I would keep that hand. The play is:Originally Posted by Mordenkain
Turn 1, land Go. EOT Fetch Trop, Brainstorm. If you find a Combo Piece, Upkeep Worldly to find the other and shuffle the chaff away. If it's countered (I can't imagine why it would be), you can still shuffle with a fetch.
In fact, that seems like a pretty good hand to me. You autowin vs. TES.
I've been testing and having great success with a build which uses the Ghoul kill with Dreadnoughts, along with Stifles or Dreadnoughts as a back-up, or even cast one and in resp Vial in another to cheat one into play.
Well, for one thing the manabase is more solid. The Stifles also help a lot in random situations, so they're not dead without Dreadnoughts. The tutors are replaced by Vaults, and since both combos in the deck are two-card ones, it's fairly easy to assemble either one.
The original list from the VA D4D where it took 4 T8 slots ran StifleNought. It was dumped pretty much on the spot when people realized how amazing the 4x Goyf backup plan is. It's not that it's bad, persay, but a 2 card combo that wins already exists in the deck, and the backup plan of "Make guy, swing" is better as Goyfs.
This isn't correct. There were 2 distinct lists that made up the 4 T8 decklists at the VA DLD. Two decklists opted for Kiki, Sky Hussar and the other two opted for Dreadnought plan.
Ok, so, the original Sutured Ghoul list from the D4D then. The point is still valid - the Goyf plan is generally better than the Nought plan.
Nightmare's right. The Tarmogoyf backup plan is what makes this deck sick. I can't tell you how many times in recent testing I managed to just barely keep my opponent off the combo only to find a pair of Tarmogoyfs hitting me in the face.
Fundamentally, you only need the backup plan when you can't pull a 2-card combo off for whatever reason. Therefore it's a lot easier to randomly have a Tarmogoyf in hand ready to fill a backup role than to hunt up a Stifle-Dreadnought combo. The greatness of the Tarmogoyf plan is not having to hunt it up.
Actually, the true strength of the Goyf is just the opposite. He draws fire and attention from the opponent until you've assembles a hand that can win. If he goes unchecked he wins the game, so your opponent MUST answer him. While they try to do that, you go about plan A - winning with a Ghoul.
Take this scenario, you're playing against thresh. You cast Aether Vial turn 1 and they Force of Will it. They play a Delta for Tundra and pass. Your turn 2 comes and you can Either play a Lim Duls Vault to find the En-Kor that you need to combo out or Goyf to apply pressure in that way. Goyf would be a 3/4, but likely to get to a 4/5 with any Sorcery or Creature. You have no Force in hand.
Which choice do you take Nightmare?
Couldn't you find a stack with force and combo piece? It would be better because on the long run Thresh will win by sculpting there hand.
It would probably depend what color Thresh.
I choose Goyf for 2 reasons.
1 - If it gets Dazed or Forced or StP'd, it's one less disruption spell they have to keep me from winning. The Vault is more important to protect, because it's without question one of the strongest threats in the deck. I wait to Vault until I can protect it with a Force or a land to pay for Daze (I'm Ok with them Forcing it - it's actually a 3-1 as far as card advantage goes, since it's a disadvantage tutor - but not ok with them Dazing it.)
2 - at 3/4, Goyf is large enough to stall the ground vs. a Mongoose or another Goyf. If they let the Goyf resolve, you can either begin to apply pressure (putting them on D), or use him as a wall to stall the pressure yourself. The more land you have in play, the more options you have for fighting through their disruption.
You could, but you might not have a blue card to pitch and even if you had a brainstorm to draw all the pieces at once, that would leave you one mana short of comboing out turn 3. Basically, Nightmare uses goyf more aggressively than I do, and was wondering if he would rather combo out blind or play a Goyf and have them waste an answer on it.
EDIT: Okay thanks. I'm trying to improve my play, and scenarios like this help.
Just to update, is this the mostly agreed apoun decklist?
// Lands
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
// Creatures
1 Shaman en-Kor
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nomads en-Kor
4 Cephalid Illusionist
3 Narcomoeba
1 Sutured Ghoul
// Spells
4 AEther Vial
3 Abeyance
3 Worldly Tutor
3 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread Return
1 Dragon Breath
Also, out of interest of how you guys plays (most likely better than me), heres some sample hands for mulligan consideration. These are some the situations that have come up for me in testing, which sometimes give me a headache about wether to mulligan or not.
//Hand 1:
Tundra
Fetch
Vial
FoW
Brainstorm
Dragon Breath
Vault
//Hand 2:
Fetch
Worldly Tutor
Nomads En-Kor
Goyf
FoW
Narcomoeba
Cabal Therapy
//Hand 3:
Abeyance
Trop Island
U. Sea
Illusionist
Vial
Brainstorm
Brainstorm
//Hand 4:
Goyf
Fetch
Fetch
FoW
FoW
Brainstorm
Vial
//Hand 5:
Vault
Worldly Tutor
Fetch
Tundra
Brainstorm
Sutured Ghoul
Cabal Theraphy
All these hands are against unknown opponent game 1, going first.
That will be it for now. Come on guys, lets keep the discussion flowing.
- Mordenkain
This is debatable depending on how big my boobs feel in the morning.
Because of I love kiky-karmic kill, I'm playing this list uwb:
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [R] Tundra
4 [R] Underground Sea
1 [P2] Island (3)
// Creatures
3 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [SH] Nomads en-Kor
1 [SH] Shaman en-Kor
4 [TO] Cephalid Illusionist
1 [UL] Karmic Guide
1 [DIS] Sky Hussar
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [MM] Brainstorm
1 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [AL] Lim-Dul's Vault
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [NE] Daze
1 [MM] Misdirection
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [WL] Abeyance
SB: 4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
SB: 3 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
I like very much lim-dul. I think that playing a 3c version with vault is much better than playing green tutor, if we want to close with kiky.
