[OLD] UGr Threshold

[Shriekmaw]

Bad Player - Mongoose, go
Good Player - Fetchland, Ponder, go
Bad Player - Goyf, Daze, One you, go
Good Player - Top, go
Bad Player - Burning Tree, one you, go
Good Player - Goyf, go

I have a big problem with the above statement.

First, just because you lead off with a land and a mongoose doesn't mean that it the most terrible play. I believe this deck is an aggro-control archetype.

Second, your hand dictates your play most of the time. It is very rarely that your hand is really good that you have both situations available to you.


What happens if you play counterbalance and it gets countered. I think you lose, since your play is based on 1 card resolving. That is not very smart magic in my book.

In the mirror, going first turn mongoose is almost the correct play, unless you have top or thoughtseize in your opening hand.

[Michael Keller]

If you play a Nimble Mongoose turn one in the mirror, you are immediately putting your opponent on the defensive because they are well aware you can get seven cards in the yard relatively quickly and the more pressure you drop, the harder it is to combat.

[Adan]

Are we talking about the Red Threshold mirror right now? If so, then you assume both players have the exact same chance at drawing/player Goyfs on turn two (which incidentally, shut off all other creatures except Dragon and each other.) Here would be an example;

Bad Player - Mongoose, go
Good Player - Fetchland, Ponder, go
Bad Player - Goyf, Daze, One you, go
Good Player - Top, go
Bad Player - Burning Tree, one you, go
Good Player - Goyf, go

Now at this point in the game, if the good player drops a Counterbalance, there is no way for them to lose. Really. You would have a one turn window where you could kill off their Goyf, and then you would die, simply because they can ramp up creatures, and you will never resolve a spell the rest of the game (unless it's more Useless-Tree Shaman!). This is not an E-Peen I have to be right, this is me utterly confused why you would destroy your mirror MU for the sake of running Trash. (Also, against Survival, Landstill, ever deck that has Tendrils of Agony, Fish, and basicly decks that run good cards, Counterbalance will defend about half of what you're worried about).

Unless it's more Useless-tree Shaman? So they indeed do something. Another own goal, since CounterTop is a manaintensive softlock and it will ping you everytime you use it. More Burning Tree Shamans won't get countered by Balance and then we reach the point where it sucks to use the engine.

Against Landstill and Survival, I doubt that the Engine protects you well since they both run deed, Wrath of God, Harmonic Sliver, Loxodon Hierarchs, Eternal Witness and... things you will worry about.
The engine now really needs a very good timing against Survival.

And I really see no reason to play a worse maindeck (NQGr /w Balance) when there's already a build that's better at it's role (NQGw /w Balance). You just have Pyroclasms for the Goblin Matchup, but you are weaker in the mirror match against white Threshold.

I have an idea, why don't we play some rounds on MWS?

edit: A Legend got it right. Pressure-Argument! Pressure wins, not the engine since it doesn't make pressure onto the opponent. In this case it just clarifies that you are in a defensive position. What if the bad player in that scenario FoWs your Goyf? Right, then you lose.

[chokin]

Dragon is obviously better than any of the previous creatures I listed. My bad for not remembering. But the idea behind BTS was that he didn't rely on having Threshold. Being Crypted and having 1/1 untargetables and a significantly shrunk Goyf is no fun. a 3/4 no matter what is not bad. It helps against SDT, Survival, Wasteland, etc. In my meta, it's great. It is a beater regardless of them having a Tormod's Crypt or Jotun Grunt.

@GS - Playing a first turn goose is NOT a bad play if there's not much else to do. You're putting things into such a narrow situation. Early pressure and that BTS you mentioned basically shuts out the Top out from the CB/Top combo. BTS helps in other matchups...not as much the mirror, but it sure as hell becomes a must counter/kill card when the mirror uses Top. And BTS is a 3cc creature...I'm pretty sure that revealing a 3cc card is not going to be too easy in Thresh, making him something that can slide through CB. But then again, so can the Dragon. But then that brings up the issue of GY hate again. I wanted my deck to be able to win regardless of having 7+ cards in my graveyard because believe it or not, I play against Tormod's Crypt a lot.

Everyone has a different meta. Adjust accordingly.

[Goblin Snowman]

Adan - Will gladly do so run MWS against you. Set a time sometime and we'll see how it works out. 10 Preboard, 10 Postboard, both agree to mention which won the games?

No, playing a turn one Mongoose is a good play. I was showing that even with an agressive start, your gameplan is nullified by the other player playing a Goyf. or Dragon. And if they back that up with a Counterbalance, you will lose in spectacular fashion.

If you don't believe me, listen to Volt, Hatfields, Lego-Army Man, and the other regulars. They will all tell you you're idiots for not running these cards.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Ah, so you indeed need 3 turns where you can't do anyhing else but being affixed to get the engine together, right? It won't stop Burning Tree Shaman or Vedalken Shackles to resolve. The actual gamewinnign cards will still resolve through it. And Force of Wll is actually one of them.

I agree to the extent that the combo is potentially game-winning in the mirror, but you need both those cards, untapped lands, and some sort of threat on board to get it going early and sometimes un-targetable creatures work well against Swords (or Bolt, depending on which version you play).

What happens if you play counterbalance and it gets countered. I think you lose, since your play is based on 1 card resolving. That is not very smart magic in my book.

What you guys seem to be having trouble understanding is that we are still talking about a mirror match. Both players are playing similar decks, with similar threats and similar ways of finding and protecting those threats.

Sure, if one player resolves win conditions, and then counters all of his opponent's attempts to stabilize, he will win the game. That is true whether Counterbalance is involved or not. It's true in almost any game of Magic. So, yes, if you "make pressure" that your opponent is incapable of answering, you will win. This is a given, and hardly relevant to the evaluation of Counterbalance.

What we have, then, is a clash of extremely similar decks, wherein both players will attempt to establish a superior board position through the use of a similar set of tools. However, one of the players has access to Counterbalance, a two-mana card that shuts off ~50 cards in the opponent's deck.

Does anybody here want to venture a guess as to what UGr Thresh's win percentage against my CaNGD entry might be? I haven't tested it yet:

4x Force of Will
3x Burning Tree Shaman
3x Vedalkan Shackles

33x Blinkmoth Infusion

17x land

I'm pretty sure it'll be favorable, but I might make room for some Repeals if I need to.

So there's still no advantage of playing counterbalanced Red Thresh over counterbalanced White ***** since the white variant can do the control part better than Red Thresh. Playing Counterbalance means that you are control-oriented.

This is painfully irrelevant to the discussion. We're discussing Counterbalance in UGr Thresh, not UGw Thresh.

UGr Thresh really is better with Counterbalance in it. UGw Thresh might be a better deck, still, but that doesn't mean you should avoid running Counterbalance in UGr in the first place. It means you should just put the Volcanic Islands back in your binder.

Extremely stupid arguments, since the same is true for the Dragon and there's no advantage the Dragon has to offer over Burning tree Shaman which at least DOES something that is uncomfortable for those matchups. Ah, I just noticed that Dragon is also the worst cardchoice against Shriekmaw since Mystic Enforcer has still got Protection from Black, so he can't be targeted by Shriekmaw and Ghastly Demise in the mirror, but Dragon can. I suggest you think about the validity of your arguments before downplaying other things and get own goals afterwards.

I'm confused. Which cardchoice are you advocating? The one that is invulnerable to Shriekmaw and Ghastly Demise? What does that have to do with Mystic Enforcer?

I understand that Fledgling Dragon shares Burning-Tree's vulnerability to Terror-effects, but at least it gets the job done a hell of a lot quicker. I mean, BTS won't even get to attack against Survival decks, because it's a fucking 3/4.

[raharu]

Consider this list, drafted off the top of my head for the sake of arguement:

Creatures: 11
Nimble Mongoose x4
Tarmogoyf x4
Burning-Tree Shaman x3

Control: 12
Red Elemental Blast/ Hydroblast (what's difference?) x2
Daze x3
Counterspell x3
Force of Will x4

Removal: 8
Lightning Bolt x4 (this card still oozes with power)
Magma Jet x2
Valkden shackles x2

Cantrips: 12
Brainstorm x4
Ponder x4
whatever x4 (this really should be Serum Visions, but whatever)

Lands: 17
6 Fetch
8 duals
3 basics

Sideboard: 15
Pithing Needle x2
Engineered Explosives x3
Fledgling Dragon x2 (for REB's in the mirror???)
Crypts x2
Krosan Grip x3
BEB/ Hyrdoblast x3
(just BSing the sideboard here)

Note: I had no idea what should have gone in the REB/ Magma Jet slots off the top of my head, so you can pretty much ignore them.

Minimized Fetchlands, a good number of burn (prolly should have more) and some bombs that evade Counterbalance. This is a fairly solid deck, all without Counterbalance. White is thresh's control color, red is the agro color, and this reflected because the inclusion of Counterbalance really would weaken this deck. This build doesn't care about Counterbalance and will jack your Dragons/ Encorfers/ Tarmogoyfs if need be without breaking a sweat. In all verity, Counterbalance + Sensei's Divining Top is a bad idea here that takes up too many slots, eats a hell of a lot of mana, is disynergistic with BTS (which is a quite solid beater, although not like 'Goyf), and simply slows down the deck.

NQGr is a deck that likes to win relatively fast, using quick tempo, reach and fast creatures for a quicker clock than white thresh or other agro-control decks.

Burning-Tree Shaman goes a long way towards this role (as does Valkeden Shaclkes, which is why it's still here with BTS, even though they have negative synergy) by sneaking in damage out of nowhere. Dragons should be somewhere in the board for sure, but Burning-Tree Shaman stacks damage from places it shouldn't and isn't mana intensive (double red) so it therefore recieves my support (whatever weight that may bear).

[kicks_422]

Play Trygon Predator. That thing has gotten me out of impossible situations by itself, since the deck has a hard time taking out enchantments/artifacts that slip through your counterwall.

Also, just a question... With 4 BS, 4 Ponder, and 3 Tops MD, is a 3rd cantrip spell really needed? If so, what should it be: Portent, Serum Visions, or Predict?

[Goblin Snowman]

Play Trygon Predator. That thing has gotten me out of impossible situations by itself, since the deck has a hard time taking out enchantments/artifacts that slip through your counterwall.

Also, just a question... With 4 BS, 4 Ponder, and 3 Tops MD, is a 3rd cantrip spell really needed? If so, what should it be: Portent, Serum Visions, or Predict?

Predict. You have no other forms of card advantage in the deck outside of beating things down with Goyf.

raharu - you will get wrecked in both the WGU and RGU mirrors. If you're ok with that, keep running your list. Also, Magma Jet and REB are both terrible. What U spells do you need to counter? If you must run additional countermagic (while running 3x Daze!!), run Spell Snare. But you'd be ok with Force, Daze, and CS (or Counterbalance if you took the time to test it).

Oh, and MD Top. Sticking that card is so good, even with Useless-Tree in your deck. I understand you want to play aggro and drop all good cards from it, but really, the inclusion of CB/Top are not terribly mana intensive, and flatout win in the mirror. (Also - Who the hell decided that if you play Red, you have to be aggressive? I'm calling bullshit on that one. Blood Moon is such a control card in this deck)

[Kyachi]

I understand you want to play aggro and drop all good cards from it, but really, the inclusion of CB/Top are not terribly mana intensive, and flatout win in the mirror.

True. Even with Useless-Tree Shaman (Thank you Adan for that one), you're still countering a spell at the cost of one life, which no one complains about when we're talking about Force of Will. If I could play seven Forces, I probably would, but this works too.

[Adan]

Ok, then I will simply leave this thread since everyone is affixed to play with Counterbalance and Fledgling Dragon, just to have a worse maindeck than the 1:1 UGW Build with Enforcers and Swords (superior removal and equivalent 6/6 flying beatstick).

You are including the Engine because you think you can't keep up without it. But that's wrong. Ok, the engine can make it a lot more comfortable, but you all were going from the scenario to have it both in the opening hand together with some defense for the opposing Mongeese and Goyf (also a point where Lightning Bolt won't save you from Goyf, but StoPs can). I'd really like to play against Goblin Snowman, the suggestion to play 10:10 pre- and postboard seems very good to me, so we can also do a statistic how often this (a littlebit utopic) scenario happens.

@Goblin Snowman: Do you have MSN or AIM or ICQ? If so, I'll pm you my contact so we can playtest.

[Goblin Snowman]

@Goblin Snowman: Do you have MSN or AIM or ICQ? If so, I'll pm you my contact so we can playtest.

I'll see what I can do about stealing someone's for a bit. There's a long story about my computer and MWS hating it, but I'll be able to get access to it off someone else's sometime. I'll post more info later, ok?

Also, Obfuscate Freely summed it up best when he said you are still playing the same deck against each other, only one of you has access to a card that will win the game. UGW being better than UGR is immaterial to the discussion as long as UGR still does well and exists as a competitive deck. Also, as I've said again and again, Red has better boarding options in my mind against Control and Goblins. Pyroclasm is amazingly good at winning a few MUs that would otherwise be close, and a resolved Blood Moon will destroy and control deck.

[Adan]

I'll see what I can do about stealing someone's for a bit. There's a long story about my computer and MWS hating it, but I'll be able to get access to it off someone else's sometime. I'll post more info later, ok?

Also, Obfuscate Freely summed it up best when he said you are still playing the same deck against each other, only one of you has access to a card that will win the game. UGW being better than UGR is immaterial to the discussion as long as UGR still does well and exists as a competitive deck. Also, as I've said again and again, Red has better boarding options in my mind against Control and Goblins. Pyroclasm is amazingly good at winning a few MUs that would otherwise be close, and a resolved Blood Moon will destroy and control deck.

Blood Moon. Err... look! At the DtB section: Mono Blue Control. I don't see that Blood Moon can do something against it. I also don't see Blood Moon doing anything against Rifter since Rifter played Blood Moon itself in the SB. Against any kind of Lands.dec, Blood Moon may have a devastating effect, but Armageddon is - in my opinion - still the best controlhoser you can have since Armageddon is not a permanent that gets handled by bounce, Blueblasts, Disenchants and so on. Armageddon is a card a controldeck can only handle with counters and they have to recover. And to recover requires a few turns. Turns where your Goyfs and Enforcery will kick him while he's laying on the ground - whining. It's also a quite useful tech against Survival (depends on the boardposition). White offers a lot of superior cardchoices compared to Red. The only thing
Meddling Mage and Gaddock Teeg are also a very nice tool to defend yourself against Landstill's Explosives, Wraths, Pernicious Deeds (Mage)... And Geddon pretty much wrecks it more than Blood Moon. It also depends on the rogue effect. If Blood Moon is your supersecret ninja-tech, it will work against Landstill, but if he's aware, he will fetch basic Islands. Then, even under Blood Moon, he's able to cycle Eternal Dragon to fetch his Plains and then Cunning Wish for Disenchant/Dismantling Blow and then he's back.

What Red has really got is - and I fully agree with you - Pyroclasm. BUT Pyroclasm also doesn't do more than Tivadar's Crusade, since - as you said yourself - Ringleader and Goblin Matron are the real dangerous Goblins you have to handle as they generate cardadvantage and have done their job as they resolve. That's why Tao, kimberley and me were more fans of Blueblasts. And I'm testing Stifle due to Oddball's suggestion. I think a mix of pyroclasm and Blasts/Stifle can indeed annihilate Goblins. But so could Crusade and Stifle (Special Thanks to Anti American for the constellation, it works great).

Also be aware of the setup you need when playing Blood Moon. It means to fetch together your own basiclands and so on. I also don't like about Blood Moon that he shuts off all your shuffle effects (Ponder...Hm, semi) and then makes Brainstorm...suck? At least a littlebit?
Even though Blood Moon may also be a very interesting card in the mirrormatch, I don't really like it because it's really clunky.
Price of Progress is way too specific. A single card just to beat 43Land... That's paranoid. In the mirrormatch also interesting, but it doesn't evade Counterbalance (CC2, Blood Moon would be better. But he's useless if your opponent fetches Island, Forest), is situational (depends on who leads the damage race) and is just like... like... Yoshimitzu's Harakiri-Attack from Tekken, where he turns aroung and sticks his sword through him and hit the opponent too. No kidding, I always have that scene in my head when thinking about PoP in NQGr.

Against Goblins, Red has indeed the better Sideboard-Techs. Agreed. But something else? I don't really think so. And that's a point where you still can't convince me.

[raharu]

Yeah, REB would have been better in the side, but whatever, it was simply a list to illustrate the role red should take and the reason that Burning-Tree Badass deserves a slot in the deck. In all honesty I would have liked the list to look like this:

-2 REB
-2 Magma Jet
-1 Serum Visions

+1 Fledgling Dragon (just in case)
+4 super tech burn that no-one has thought of (that might not exist...)

About that savage tech burn... Thunderclap? Fireblast? Chain Lightning? Incinerate? Shock?

