card you don't need to worry about. I also thing Meddling Mage on Cabal Therapy hurts much more than Gaddock Teeg.
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
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