So I can play better terapy from from hand to protect my gameplan.
I' not sure about mono-misdi. Can be it useful as the 5th force?
I could cut 3 daze and misdi for a secondary kill...but what? can be it possible?
can be a good choice -3 daze - 1 misdi +4 thoughtseize?
Edit: - 3 daze - 1 misdi + 4 thoughtseize
- 4 ponder +3 dark confidant + 1 psycoatog
- 1 cabal + 1 stern proctor
Last edited by kikkofrio; 11-16-2007 at 06:37 AM.
I'd go -1 Abeyance, +1 Echoing Truth.
Okay, I'm game. Keep this hand, lead with Tundra, Vial. If they Force it, you probably don't Force back, as you want your Storm/Vault to find your pieces, and you probably want to save the Force to resolve the Vault. Follow that up by dropping a Fetch and passing, then EOT Brainstorm, and shuffle back Dragon Breath. Pass again and Vault, and hopefully you've got the combo now. You probably combo out on Turn 4, with Force backup if you're lucky.
Send this back. While it looks like you've got a lot of action with Force/Narcomoeba, Nomads and a Tutor, Cabal Therapy, and even a Goyf for backup, hands like this are too dangerous to play. You've only got 16 lands in the deck, and if you don't find one, like now, you lose. That's not a good situation to be in. I might have kept this with Vial, and maybe with Brainstorm. Not optimal, but you can do it. I just hate keeping one-landers.
This is pretty good. It plays out pretty robotically. Lead with Vial, hope it resolves. Brainstorm into some good cards, play them. Vial in your combo, probably win on turn 3 or 4 with Abeyance backup. You're basically just hoping you can Brainstorm into a Fetch to grab your Tundra and make your second Brainstorm good.
This'll work. Not perfect, but certainly not a mulligan. Drop Vial, Brainstorm into some good stuff, Vial in Goyf to buy you a turn or two.
This one's fine, too. First turn Brainstorm, then shuffle back Sutured Ghoul. Then you've got a couple choices, depending on what your opponent does and what you Storm into. You can either Cabal Therapy and leave Worldly Tutor mana up, or you can Vault into something good. You'll probably combo off on turn 4 here, with a hand strength dependent upon the strength of your Brainstorm/Vault, and knowledge based on your Therapy.
With 4 lists going 4-1 or better in the Worlds, why isn't there any discussion about this deck. Is the most ideal built found? If I compare the list, with the lists at the last pages there are quite some differences.
Some discussion points.
- All decks ran Ponder over Lim-Dul's Vault. Wich one is better?
- Abeyance MD or SB?
- Is Daze still playable in this deck
- How many Cabal Therapys are needed
If you guys doesn't like searching for the decklists, here is the link.
BB
What is going on with Cephalid Breakfast? Is anyone playing this at the moment? Or is it not viable nowadays..
I have a question about Counterbalance. What is the best way to fight Counterbalance? The cc1 and cc2 spells shut down our combo and against a cc4 spell (eg. Landstill)we lose too. Is the best way to handle Counterbalance post board Wipe Away?
Thx Mage
Team CS ~Fear is our tradition~
The best way to combat Counterbalance is to resolve Aether Vial. If you didn't draw one you can use Cabal Therapy to make your opponent discard CB or simply Force it.
Concerning the lack of Lim-Duls Vault I'd say this deck has evolved from a pure combo deck into a Goyfdeck with combo finish. First turn fetch + Ponder, Force your spell, second turn Goyf is just infinitely better than playing Lim-Duls Vault at some point here.
Now one problem with the viability of this deck is that it is really hard to just pick up and play as it is really hard to find all the tricks you can do with the deck without proper testing. For example at the GP Stuttgart sideevent there was a Breakfast player at the top tables who was playing against Elves. He had a Nomads en Kor in play and 2 cards in hand and every turn he'd just take some damage from a Wren's Run Vanquisher (or whatever that 3/3 deathtouch guy is called) and tap on his deck in hopes for the right card. He drew some lands and some more en Kor guys before he finally died to the elf. In his had he had a Sutured Ghoul and a Worldly Tutor. It was only after that game someone told him he could have used flashback Cabal Therapy to discard Sutured Ghoul and finish the combo.
Another example: At the last tournament in Speyer I was nearby when I heard a Breakfast player (the one who won the tournament) talk about his match against Burn with Magus of the Moon and he said that he got his combo thanks to Aether Vial but he couldn't get through for enough damage because of all the chumpblockers (I assume there were multiple Magus of the Moon and Keldon Marauders). He also said that after the match he found out that he could've used Dragon Breath to pump his Ghoul for exactly lethal (thanks to the Mountains given by Magus of the Moon).
"Anybody want some . . . toast?" —Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
One of the reasons the deck isn't as popular as it should be is because it can't deal with aggro well, Goblins, Burn and Zoo etc. are all unfavorable match ups. The deck does well against the Tier 1 decks, Standstill, Threshold, Storm Combo, Dredge Combo etc. but the deck is at a disadvantage in a tournament setting because it has to fight thru' it's worst match ups before it can capitalize on its best match ups. If it loses an early match up to aggro, the effect snow balls, because all of the aggro tends to be at the bottom of the rankings.
In short, it loses to the most common form of randomness.
That is hilarious.People losing because of their own cards is always so funny to me. Also it could have been burningoyf. I hear they tend to soak up lots of damage after someone mills themself.
Does this deck just scoop to Planar Void? I'm thinking of slipping 4 in my landstill board if I see a lot of breakfast in my tourneys.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote