[Deck] Belcher

[Shugyosha]

You should really try the Magus tech. I know the guy who went first place with it and he confirmed me that it was quite good. He also went 8th in the same tourney with mostly the same build one month later.

Although he runs Magus and Blasts the deck still seems to run smooth enough. I'm playing with Magus myself but I'm still not too thrilled about Blasts main.

[Wallace]

So how about we add a Draw 5-7 card effect to the deck?

Slithermuse

Creature - ElementalWhen Slithermuse leaves play, choose an opponent. If that player has more cards in hand than you, draw cards equal to the difference.
Evoke


Anybody think Slithermuse will have an inpact on this deck?

[Bovinious]

With what blue mana would you evoke that? You have 4 Lotus Petal, and if you wanted to toss Wild Cantor back in the deck youd have that but even so thats just 8 blue sources...you cant even Burning Wish for it and use LED mana to pay for it. Doesnt seem to great here.

[BreathWeapon]

With what blue mana would you evoke that? You have 4 Lotus Petal, and if you wanted to toss Wild Cantor back in the deck youd have that but even so thats just 8 blue sources...you cant even Burning Wish for it and use LED mana to pay for it. Doesnt seem to great here.

4 Land Grant + 1 Tropical Island + 4 Lotus Petal + 4 Wild Cantor = 13 U sources. I've been running Slither Muse in both the 13 U configuration and as a Living Wish target and both of them have impressed me so far. The increased Belcher misfires are worth the additional threats, tho' I'm not certain the 13 U configuration is superior to 8 MD blasts.

[Tacosnape]

If only they'd hurry up and print Vodalian Spirit Guide.

Seriously, though. This occurred to me in Belcher, but I am a little hesitant about the lack of blue.

[JDunkin00]

If only they'd hurry up and print Vodalian Spirit Guide.

Seriously, though. This occurred to me in Belcher, but I am a little hesitant about the lack of blue.

Glad that was sarcastic cause blue with hidden mana is bad news. Plus you can run Wheel of Fate in the deck as is if you just desire some draw.

[Bovinious]

4 Land Grant + 1 Tropical Island + 4 Lotus Petal + 4 Wild Cantor = 13 U sources. I've been running Slither Muse in both the 13 U configuration and as a Living Wish target and both of them have impressed me so far. The increased Belcher misfires are worth the additional threats, tho' I'm not certain the 13 U configuration is superior to 8 MD blasts.

Tropical Island seems bad, theres a reason no one plays Bayou and Dark Ritual anymore, the same goes for Tropical and Slithermuse. And why are you back suggesting Living Wish? That card is not good in this deck, if you want to play Storm Entity MD/SB (I hope thats what its for...) then run it but dont run awful cards like Living Wish.

Glad that was sarcastic cause blue with hidden mana is bad news. Plus you can run Wheel of Fate in the deck as is if you just desire some draw.

Wheel of Fate. No, just no.

[BreathWeapon]

Tropical Island seems bad, theres a reason no one plays Bayou and Dark Ritual anymore, the same goes for Tropical and Slithermuse. And why are you back suggesting Living Wish? That card is not good in this deck, if you want to play Storm Entity MD/SB (I hope thats what its for...) then run it but dont run awful cards like Living Wish.



Wheel of Fate. No, just no.

I know the reason Bayou and Dark Ritual were cut, I was the one that advocated cutting them in the first place, I also know the difference between what Bayou and Dark Ritual adds to the deck and what Tropical Island and Slithermuse adds to the deck.

Living Wish isn't bad, it's mediocre, but that's acceptable considering there's no other threat in either color that the deck can use. 1G+2U for a Slithermuse is less cost/risk than 1R + 2UU for Diminishing Returns and the deck gains access to Goblin Welder, Ancient Tomb, Storm Entity, Magus of the Moon etc.
Living Wish is only as good or as bad as its targets, and Slithermuse is a pretty good new target.

I'm not advocating anything, I'm just testing a new card, so chill out.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Just one Question...

In a R/G Build with only 1 Taiga but 4 Pyroblasts main, when you have 4 open Slots...

Would you Run Wild Cantor or Street Wraith???

Thx for Help

[spider900]

Just one Question...

In a R/G Build with only 1 Taiga but 4 Pyroblasts main, when you have 4 open Slots...

Would you Run Wild Cantor or Street Wraith???

Thx for Help

I would run Street Wraith since he digs for Finishers or Burning Wish (which is also kinda win condition, but also an answer to hate). I run 3 Street Wraith in my version, too, and I never felt it too hard to make a decision whether to mulligan or not...I really won't run Cantor instead of him, 'cause Cantor only gives you the right color of mana which I have in most cases already without him...

Spider

[Humphrey]

Slithermuse is Evoke

[aTn]

Hi guys.

I've played Belcher a bit during the time fellow Montrealer's (Team CRET) had success with the deck. Althought I liked the deck, I always favored Threshold as my deck of choice to take out to local tournaments. These days, I'm thinking of picking it up Belcher again and I'd like to know your take on recent developpments.

1. - 4 Dark Ritual:

Is playing Dark Ritual that hard ? Running 4 Cantor, 4 Lotus Petal, 4 Land Grant and 1 Bayou, it never occured to me that getting B was a huge problem. Maybe your opponent can deny your black sources by killing Cantor, wasting Bayou or getting rid of Lotus Petal, but that doesn't seem likely (I might be wrong, since I haven't played the deck in a long time).

2. Street Wraith:

I have no 'real' opinion on this, since I haven't tested it yet.

3. 4 Pyroblast maindeck:

Same as (2).

Are there current lists that are considered to be 'standard' ?

[Tacosnape]

In a short summary

1. Dark Ritual -can- be played, but the acceleration you gain isn't worth all the inconsistency.

2. Street Wraith blows.

3. Pyroblast is maindecked because without Dark Ritual, there isn't another mana accelerant to run in that slot that anyone's come up with.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Hi guys.

I've played Belcher a bit during the time fellow Montrealer's (Team CRET) had success with the deck. Althought I liked the deck, I always favored Threshold as my deck of choice to take out to local tournaments. These days, I'm thinking of picking it up Belcher again and I'd like to know your take on recent developpments.

1. - 4 Dark Ritual:

Is playing Dark Ritual that hard ? Running 4 Cantor, 4 Lotus Petal, 4 Land Grant and 1 Bayou, it never occured to me that getting B was a huge problem. Maybe your opponent can deny your black sources by killing Cantor, wasting Bayou or getting rid of Lotus Petal, but that doesn't seem likely (I might be wrong, since I haven't played the deck in a long time).

2. Street Wraith:

I have no 'real' opinion on this, since I haven't tested it yet.

3. 4 Pyroblast maindeck:

Same as (2).

Are there current lists that are considered to be 'standard' ?

aTn, there are a bunch of different versions to play u can go R/G, R/G/B, R/G with 1 land, it just depends on your playstyle. I personally think black HAS to be in the deck for dark ritual, cabal ritual, and plunge into darkness/spoils of the vault. I have talked with a lot of people around my local Legacy tournies about belcher any everyone unanimously agrees black has to be in there but the street wraith option is up in the air. Street Wraith terrifies me so I don't play it. Here is the verson I currently play, if nothing else I mulligan a lot less than I did with only R/G versions and have consistently stronger starting hands.
Main Deck
Land:
4x Land Grant
1x Bayou
1x Taiga

Artifacts:
4x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal
4x LED

Creatures
4x Tinder Wall
4x ESG
4x SSG

Rituals
4x Dark Ritual
4x Seething Song
4x Rite of Flame
4x Cabal Ritual

Kill
4x Goblin Charbelcher
3x Empty the Warrens
4x Burning Wish
3x Spoils of the Vault (could be plunge)

Sideboard
1x Reverent Silence
1x Cave-In
1x Pyroclasm
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Hull Breach
1x Goblin War Strike
3x Shattering Spree
3x Pyroblast
3x Xantid Swarm

I have tried all of the builds especially the one with magus and pyroblasts main but I just never found it as consistent as this build. Anyway, it all comes down to your local meta and playstyle, try some different builds and see which one suits you.

[aTn]

Thanks for your advice (Taco, Pulp). I've played the CRET version of the deck for some time and I feel comfortable with it. That being said, I haven't tested some match-ups like Dragon Stompy and Dreadstill (which seem pretty hard).

[ACME_Myst]

Time to get some attention towards this deck.

Note that I'm not actually playing this deck right now, but I'm an avid combo player anyway so it does have my interest.

Anyway, I'm currently working on a computer program thats able to pilot Belcher completely on it's own. If you wonder how this works, here's an example:

The program "shuffles" up the deck, draws a random hand, then sees if it can combo with it. Here's a piece of example output:

Hand (7):
Lotus Petal
Tinder Wall
Lotus Petal
Chrome Mox
Goblin Charbelcher
Lions Eye Diamond
Wild Cantor
Keep


Plays out like this:

Lotus Petal  (G)
Lotus Petal  (GG)
Chrome Mox -> imprint Wild Cantor (GGG)
Tinder Wall  (RRGG)
Lions Eye Diamond (RRGG)
Goblin Charbelcher ()
Crack Lions Eye Diamond (RRR)
Activate Goblin Charbelcher

Finished. Press return to run again.

