QFT. Wraith is an awful idea.Originally Posted by Phantom
I don't advocate cutting Seething Song. Song is too broken with Pit Dragon, Slogger, Jitte/Equip, Sofi/Equip, or general turn 1-2 asshattery involving dropping 2 permanents in one swoop.
Dragon Stompy relies heavily on its incredibly explosive aggressive starts to win matches when its disruption pieces can't. Song is a very important part of that. Dragon Stompy, while in need of consistency that Song can't provide, can't afford to pursue such consistency at the expense of power.
Has Taste for Mayhem been discussed? It has the advantage of instant gratification over Equip, and the hellbent is nice, but I'm not sure if it makes the cut as it doesn't mix well with Chalice. Thoughts?
Too small of an effect for the card disadvantage from Chalice and removal on targeted creatures. All of the three possible equipments provide some sort of card advantage, though removal, card drawing, and recursion.
// Lands
11 [IA] Snow-Covered Mountain
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
// Creatures
4 [FUT] Gathan Raiders
2 [MR] Arc-Slogger
4 [DIS] Rakdos Pit Dragon
3 [MOR] Taurean Mauler
3 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
// Spells
4 [9E] Seething Song
4 [8E] Blood Moon
4 [DS] Trinisphere
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [10E] Pyroclasm
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [UD] Powder Keg
SB: 3 [PS] Flametongue Kavu
After some debating I have decided to give up on Hellbent Stompy, as it seemed not to be working out to well. I will be going back to just plain Dragon Stompy. However I want people's opinions on how this deck build looks?
I much prefer Leyline of the Void over Tormod's Crypt, as it is hard for a person to shut it down with Chalice of the Void... however I realize that Leyline of the Void is probably not the most playable card in this deck. So I was wondering whether it is worth it, or if I should go with Tormod's Crypt just for the hell of it?
I decided to run Mauler over Razormane Masticore, as it is a method of shutting down peoples spells a little bit at a time. However it is more of a soft lock than a full on hard lock.
Other than that, I am running a full compliment of Trinisphere in the main deck just because it is so powerful. Sword of Fire and Ice has been relagated to a one of. However I am willing to consider switching the make up of the deck a little bit so that I am running 3 Trinisphere and 2 Sword's of Fire and Ice or 1 Sword and 1 Jitte, or something like that. But I want at least 3 Trinisphere main decked, as I think they eat the format.
I have to say that I don't like it that your main deck is lacking Jitte. I can't stress enough how many times that card has saved me in an aggro match up because of the life gain. Quick beats plus tomb damage is bad news for this deck if you can't get a lock piece down quick or first turn Slogger.
Leyline is an awful idea in Dragon Stompy, despite it being generally more powerful than Crypt. This is in large part because if you topdeck it at any point during a game, you just screwed yourself out of Hellbent for either the rest of the game or until you draw a Gathan Raiders.
Leyline just also adds to your general inconsistency. In a deck that really wants to win against ichorid by locking it out, leyline works well. It's also better than crypt in a deck that can reliably cast it, although that seems pretty obvious. All Dragon Stompy needs to do is stall out Ichorid for a few turns and crypt does exactly that. With those extra turns, racing dredge is not very hard. Even the threat of crypt forces them to play slow enough that racing them is not too hard.
No Excuses, Play Like a Champion
In my build, Street Wraith replaced Seething Song, which doesn't really help with mulligans either. Notice Taco wrote "consistency that Song can't provide".Street Wraith. Ugh. The LAST thing this deck needs is more mulligans!
Sometimes, Seething Song is great. Other times, I wished it were a creature or disruption or land instead. Right now, based on my testing, I feel the deck needs less mana acceleration and more other stuff, which is what Street provides.Dragon Stompy relies heavily on its incredibly explosive aggressive starts to win matches when its disruption pieces can't.
To me, Street Wraith increases the power of the deck by concentrating our best 56 cards.Dragon Stompy ... can't afford to pursue such consistency at the expense of power.
That doesn't mean you shouldn't run an inconsistent card. If you're afraid to run inconsistent decks, you shouldn't be picking up anything that isn't named Threshold, much less any Chalice Aggro variant.
Black Lotus, for example, decreases the consistency of a deck. It does so because it provides a one-shot boost to your mana at the expense of a card. It will not kill your opponent, and it will not assist you in doing so beyond those three mana. So if your hand were 1 Land, 1 Lotus, and a hand full of things that cost 2 mana, you'd have a pretty explosive turn one, but if that turn one were stopped, you'd be screwed if you didn't draw another land. Consequently, if you had two land and a hand full of things you could cast for 2 mana, your hand would be more consistent.
Yet, you'd run Black Lotus if Legacy rules allowed it. You'd be insane not to. To further expound on this point, imagine something existed that cost, was a Sorcery, and said "Flip a Coin. If you win the flip, you win the game." This is not a consistent card in the slightest, yet who on earth wouldn't run it? The power level if it succeeds is immense.
The point of this is that consistency does not equal power and should be weighed accordingly. Seething Song provides a level of power the deck doesn't have otherwise, from insane turn one Sloggers that singlehandedly roll Goblins, to turn two kills with Pit Dragons, to being able to drop a Chalice for 1 and a Threat in the same first turn, or whatever the case may be.
Street Wraith provides none of what you say.Sometimes, Seething Song is great. Other times, I wished it were a creature or disruption or land instead. Right now, based on my testing, I feel the deck needs less mana acceleration and more other stuff, which is what Street provides.
To me, Street Wraith increases the power of the deck by concentrating our best 56 cards.
First of all, Street Wraith is not a free card. It's a card that costs 2 life. Your life total is a resource, one that you are already pushing the limits of exploiting with Ancient Tomb, which can deal 8+ damage to you in a single game. Additionally, many of your games come down to damage races. You can't afford the 2 life.
Secondly, you don't get to pick what other card you're drawing into. If you need a land, it'll get you one about one out of three times. If you need a threat, ditto, about one out of three. If you need a disruption piece, a little less.
Third, you lose the raw power of Song.
Fourth, and most importantly, Street Wraith impairs your mulliganing decisions, because you can't know what card it will provide until after you've made your decision.
Careful manipulation of your mana sources will ensure you're rarely awash with them. Seething Song and SSG both imprint on Chrome Mox in a pinch, and any mana source pitches to flip Gathan Raiders. I'm inclined strongly to believe that any problems you may encounter with having too much mana is based heavily on poor play choices in this regard. I find the deck to actually be mana short far more often than mana heavy. There will of course be games where you just get flooded with bad topdecks, but that's the price you pay for playing Chalice Aggro.
Chalice Aggro is incredible raw power at the expense of consistency. If you're going to sabotage the power level more than you increase the consistency, you might as well pick up Threshold.
Your discussion about consistency vs power is interesting, but it wasn't my point. My point is that Seething Song and Street Wraith aren't in the deck to help with mulligan decisions. Neither card really helps accelerate you to 3 mana. (Obviously both can still serve a minor role i.e. Song can imprint onto Mox and Street can draw into something.) There is much discussion on the mulligan-hampering aspect of Street, yet Song hardly helps in that regard.That doesn't mean you shouldn't run an inconsistent card...
Street Wraith is a card whose merits are probabilistic. For example, if your hand doesn't need more acceleration, would you rather have another piece of acceleration or a random card? Sure, Street might draw you into more acceleration, but, chances are, the random card is better than Song.Street Wraith provides none of what you say ... you don't get to pick what other card you're drawing into ... you can't know what card it will provide until after you've made your decision.
...I'm inclined strongly to believe that any problems you may encounter with having too much mana is based heavily on poor play choices in this regard...
To me, the reason to play this deck does not lie in "consistency vs power". I can make the deck more consistent and still have a favorable matchup against Threshold.If you're going to sabotage the power level more than you increase the consistency, you might as well pick up Threshold.
Alright whats with this crap people are saying? Coming from someone who has played Dragon Stompy since Flash got banned, Thresh took over and MoTM was legal DON'T ever drop Seething Songs!!! Like Taco was saying, although Seething Song makes DS a little inconsistent the ridiculous power it gives the deck far outweighs it. Why would you ever want to drop the card that allows you to open the game up with a turn 1 opponent scoop?
Team Hammafist
okay thanks everyone I will switch to Crypt for now test it out and see how it does.
In my admittedly limited experience with the deck, seething song was actually underwhelming and I freuently boarded out one of them since I never wanted to see them in multiples. The one game I had two of them I dropped my hand turn 2 and then lost the game to a vindicate. While I hardly had the best threats to drop that turn (I dropped SSG, a morphed raiders, and a pithing needle on deed), I would've needed pit-dragon and morph to have a chance.
The power of this deck does not primarily lie in the threats but in the disruption pieces. While you may occasionally blow people out with pit-dragon or slogger, those games happen so infrequently that making deck building decisions in an attempt to maximize them will not yield the best results. More games are won by completely blowing your opponent out with some combination of trinispheres, chalices, and blood moon effects and attacking over four or so turns. As such, I feel seething song forces you into too many hands that simply plop down some stuff and asks your opponent, "Can you beat this?" These situations rarely work out well, especially in more powerful formats which contain much better defensive spells than closed formats like standard or block.
Saying this, I still feel Seething Song belongs in the deck because it aids in casting your larger spells, which is necessary sometimes to simply get a threat on the board. However, I truly feel that three is the correct number to play. Just because Chalice Aggro is inconsistent in general does not mean we should not aim to shore up this major weakness in the deck as best we can. If we didn't than there might as well be only 2 decks, the completely consistent but not as powerful (Threshold) versus the overly powerful but not consistent (Belcher I guess?).
No Excuses, Play Like a Champion
I see a startling lack of Rite of Flame in some of the deck lists. I've searched the thread and I didn't find any significant discussion of it. I simply wonder why it hasn'e been discused/ if it has, why is it not used? The explosive quality of Rite of Flame could quite easily lead into some potentially incredible plays without impacting the consistancy too much.
Team Battletoadz: Fuck the Meta-police?
If it's all in our heads, it's best that we don't loose them.
I think its primarily because of it being a one cc card for a usual gain of between 2 and 5 mana... when you think about it, if Trinisphere is in play... 5 mana for 3 cc is already achieved by Seething Song... however anything less than 5 mana for 3 cc, is really an underwhelming scenerio. Which I believe is probably why Rite of Flame is not run in this deck.
It doesn't play well with Chalice and doesn't proved too much of a boost. Simian Spirit Guide nets the same amount of mana, dodges Chalice, and can beat/block in a pinch. The deck doesn't need that many mana spells.
@raharu: Rite of Flame + Chalice = not a combo. And as Sanguine pointed out, Simian Spirit Guide nets you the same mana boost (Unless you have one in the yard), is uncounterable, and picks up equipment to beat face. Song is right in our curve and nets two mana instead of one, although Rite of Flame would help alleviate the amount of "Mountain, Go" plays we had to make. If the deck had another strong 2-drop besides Chalice (Turn one Jitte, while plausible, is not a power play) then Rite might be considered, but at the moment the deck lacks such a 2-drop.
@theross: What you say makes some sense. I'm not saying Seething Song should never be contemplated to be cut. I was merely making the point that consistency didn't equal power. As for 3 Seething Songs, I can see this. 11 Mountains / 3 Songs is a feasible concept (I assume this is what you're replacing the Song with? Or no?) However, I don't feel the same about hitting them in multiples. I don't always mind hitting them in multiples, as they imprint on Moxes, flip Raiders, pump Dragons and Sloggers, and sometimes I just flat out need seven mana to do something ridiculous. I tend to favor Jan's opinion in that Song is powerful.
Anyway, on another subject, after more and more testing, I'm coming to strongly believe that Trinisphere needs to move over to the sideboard. 20 threats has not been making the cut when I'm forced to occasionally pitch them or imprint them on Chrome Moxes for mana, and I'm losing far more games to Trinisphere than I'm winning with it. Also, Trinisphere's just giving purpose to all those nonbasic lands you happily turned into Mountains. Even against Threshold I find Trinisphere isn't wreaking as much havoc as Blood Moon and Chalice of the Void are.
I'm certain there are metagames where moving Trinisphere to the board would be a mistake, namely those inhabited by people named Bryant Cook. However, I feel that another threat would do more to pull its weight. At the moment I'm back to tinkering with Sulfur Elemental IRL, as I don't have my hands on a set of Maulers yet.
Really, I know that Chalice + Rite = fail, but Rite of Flame would increase the amount of opening plays where your deck simply gives you the god-hand and your deck goes BANG!!! Mountian-> RIte-> Rite is exactly as explosive as Seething Song, but without havind to pitch for Moxen... Worst comes to worst, it pitches to Raiders, Chrome Mox/ other discard outlets. Hmmm... I'm not so sure the deck as it stands could use it though... I'll keep it in mind.
EDIT: has anyone tried Mages' Contest for the TES/ Storm combo matchup? Just throwing it out there...
Team Battletoadz: Fuck the Meta-police?
If it's all in our heads, it's best that we don't loose them.
Against almost decks in Legacy, Chalice@1 is more favorable to come first rather thanland: + Mox + Seething Song = Something. .even Trinisphere will be chosen against some decks. .because something can simply tricked with some 1cc spells as StP or the others and become a reckless move. .
Because of that reason, playing rite of flame before Chalice @1 / Sphere is rare and make rite won't be worthed enough to come. .and don't forget, mountain + only 1 rite of flame on the 1st turn almost nothing. .
Reply to-EDIT : This deck has a super powerful matchup against TES with Chalice and Trinisphere so it don't need another board. .
n my baby says,"papa papa, u don't payat upkeep. ."
"Tidal forces of the blood moon wrench and buckle the land, drawing monoliths of stone and soil toward the flaming orb"
110% agree.Anyway, on another subject, after more and more testing, I'm coming to strongly believe that Trinisphere needs to move over to the sideboard. 20 threats has not been making the cut when I'm forced to occasionally pitch them or imprint them on Chrome Moxes for mana, and I'm losing far more games to Trinisphere than I'm winning with it. Also, Trinisphere's just giving purpose to all those nonbasic lands you happily turned into Mountains. Even against Threshold I find Trinisphere isn't wreaking as much havoc as Blood Moon and Chalice of the Void are.
I'll test with 2-3 Pyrokinesis to help Hellbent and Mox Chrome (and remove chumpblockers to win faster)
Taco, what do you think of Pyrokinesis? thanks.
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