[Discussion] Where should control go from here?

[Whit3 Ghost]

As I was talking to people throughout the Running GAGG, I noticed one general trend: disgruntled Landstill and Control players. With the previously cakewalk Threshold matchup gaining tools which greatly improve their control game in Stifle/Waste, Blood Moon and Counterbalance, in addition to a faster clock with Tarmogoyf, what does the control archetype need to do to remain a viable contender?

[URABAHN]

As I was talking to people throughout the Running GAGG, I noticed one general trend: disgruntled Landstill and Control players. With the previously cakewalk Threshold matchup gaining tools which greatly improve their control game in Stifle/Waste, Blood Moon and Counterbalance, in addition to a faster clock with Tarmogoyf, what does the control archetype need to do to remain a viable contender?

How funny, I was talking with Nantuko Shady and my mates about this. Shady nearly finished my sentence when I asked him about Landstill having trouble finishing off opponents. I went to time three times at Winter Wonderland and nearly went to time twice at the Running GAGG. Being more proactive might be the solution. How about playing more threats like Tarmogoyf and maybe Hoofprints of the Stag? Maybe it's better the cut weaker threats like Decree of Justice, Mishra's Factory, and Faerie Conclave. But if you're going to run fewer manlands, you're going to need to drop Hoofprints or 'goyf, then play Standstill. At that point, aren't you playing Fish? And if you're going to play Fish, why not just play Gro?

[clavio]

Mighty Quinn. It doesn't really care about nonbasic hate. Wing shards are very good against threshold. It can get a lot of "cheap" wins with scepter/chant game one.

[Zork]

I think the problem with playing control is that no set of answers can reliably lockdown multiple strategies while also winning the game. I think this is why decks that add aggro into the strategies of controlling the game tend to do better. Examples:

Bad + Aggro -> Good

Blue Control + Green Aggro -> Thresh
Stax + Red/Blue Aggro -> Stompy
Black Control + Green Aggro -> Eva Green

I can't think of any others.

[Whit3 Ghost]

I think multiple things need to be discussed here:

Win Conditions- Do you go for synergy in Manlands or raw power in Tarmogoyf?
Counter-base- Are you running Counterbalance/Top?
Draw Spells- Standstill, Meditate, or something completely different?
Manabase- Do you run 3-4 colors or go back to something more oldschool?
Answering Threshold- I think that this is the hallmark of the format's control decks, being able to beat the touted best deck in the format, something current variations of control have been unable to do. How do you win the matchup?

[Deep6er]

I think control should just evolve to deal with the changing metagame. Find a way to deal with Threshold and Dragon Stompy (not necessarily the best deck, but more along the lines of Blood Moon + Chalice type decks) and you've found the metagame winner. That means cutting down on the "cool" effects for the strong and consistently powerful effects. I think it means shoring up manabases to how it used to work when Goblins (and thus Wasteland + Port) were EVERYWHERE. It'll take some concentration, time, and effort, but it can be done.

[Bardo]

Answering Threshold- I think that this is the hallmark of the format's control decks, being able to beat the touted best deck in the format, something current variations of control have been unable to do. How do you win the matchup?

I am by no means an authority on every possible configuration of Landstill, but if I know anything, it's that my version of the deck kicks the steaming piss out of Threshold. A pity, really, since I love playing Thresh.

"Mostly Monoblue Control"
by Bardo

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
2 Spell Snare

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Vedalken Shackles

4 Tarmogoyf

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Island
1 Swamp
1 Academy Ruins

Sideboard
4 Engineered Plague
4 Hydroblast
3 Dark Confidant
2 Krosan Grip
2 Extirpate

It's almost hard to lose.

CounterTop, Tarmogoyf, Deed/EE/Shackles, and Eternal staples such as Brainstorm and Force make for a monster deck.

I think it means shoring up manabases to how it used to work when Goblins (and thus Wasteland + Port) were EVERYWHERE. It'll take some concentration, time, and effort, but it can be done.

I agree, which is why I've moved away from the more versatile 4c versions of the deck for the time being, with the rising use of Blood Moon effects around.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I was going to write a whole thing about this, but I'm too lazy so I'll just spew out my ideas.

Due the the fact that decks are so varied in Legacy, straight control decks need utility cards that fit multiple roles. Vedalken Shackles is removal that doubles as a reusable win condition. Jace is a source of card advantage that win be a win condition. Wasteland is disruption and mana.

Following this logic, Mishra's Factory is one of the best cards for a control deck. It's mana that doesn't come into play tapped, a win condition, and an emergency blocker. Crucible of Worlds [which makes land based utility more powerful and inevitable] and Barbarian Ring is removal, a win condition, and mana.

Pointing out cards with multiple uses is the easy part. Putting them all together in to something good is the hard part. Of the cards I just listed, you need a blue red mana base with a good amount of Islands and Wasteland and Mishra's Factory. Assuming twenty four lands, two of which are Barbarian Rings, three of which are Wastelands, and four of which are Factories, you have thirteen other lands that need to be Islands to support Shackles, and red to support Rings. This is what a list could look like so far;

24 Land
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
2 Barbarian Ring
4 Volcanic Islands
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
5 Islands

12 Spells
3 Jace
3 Vedalken Shackles
3 Crucible of Worlds

That leaves you with fourteen other slots for sweepers, counterspells, burn, or whatever is needed to control.


This post was a lot more "stream of consciousness" then I intended, but I wanted to get the concept out before I forgot it.

[Deep6er]

I am by no means an authority on every possible configuration of Landstill, but if I know anything, it's that my version of the deck kicks the piss out Threshold. A pity, really, since I love playing Thresh.

"Mostly Monoblue Control"

It's almost hard to lose.

CounterTop, Tarmogoyf, Deed/EE/Shackles, and Eternal staples such as Brainstorm and Force make for a monster deck.

Out of curiosity, did you know that you're list is REMARKABLY similar to the one that I played at the Mana Leak Open? Astounding. Y'know, just saying. :)

Anyway, those are most of the cards that I advocate control running nowadays in order to combat the rise of anti-control measures being run. So... yeah. Seriously though, like REALLY SIMILAR. :)

[Pinder]

All this talk of Blood Moon, and the meteoric rise in popularity of it and its resident Magus got me thinking. What if control decks started splashing red? I mean, in 4c Landstill builds the only color they don't run is red. Adding red (some sort of URx control or something) can make it so you can still play your cards (some of them, at least) through a Blood Moon or Magus thereof. It gives you Bolt or whatnot to get rid of the Magus, but unfortunately red has absolutely no way I can find of removing Enchantments (unless they're blue).

Just a though, I'm not sure if it could work or not.

[Bardo]

Due the the fact that decks are so varied in Legacy, straight control decks need utility cards that fit multiple roles. Vedalken Shackles is removal that doubles as a reusable win condition. Jace is a source of card advantage that win be a win condition. Wasteland is disruption and mana.

I may be biased, but I completely agree: strategic hybridization and versatile cards that manage the game state and generate card advantage at the same time are the way to go.

Out of curiosity, did you know that you're list is REMARKABLY similar to the one that I played at the Mana Leak Open? Astounding. Y'know, just saying. :)

Nope, MMUC is an extreme evolution of my old U/b/g Tog decks from days of old, with a recent adoption of some of Chapin's ideas in 1.x.

Any similarity would be good minds thinking alike. :)

All this talk of Blood Moon, and the meteoric rise in popularity of it and its resident Magus got me thinking. What if control decks started splashing red?

I'm not too excited to return to 2004. I'd rather just rework my mana.

[Whit3 Ghost]

All this talk of Blood Moon, and the meteoric rise in popularity of it and its resident Magus got me thinking. What if control decks started splashing red? I mean, in 4c Landstill builds the only color they don't run is red. Adding red (some sort of URx control or something) can make it so you can still play your cards (some of them, at least) through a Blood Moon or Magus thereof. It gives you Bolt or whatnot to get rid of the Magus, but unfortunately red has absolutely no way I can find of removing Enchantments (unless they're blue).

Just a though, I'm not sure if it could work or not.

I don't think so, as Red doesn't have many tools in matchups outside of Goblins. I guess you could run some sort Quake effect if your meta has a lot of Goblins/Chalice Agro and a smattering of Thresh, but if it's mostly Canadian and Blood Moon Thresh, then Red doesn't really offer anything overwhelmingly positive in that matchup. Plus, Magus isn't really Landstill's issue, it's the Magi's legless brother which can really give the deck fits.

EDIT- I also think that we might see an increase in two color control, with maybe a small splash soley for EE at 3 and possibly opposite Blasts or Kgrip. Also, Wasteland just got a lot worse against Threshold.

[AnwarA101]

I'm not suprised to see a thread like this started. Control decks have been less successful than the other archetypes in Legacy since its inception. I compiled my thoughts about Legacy control in an article that was published by StarCityGames, The Perils of Playing Control. I only point this out to show that its very relevant to the problems control is having namely the wrong answers and lack of an efficient win condition. When you play control in Legacy you invariably get into a position where either you have the wrong answers or you just don't win the game fast enough when you do have relevant answers. These problems have to be solved before control can really be a solid choice.

[raharu]

A decline in 4c control is inevatable. Really, a core blue deck with splashes of black and white (so you can run just basics) and B2B would be fairly powerful in the current metagame. Restructuring the manabase is mandatory at this point. I believe that Counterbalance + Top is going to be a majior piece in the new generation of control decks, and because of this the curve is going to narrow out/ compress, most likely topping out at 3 for Meditate. The win conditions will have to be rethought, and the control "Idealogy" will have to be rethougt as well. With decks becoming faster and faster, the "control for x turns, slowly eat life total" is starting to fade out (as we have seen) because it's not working as well anymore. Control can't wait until the opponent runs out of gas and then use superior late-game resources to win. I'm pondering if the idea should now be to "assist" the opponent in fizzling faster, possible speeding up the control deck, not by agression, but by facilitating the deck's natural habitat (them with nothing, you with heaping mounds of resources).

