Dragon Stompy seems to have picked up in popularity over the past couple months, which is bad news for white Thresh. If they drop a turn 1 Chalice, Trinisphere, Moon, or Magus, you pretty much lose. I guess you just pray for Daze and Force to stop Chalice and Trini, and try to keep white mana open so you can float mana to Swords Magi but still fetch basics to fight Blood Moons? Oh, and then you also have to deal with Pit Dragons and Sloggers. Seems tough to do.
And games 2 and 3 aren't even much better. Counterbalances can come out for Grips... but there's really not much else you can do. Maybe bring in EE or BEBs too? Or some other tech?
Any thoughts on how to win this matchup, or at least make it more even?
Originally Posted by Volt
You are correct; Dragon Stompy is built to beat this deck, so the match is no fun.
Here's the manabase I've been running:
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
I know the basic Plains isn't very popular, but I keep winning games because I am able to cast Mystic Enforcer off of basics, or Swords Magus of the Moon even if I can't find the Swords the turn he is cast.
My sideboard is as follows:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Armageddon
4 Hydroblast
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Mystic Enforcer
Hydroblast is excellent, killing threats and cutting off mana production. In the testing I did, Dragon Stompy often drops a fair amount of disruption and a giant beast of some sort, but then peters out. If you can deal with one or two creatures before they kill you, you usually have time to win from there. You have seven cards that want to come in, but the only easy cut is Counterbalance. After that, you end up turning to Mongeese, Swords, or a cantrip, but you really want the cantrips for game two to try and find the Daze on the play. I certainly wouldn't remove all of the Swords, but you are bringing in the Hydroblasts, so removing one is probably acceptable. After that, the next three cards are much harder. Engineered Explosives is even possible, getting Chalice and Moxen, but probably not as good as the other 7 cards you can bring in.
If you face a large amount of Dragon and Faerie Stompy, you could run Annul for super-awesome savage tech lesbian points. Counters Chalice, Blood Moon, Jitte, Trinisphere, Moxen, and Sword of Fire and Ice, all for U.
InfoNinjas
There are some people here who would like to cut Nimble Mongoose. I've tried it several times with horrible results. 4 Nimble + 4 Goyf is set in stone for me. Although Mongeese seem weak compared to Goyfs they are not. It's shroud ability won me so many games its insane.
Enforcer or Hoofprints or both?
The problem with Enforcer (as with Fledgling Dragon) is that he is dead to often. I either cannot cast him or he's hit by removal or Mongeese + Goyf's already go all the way. Hoofprints is much harder to deal with (especially maindeck) and I rarely have problems to get 4 counters on it in 2 sometimes 3 turns if I have to (with my draw-heavy list). But I often simply don't use it because there are so many other thinks to do with the limited mana resources: Digging for Counterbalance, Top, removal (for a utility creature), Repeal and counter non-creature stuff, etc.
Still if I need a creature I can fall back to the Hoofprints plan.
Another important point is its card types. Tribal Enchantment boosts my Goyfs twice. I didn't believe this would be important but it is. The additional +2/+2 of (self) countered or predicted Hoffprints won me games!
Dragonstompy
Run 4 BEBs or Blasts. Granted they suck if the deck resolves a Chalice 1 but the matchup is far from unwinnable, it's just bad.
@ Adan:
I don't think 3 Shoal is the right way to go here. it really hurts to pitch an Accu into it and you have to do it eventually. Spell Snare seems strictly better in the long run for me although Shoal can hit Swords. I understand your intention for Shoal but 7 pitch cards will empty your hand too quickly I think and Shoal isn't a reliable counter.
TS Crew
Dragon Stompy is an ugly match-up. Game 1 you must have a fetch-land (for a basic island) plus a daze or force of will in your opening grip to have any chance. They are going to play one of the following disruption spells on turn 1: Chalice of the Void at 1 counter, Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon, or Trinisphere. If you can't stop this initial disruption spell, good luck finding the means of stopping anything else quickly enough to matter.