The reason that red is the agro-thresh color is because of the reach and the fact that is pretty well sucks (relative to the other colors) at playing control. The argument that it can play control is fairly irrelavant. The reason that one would play Daze/ Force of Will/ Counterspell in this deck instead of going RG stompy would be that it gives you quite solid control of the gamestate. In red thresh I would rather be playing threats that out-threat the opponent's threats than CounterTop'ing to retain board control, because anything relevant should catch a counter to the face and any creatures that slip through the wall O' counters and burn is going to be eaten by Tarmogoyf or Dragon (I give, the best idea is to run 1-2 Dragons and roughly 3 Burning-Tree Badasses, no question. I would rather run Dragon in the board though).

[Goblin Snowman]

Blood Moon. Err... look! At the DtB section: Mono Blue Control. I don't see that Blood Moon can do something against it.

I, truthfully, see maybe 1 Monoblue control deck at a decently sized tourny.

I also don't see Blood Moon doing anything against Rifter since Rifter played Blood Moon itself in the SB.

This is not, nor ever has been, a real MU. I love Elgin dearly, but no.

Against any kind of Lands.dec, Blood Moon may have a devastating effect, but Armageddon is - in my opinion - still the best controlhoser you can have since Armageddon is not a permanent that gets handled by bounce, Blueblasts, Disenchants and so on.

Crazy as it might sound, Geddoning against a deck that has at least 26 lands and Lftl isn't techy. They will draw out of it. Blood Moon will usually stop them from doing anything if backed up by a single counter.

Armageddon is a card a controldeck can only handle with counters and they have to recover. And to recover requires a few turns. Turns where your Goyfs and Enforcery will kick him while he's laying on the ground - whining. It's also a quite useful tech against Survival (depends on the boardposition). White offers a lot of superior cardchoices compared to Red. The only thing
Meddling Mage and Gaddock Teeg are also a very nice tool to defend yourself against Landstill's Explosives, Wraths, Pernicious Deeds (Mage)... And Geddon pretty much wrecks it more than Blood Moon. It also depends on the rogue effect. If Blood Moon is your supersecret ninja-tech, it will work against Landstill, but if he's aware, he will fetch basic Islands. Then, even under Blood Moon, he's able to cycle Eternal Dragon to fetch his Plains and then Cunning Wish for Disenchant/Dismantling Blow and then he's back.

So stop playing Red? I have no issue with you not running UGR Threshold, I assure you, and you seem to be presenting excellent reasons not to play it.
Which again, are painfully irrelevent - White might or might not be better; It doesn't matter, as people will still run UGR, and I might as well try and give them the best list possible.

What Red has really got is - and I fully agree with you - Pyroclasm. BUT Pyroclasm also doesn't do more than Tivadar's Crusade, since - as you said yourself - Ringleader and Goblin Matron are the real dangerous Goblins you have to handle as they generate cardadvantage and have done their job as they resolve. That's why Tao, kimberley and me were more fans of Blueblasts. And I'm testing Stifle due to Oddball's suggestion. I think a mix of pyroclasm and Blasts/Stifle can indeed annihilate Goblins. But so could Crusade and Stifle (Special Thanks to Anti American for the constellation, it works great).

WW1 sucks as a casting cost. Run Dueling Grounds or ignore the MU if you're white in my opinion.

Also be aware of the setup you need when playing Blood Moon. It means to fetch together your own basiclands and so on. I also don't like about Blood Moon that he shuts off all your shuffle effects (Ponder...Hm, semi) and then makes Brainstorm...suck? At least a littlebit?

4 Blue Fetches, 3 Wooded Foothills, 1 Basic Forest and 2 Basic Island is not killing anyone, I assure you. Hold fetches until you need them if you've boared BM in. Price of Progress is another card to look at if you favor burning someone out of the game, which you might.

Even though Blood Moon may also be a very interesting card in the mirrormatch, I don't really like it because it's really clunky.
Price of Progress is way too specific. A single card just to beat 43Land... That's paranoid. In the mirrormatch also interesting, but it doesn't evade Counterbalance (CC2, Blood Moon would be better. But he's useless if your opponent fetches Island, Forest), is situational (depends on who leads the damage race) and is just like... like... Yoshimitzu's Harakiri-Attack from Tekken, where he turns aroung and sticks his sword through him and hit the opponent too. No kidding, I always have that scene in my head when thinking about PoP in NQGr.

If you see it G2, you board it out G3 for the mind fuck it gives. It forces them into fetching basics alot of the time, and very few people will play around it G2.

Against Goblins, Red has indeed the better Sideboard-Techs. Agreed. But something else? I don't really think so. And that's a point where you still can't convince me.