Maybe I'm totaly wrong, maybe I'm a idiot savant. Thoughts?

[URABAHN]

Win Conditions- Do you go for synergy in Manlands or raw power in Tarmogoyf?

I think 'goyf is a must-have. Goyf absolutely, positively needs to be answered in a timely fashion. Run it out there, force your opponent to Wrath, Swords, or whatever. 1 for 1 means it's done it's job. Nantuko Monastery is also a legitimate threat. Run both!

Counter-base- Are you running Counterbalance/Top?

I think Counterbalance/Top is a must-have. At least run it in the sideboard. It's a very good and very broad answer to combo.

Draw Spells- Standstill, Meditate, or something completely different?

Standstill is the best draw spell in the game, but I don't think playing it and sitting back on a Mishra's Factory or Decree of Justice is the way to go.

Manabase- Do you run 3-4 colors or go back to something more oldschool?

As UGR Moonthresh proves, you can have your cake and eat it too. You can run a 3-4 color deck, just make sure you're not going to scoop to Blood Moon.

Answering Threshold- I think that this is the hallmark of the format's control decks, being able to beat the touted best deck in the format, something current variations of control have been unable to do. How do you win the matchup?

I don't think beating Thresh is the problem, dedicated control is still favored against Thresh. The problem is all the other decks in the format seem to have improved.

[Nightmare]

I'm just gonna run this out there - URABAHN, you're describing the exact series of thoughts and considerations we made when we developed TEC. I get bagged by you guys about it, but it seems as the resident 4c Landstill player of NoVa, you may come around. Test it out.

I think the reason Blood Moon was such an issue for me this weekend wasn't that I couldn't handle it, it was more that I wasn't prepared for it. I think I am now.

[Finn]

The manabases of decks have been running rampant since the increased popularity of Deed began. Control naturally gets hit the hardest here, wanting their counterspells and board sweepers too. People have been running tighter and tighter mana as more colors have been involved. The popularity of Moons (and Wasteland) makes perfect sense and will continue to harm anyone who thinks he can manage without giving those cards enough respect. When the respect arrives, the pendulum will swing the other way for a while and the cycle will continue. Until then, you have The Disk.

Control is hard as hell in this diverse environment. The recent successes were a mirage brought on by moving the inherent weakness from the top (firepower) to the bottom (manabase). Now that the meta has caught up, you can continue to expect this natural decline since losing a color weakens your game.

Oh, and all those control decks are essentially the same deck. You will never find the perfect 60 cards. To Jace or not to Jace. How many Vedalken Shackles...etc. MMUC, whatever? It's Landstill. EPIC Control? It's Landstill.

[Nightmare]

Oh, and all those control decks are essentially the same deck. You will never find the perfect 60 cards. To Jace or not to Jace. How many Vedalken Shackles...etc. MMUC, whatever? It's Landstill. EPIC Control? It's Landstill.

You're ill-informed. TEC doesn't run any more of the cards that Landstill runs than Threshold does. In fact, it runs exactly 8. (4 Force, 4 Swords). How can you even begin to pretend that the two are even remotely the same?

Edit - Yeah, maybe that came off a little harsh. Still, the two decks are similar in overall strategy, and nothing alike when it comes to game play or specific action plans. You're taking some liberties with your theory that aren't yours to take.

[zulander]

I get bagged by you guys about it, but it seems as the resident 4c Landstill player of NoVa, you may come around.

Lol so true. He and I were actually discussing TEC over lunch today but he's in love with the card standstill.

[Finn]

Adam, it is honestly more my perception from facing off against all the same cards in a lot of decks all going by different names and wondering why folks bothered. But look at this:

Brainstorm
Force of Will
Wrath of God
Swords to Plowshares
Engineered Explosives

...are all taken from your opening post on Landstill on this site

Vedalken Shackles
Counterbalance
Sensei's Divining Top
Hoofprints of the Stag
[your entire sideboard]

...are all cards I have seen either in posts on this site or in play across from me in Landstill matchups. It's all variations of the same theme. I can't even remember which is which anymore. Mucho-Color control is so mercilessly rampant right now I can't tell them apart. I don't mean this as a belittlement to your deck. I can see the work you did. I can see that you strove to be different from Landstill. You aren't attacking with lands, and you are not using the namesake card, but it's hard to avoid being control in blue and not fall within the bounds of Landstill from a strategic point of view in the eyes of the opponent. It can be made into anything.

The bottom line is that facing different versions of Landstill is a wider range than the difference between Landstill and any other blue-centered control deck in the format.