Post-Board you have blue elemental blast/hydroblast and engineered explosives. Don't bother with krosan grip; I know it sounds crazy, but you can only reliably fetch a single basic, and you want the basic island for your blasts and cantrips. EE at 0 takes out Chalices (even when under a moon effect), and then you can blast the heck out of moon effects, and cantrip into additional answers. The problem with grip is that if you fetch a basic forest, you are down to only goyfs and grips in the face of a resolved blood moon, and without your blue cantrips your goyf will be too small to go head to head with Dragon Stompy's beaters and you won't be able to dig for enough grips to handle 4 chalice, 4 trinisphere, and the 6-8 moon effects.
Even post board you do not have a good match-up, but you can win if you play flawlessly. If you can get past the first 1-3 turns without allowing them to resolve their disruption, you should win...otherwise it's game over.
"Dragon Stompy is a bad matchup" part 3.
Yes, it is, and many adviced have been given to you. They are correct and there's nothing to add. Just play tight. Dragon Stompy is a deck that tries to be fast. This leads to inconsistency and they run out of gas very early. of course there's always the possibility that he has got a initial disruptionspell twice, but it's easier to handle than the first one.
Just watch that you can prevent the worst case and then you will win of you drop a Goyf (actually they can't handle it).
YOU have the consistent deck and he has not.
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
QFT"Dragon Stompy is a bad matchup" part 3.
Yes, it is, and many adviced have been given to you. They are correct and there's nothing to add. Just play tight. Dragon Stompy is a deck that tries to be fast. This leads to inconsistency and they run out of gas very early. of course there's always the possibility that he has got a initial disruptionspell twice, but it's easier to handle than the first one.
Just watch that you can prevent the worst case and then you will win of you drop a Goyf (actually they can't handle it).
YOU have the consistent deck and he has not.
A match that starts with a lonely Chalice 1 or Trinisphere and no other disruption piece is still winnable if you have a decent 2-drop or enough land.
@ nastynate: I don't know if I would automatically fetch my Island first. Depends on the hand. The best answer to their deck is to drop Goyfs as Adan said. With a creature heavy hand I would prefer the Forest first (unless you need the island to daze him of course).
You absolutely need Krosan Grip in this matchup! The only thing that bothers a Grip is a Blood Moon effect (sometimes). Without it you will never remove a resolved Chalice/Trinisphere anymore and the match will be insanely difficult.
If the Blood Moon effect hits the board before you have a Forest you either need a BEB/Blast or most likely loose anyway because you can't play creatures anymore or any other removal.
TS Crew
Just board in everything.
I usually gut the Counterbalance-Engine and the Needles and in come 2 Krosan Grips, 3-4 Blasts (depends on the sideboard I have with me) and 2 Engineered Explosives. Free slots are filled up with SDT again since they can at least produce some CQ.
Last edited by Adan; 01-01-2008 at 05:52 PM.
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
Goyf will not win if you can't stop their disruption. Your goyf will end up chump blocking a hellbent raider or be unable to race a flying dragon. Meanwhile they can continue to resolve their threats and you'll be sitting on a lonely 2/3 or 3/4 goyf with no hope of making him bigger. Believe it or not, Dragon Stompy's beaters will almost always outclass your goyfs.@ nastynate: I don't know if I would automatically fetch my Island first. Depends on the hand. The best answer to their deck is to drop Goyfs as Adan said. With a creature heavy hand I would prefer the Forest first (unless you need the island to daze him of course).
The only thing that bothers grip may be blood moon, but isn't blood moon their number 1 priority? They run 6-8 moons (definitely 8 post-board) and will likely try to resolve them on the opening turn. Being that this is the case, you rarely get the chance to fetch more than a single basic land. (If you are on the draw, you might not even get the chance at all.) That basic land must be an island because your entire deck falls to pieces without blue-based spells (daze, brainstorm, ponder, and BEBs being the most important).You absolutely need Krosan Grip in this matchup! The only thing that bothers a Grip is a Blood Moon effect (sometimes). Without it you will never remove a resolved Chalice/Trinisphere anymore and the match will be insanely difficult. If the Blood Moon effect hits the board before you have a Forest you either need a BEB/Blast or most likely loose anyway because you can't play creatures anymore or any other removal.