Or an example using EtW:

Hand (7):
Simian Spirit Guide
Street Wraith
Land Grant
Chrome Mox
Wild Cantor
Simian Spirit Guide
Rite of Flame
Mulligan

Hand (6):
Elvish Spirit Guide
Tinder Wall
Wild Cantor
Lions Eye Diamond
Burning Wish
Rite of Flame
Keep


Plays out like this:

Elvish Spirit Guide  (G - Storm 0)
Tinder Wall  (RR - Storm 1)
Wild Cantor  (RG - Storm 2)
Rite of Flame  (RRG - Storm 3)
Lions Eye Diamond (RRG - Storm 4)
Burning Wish (G - Storm 5)
Crack Lions Eye Diamond (RRRG - Storm 5)
Wish for Empty The Warrens
Empty The Warrens for 12 tokens ( - Storm 6)


Finished. Press return to run again.

Please note that as of now the program isn't finished or bug free, but as you can see we're getting some nice results already.

Why am I telling you this? The reason is simple:

Once I'm finished building the program, and have incorporated all logic needed, we can use the program to find the Absolute Fastest Belcher List Possible (tm). The program could go over thousands of hands for every possible permutation of the decklist, and finally present the list with the best results, tweaked to the very last card.

Now, what I need from you, the community (if you want to help, ofcourse), is a list of all possible cards that should be tried for the deck. I'll edit this post with all cards that are named.

Finally, I'll edit in an URL to download the temporary program (the one whose results are above) once I've worked out the biggest problems.

[Edit]
Here's the first list of cards that might be tested. If you feel more of them should be on here, or some shouldn't be, feel free to say so:

Lands
Taiga, Bayou

Artifact Mana
Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lotus Bloom (wtf)

Red Mana Accelerants
Rite of Flame, Desperate Ritual, Seething Song, Simian Spirit Guide

Black Mana Accelerants
Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual

Green Mana Accelerants
Elvish Spirit Guide, Channel the Suns, Land Grant, Tinder Wall, Birds of Paradise

Tutors
Burning Wish, Infernal Tutor, Spoils of the Vault, Gamble, Plunge into Darkness

Win
Empty the Warrens, Goblin Charbelcher, Storm Entity (mh)

Filler Cards
Street Wraith, Wild Cantor

Protection / Backup (difficult to test)
Pyroblast, Red Elemental Blast, Duress, Thoughtseize, Xantid Swarm, Pact of Negation, Goblin Welder, Unmask, Cabal Therapy, Dark Confidant, Magus of the Moon

Strange ideas
Leyline of the Meek, Serum Powder

Wishboard-only cards
Goblin War Strike, Shattering Spree, Hull Breach, Simplify, Tendrils of Agony, Diminishing Returns, Cave-In, Pyroclasm, Rough // Tumble, Tremor, Ignite Memories, Deconstruct, Echoing Ruin

Big thanks to Brehn for giving me the complete list.

[kicks_422]

Wow. That's cool. However, all you're calculating is speed, with no room for protection/disruption (e.g. 4 Pyroblasts MD)... Still a very useful program to see what the fastest list would be, and then go from there for protection or whatever.

[ACME_Myst]

Yes, that's indeed a problem. You could still include Pyroblasts in the deck, even use them to up the stormcount, but it probably won't be any good if the only result we're looking at is speed.

Obviously very fast lists exist already, but I daresay nobody is going to do 5000 goldfishes to see if 3x Cantor / 4x Tinder Wall is more optimal than 4x Cantor / 3x Tinder Wall.

Btw, if there a any coders on these boards who would like to help / are interested in seeing the code, drop me a PM.

[kicks_422]

Could you calculate how much speed a certain card adds to the deck? Because if you could, then once the fastest list is found out, maybe you could take out the cards which contribute the least to speed and replace them with Pyroblasts.

[ACME_Myst]

That's not really needed. I just figured out how to bypass the problem:

Instead of asking the question "Give me the fastest list possible", just ask for "The fastest list containing 4x Pyroblast".

That actually was way to simple :p.

I'm now down to the last few points on the bot, before I'm going to release the program:

- He now refuses to imprint winconditions on Chrome Moxen.
- Street Wraiths are now only used as imprint fodder.
- He can only play hands on turn 1, on the play. A turn structure should be added.

Once that is fixed, I can begin to implement all the other cards. Once that is done, a program has to be written to create all possible permutations of decklists and track their results. Then it's only a matter of time before we get sme results.

Hopefully by tonight I'll have the program uploaded in it's first state (using only my current decklist).