Then run White. I don't have a gun to your head.

EDIT;

raharu - Then you're still terrible in the mirror. All your "techy" burn can't kill off their creatures, and you can't just say, "Any creatures that slip through the wall O'counters and burn is going to be eaten by Tarmogoyf or Dragon" (especially since you're not running said Dragon, instead, playing a card that really doesn't help any matchup significantly.) Go find someone running Fledgling Dragon and Counterbalance MD over.....Thunderclap and BTS.

Also, reasons why the listed burn is poor;

Thunderclap - It cannot hit players, kill Goyf, Mongoose, or Dragon, it eats one of your 4 red sources, underwhelming in all aspects.

Fireblast - Great, I can cut myself off of Red for this whole game in exchange for (maybe) killing a Tarmogoyf in the early game....and I mean before turn 3. If you can recover from raping your manabase that way, you are a god.

Chain Lightning - A Sorcery that still can't kill anything in the mirror, and will likely get thrown back at you once the other player learns you run it and leave Red mana open.

Incinerate - Better, but still not amazing. Double the CC of Bolt, remove the ability to hit cards one turn one, but better than the other listed options.

Shock - Truthfully, sadly, what I would reccomend if you have OCD and are forced to run 8 burn spells MD. My condolences if this is the case....if not, you might want to do some honest testing.

[raharu]

@Goblin Snowman: I know you think that NQGr is good at controling so you'll hate to hear this, but the reason I would like to run 8 burn is the reach. Simply put, NQGr is the "Pressure" color (not really the agro color). The advantage NQGr provides over white threshold is the ability to rip the floor out from under someone when you've rocked your opponent back over their heels, but it looks as if they're going to stabilize. White can't do it, black can't do it, Ubw can't do it, and UG LD thresh shure as hell can't. I've thought it out and this is what I meant when I said that NQGr is the "agro" thresh, only a little more articulated. Burning-Tree Badass, Fledgling Dragon, and the burn are better at busting out damage from weird places than anything that the proceeding decks can compare them to, and this is why red is the "Pressure" color. When your opponent is very uncomfortable stabilizing at 10, you know you have a deck very good at applying pressure, but NQGr can only do this by running about 8 burn.

Right now I'm thinking either Fire/Ice or Magma Jet as the secondary burn, but really it's a play choice. Magma Jet Scrys where the Ice side of Fire/Ice is techy against other Tarmogoyfs (tap them before the Alpha Strike), Manlands (yes, he can pump a factory with ease, but he can't untap it), and one could use it to stop Mother of Runes or other tap effects (not really prevalent though). I would love to hear some other sugestions.

@Blood Moon: bad idea. It requires too much set-up to be worthwhile and gets handled fairly easily. NQGr does need some SB tech for the landstill MU though (Boil? The card that destroys all of your opponent's islands... I think it's 3R, but I don't remember...)

[kicks_422]

If you're dropping CB-Top for more burn, then I suggest adding a couple of Isochron Scepters. I ran them before as a 2-of, and were great as an unexpected threat, especially in the mirror after you both have emptied your hands.

[kabal]

Finale Emilia Legacygeddon on 23.12.2007
Participants: 114

4th Place - UGr Threshold by Luca Lovino

3 Burning-Tree Shaman
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Fire / Ice
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Snare

4 Ponder
2 Pyroclasm
3 Serum Visions

2 Pithing Needle

1 Forest
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
3 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Krosan Grip
3 Price of Progress
3 Compost
3 Control Magic
3 Tormod's Crypt

[Goblin Snowman]

raharu - List for me which matchups are solidly improved by running one shot cards that are unable to kill anything in the mirror. I can list for you every matchup that goes down when you're lacking an engine that shuts off an entire deck. State for me which MU you have tested extensively with both Burning-Tree and with Dragon, and with additional burn switched out for good cards. I'll list all the MUs that are improved by CB/Top - Every decks that casts spells. Your turn! (truthfully, every MU in the DBT Forum but Goblins and Rock. Survival can find ways around it, but you can really mess with them with a 2cc card on top. Oh, and FoW counters Shrikemaw).

kabal - And? Inferior lists can T8. It's a question of if you're willing to admit you cannot beat the mirror when they run CB/Top, and then being "good" enough to dodge the mirror, play bad players, or have insane draws against them.

[kabal]

kabal - And?

Just brought list into this discussion that top 4 in a 100+ person tournament from a week ago that was deemed horrible.