Unless you have 8-12 fast answers you cannot match their disruption suite, and you can't run 8-12 grips. You can, however, run 8-12 blue and colorless answers (daze, blasts, EE, and cantrips to dig for more). Do you fetch a blood moon immune island so you can daze and blast, or do you fetch a forest so you can grip? Grip costs 3 mana...can you really wait that long to resolve it? How do you dig for more answers without brainstorm and ponder?
I'm not trying to say that grip is bad (it's still your best answer to 3sphere). I'm just trying to say that engineered explosives and BEBs are much more important. I board out 3 counterbalance, 2 mystic enforcer, and 2 counterspells for 4 blasts and 3 explosives. I guess I could also board out my needles for grips, but I've found it's easier to resolve a needle naming dragon than it is to reliably get both a blue and a green mana source on the table.
Most likely there will be an artifact in their graveyard. All the other stuff will be in the graveyard too unless he resolves a Trinisphere. With A Chalice 1 I keep casting spells and Mongeese to pump my Goyf and it was essential to do it nearly every time I faced Chalice 1. My Goyfs are more like 4/5 or 5/6 (not directly after you play them, though).
If you have no means to handle the Blood Moon effect and no BEB is in sight but you have a Mongoose and a Goyf in hand it can be very dangerous to fetch on Island to try to find a BEB or the lonely Forest or maybe a Plains if you play it.
Heck, if they resolve a Blood Moon first turn the game is pretty much sealed anyways unless you can handle it quickly or kill him quickly. As already said Dragon Stompy is not a deck known for its consistancy. They don't go Blood Moon go, nasty creature #1 go, nasty creature #2 go, dead all the time. So you might have a small window of opportunity to kill him.
Sure I daze and BEB but that is not the question. I already stated that I would fetch a Forest when I'm not able to deal with Moon/Magus.
Trinisphere: Both cost 3 mana. Grip > Needle
Chalice 1: Grip > Needle
Blood Moon and no Forest or mana open to respond: I would still prefer a Grip because it might get castable some time later.
Besides: If you don't get a green mana source on the board, how do you even win?
TS Crew
It's true that Dragon Stompy isn't the most consistent deck in existence, but I try to prepare for the worst case scenario. With eight 2-mana lands, 4 SSGs, 4 chrome mox, and 8 blood moons, turn one moon is very likely...it's primarily after that that the consistency can break down.Heck, if they resolve a Blood Moon first turn the game is pretty much sealed anyways unless you can handle it quickly or kill him quickly. As already said Dragon Stompy is not a deck known for its consistancy. They don't go Blood Moon go, nasty creature #1 go, nasty creature #2 go, dead all the time. So you might have a small window of opportunity to kill him.
Where as I would rather have cantrips to dig for blue answers, than cross my fingers and hope to topdeck krosan grip. With brainstorm and ponder I'm far more likely to find BEB than I am to find grip without them.Sure I daze and BEB but that is not the question. I already stated that I would fetch a Forest when I'm not able to deal with Moon/Magus.
I guess it's just a different mentality. I don't worry about winning until I've dealt with moon effects; then green mana sources are not a problem, and neither is winning. Dragon Stompy has far more moon effects than 3sphere effects, so I try to rely on cantrips and counters to deal with 3sphere; EE can also deal with 3sphere if I can stop moons.Trinisphere: Both cost 3 mana. Grip > Needle
Chalice 1: Grip > Needle
Blood Moon and no Forest or mana open to respond: I would still prefer a Grip because it might get castable some time later.
Besides: If you don't get a green mana source on the board, how do you even win?
As long as I stop the moons, I feel confidant in my chances to win, but every other time I have lost the game. I'm very reluctant to go for broke with a goyf, plow a 1CC artifact into CotV (to grow goyf a little more), and try to match their disruption suite with nothing more than krosan grip and a handful of creatures (which is all I'll have if I fetch a forest). I don't think Threshold should assume the beat down role in this match-up, but I'll give it go in testing and see if it's an option I am just instinctively overlooking. I'll happily eat my words if it turns out that I can pull it off.
You will definately need access to first turn basic and force to have a chance. PKeg becomes a very attractive option no matter how slow when your stuck under moons effects cant cast anything else anyway. Annul is some spicy tech. Also good for the flood of stax decks popping up. Overall I agree with DStompy being a very bad match up and if it is a major competitor in your meta swap to a diff deck.
Ummmm... Fucking genius ? That pretty much sums up all of the good options thresh has for Stax/ Stompy, all of which are pretty much super secret ninja ganster hoe cappin' tech. Anull has been mentioned, but Powder Keg is savage tech that breaks everything of off mountains and breaks Chalice the turn it's droped for the same amount of mana as EE. On a side note, BEB is nice too if it's dragon stompy in specific, but it's too narrow to consider otherwise. Wow... Powder Keg. Seriously savage.
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If it's all in our heads, it's best that we don't loose them.
It's really not much better than EE...seriously, it's not. You can, of course, cast keg on turn two and sac it to kill chalice of the void (and chrome mox), but you can do the same thing with engineered explosives.
The only advantage powder keg has in this match-up is the ability to take out 0 casting cost targets while under a 3sphere, which is impossible with EE due to sunburst, and not coincidentally one of the reasons why dragon stompy pilots run keg in their board. This minor advantage is generally outweighed however, by the fact that EE is better than keg when used against decks without blood moons (aka everything else).
What do you guys think about 1 or 2 copies of Horizon Canopy in the deck? I am currently unsure as to whether the risk on the manabase (and the small amount of damage) is worth the late game reward. I would be interested to hear what others have to say about this.
Generally speaking, the deck has enough cantrips in the deck, and often times will only ever intentionally draw 2-3 lands a game.
You'd probably be better off running basics, unless you prefer the stifle/wasteland setup.
If going into a meta infested w/ Dragon Stompy and you are too stuborn to play a deck other than UGw thresh, what about running 3-4 Chrome mox of your own in the board? Granted, this is assuming you arent playing/boarding in EE to blow chalice.
All you really need it 1 blue mana available to you, and you can assume you'll cantrip into answers. Generally you are a card quality/advantage machine, tossing one to Chrome Mox shouldnt be a problem.
I think the only real reason that Dragon Stompy does so well against Thresh is that it is largely unprepared. We should be able to find some kind of synergistic 'tech' that will break the matchup wide open.
Yep. And as already said Annul is the way to go here because it is a very versatile answer that really helps againt many difficult matchups. It answers many must-counters for *****: Deed, Standstill, Crucible, Stax stuff, Equipment, Counterbalance, even Dreadnought.
The only problem I have is to sqeeze them into the board because if I play them I want a playset.
With a board featuring 3-4 Hydroblast and 3-4 Annul the Dragonstompy matchup will get much better postboard. Although it won't turn to our favor I guess. Problem is, as said that my meta wouldn'd justifiy this kind of board configuration.
TS Crew
I'm not too keen on making the mana base even more vulnerable than it already is. Horizon canopy is great card, but threshold just doesn't have room for it.What do you guys think about 1 or 2 copies of Horizon Canopy in the deck? I am currently unsure as to whether the risk on the manabase (and the small amount of damage) is worth the late game reward. I would be interested to hear what others have to say about this.
Basics are necessary; if you run stifle + wastes, you have almost no chance to win through non-basic hate like crucible + waste or blood moon.Generally speaking, the deck has enough cantrips in the deck, and often times will only ever intentionally draw 2-3 lands a game. You'd probably be better off running basics, unless you prefer the stifle/wasteland setup.
Ewww...that's some pretty terrible side-board tech. EE is still better than chrome mox against dragon stompy (assuming you actually have basic lands to fetch), and better than chrome mox against just about everything else too.If going into a meta infested w/ Dragon Stompy and you are too stuborn to play a deck other than UGw thresh, what about running 3-4 Chrome mox of your own in the board? Granted, this is assuming you arent playing/boarding in EE to blow chalice.
You can't assume you'll cantrip into answers if you have no way to remove CotV set at 1 counter. That's why I've been advocating EE + BEB in this match-up so adamantly. EE gives you a means of removing CotV which frees up your cantrip engine to dig for answers, and BEBs to deal with red beaters and moon effects...then once you have dealt with blood moon/magus of the moon, you'll get access to your other colors, stabilize, and can go on to win.All you really need it 1 blue mana available to you, and you can assume you'll cantrip into answers. Generally you are a card quality/advantage machine, tossing one to Chrome Mox shouldnt be a problem.
It's not because we are unprepared. The reason dragon stompy actually does so well against UGW Threshold is because it is built to destroy the mana bases of decks running multiple dual lands/fetch-lands, and punish decks with low curves through CotV and Trinisphere. Dragon Stompy proactively attacks our core strategy (aka cantrips and a low-curve, multi-color mana base). It's designed to beat us.I think the only real reason that Dragon Stompy does so well against Thresh is that it is largely unprepared. We should be able to find some kind of synergistic 'tech' that will break the matchup wide open.
The synergistic 'tech' to break this match-up wide open is to play a different and more resilient mana base (like UG threshold with MD Tyrgon Predator) so you can actually resolve your spells. You really aren't going to find better answers than BEB, EE, and Grip without changing the core vulnerabilities of the deck.
Not every match-up is going to be a positive one, and this is just one of those unfortunate match-ups that does not favor UGW threshold. You can either do your best to pull out a win with versatile side-board tools good against the whole meta, or you can play something else.
Turning an unfavorable match-up into a favorable one, in this case, would require butchering the side-board and the main deck, and very likely diminish our match-up against everything else. If there were a 2 casting cost nev's disk available then I'd agree with you, but there really is no techy solution to the dragon stompy problem. Play tight, know your weaknesses, and cross your fingers.
Yeah, annul would be awesome, but I can't figure a way to squeeze it into the board without hurting the match-ups against some other decks, and even with annul I think Dragon Stompy still has the advantage. First turn moon, CotV, or 3sphere when we're on the draw make most of our reactive answers irrelevant...you better have FoW in your opening grip or you're in trouble.
Last edited by nastynate; 01-10-2008 at 12:59 PM.
This is going to be easy; you should be feteching out your Basic Island and siding in Hydroblasts and Krosan Grips/Engineered Explosives. I mean, BEB is just so money against them. BEB kills all the big threats like Blood Moon, Magus, Slogger, and Yamabushi and stuff meanwhile Grips go for the Moons and Chalices.
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That's basically what everyone else has been saying already. It doesn't make the match-up favorable (nothing really will), but it does make the match-up win-able.
It's a great card, but this the wrong deck for it. Thresh isn't configured to abuse and/or recur it and needs to keep its non-blue mana sources to an minimum. A single basic Forest (and the occasional basic Plains, for versions running a deep splash in white) are helpful in a host of situations and are worth it.What do you guys think about 1 or 2 copies of Horizon Canopy in the deck? I am currently unsure as to whether the risk on the manabase (and the small amount of damage) is worth the late game reward. I would be interested to hear what others have to say about this.
Basically, if Savannah is subpar here, I don't see Horizon Canopy being any better. I do like it in U/g/w Landstill w/ Crucible, but that is neither here nor there in this thread.
I tested Chrome Moxen a couple of years ago in this deck and found that reaching threshold was a real pain in the ass. Anyway, if there were some weird ass backwater metagame on the dark side of the moon where Dragon Stompy and Stax made up a significant portion of the field, I would advise playing something other than this deck. Here on earth, EE just does more for a lot less hassle. :)If going into a meta infested w/ Dragon Stompy and you are too stuborn to play a deck other than UGw thresh, what about running 3-4 Chrome mox of your own in the board?
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