[Deck] Skybus (UWB Moat Control)

[Maveric78f]

Cunning Wish has been working pretty damn well. I'm still looking for a win con to put in the board as I have managed to deck myself a few times. Does anyone have ANY ideas???

The best instant win con is probably enlightened tutor.

[PhanTom_lt]

Interesting deck. However, it looks a lot like the Epic Control. Have you tried Jace?

[Phantom]

The best instant win con is probably enlightened tutor.

Good point.

Interesting deck. However, it looks a lot like the Epic Control. Have you tried Jace?

It's a tad different since I can't protect Jace at all without Moat out. I don't run Goyf or Shackles or Ruins/Explosives. If it were a Wish target, I'd run it in a heartbeat.

[Media314r8]

I understand the whole 'you don't want to make their removal relevant', but would a pair of Nullstone gargoyles work well in here? (chanting grips most often) You could actualy let all their dudes resolve provided you had this guy and a moat in hand. (assuming your opponent didn't sack one of their three grips into hand in the first five turns, not to mention already burn it on a hoofprints) The guy looks terrible on paper, but he is cheaper than an morphed exalted, and protects all of your wincons.

[Phantom]

I understand the whole 'you don't want to make their removal relevant', but would a pair of Nullstone gargoyles work well in here? (chanting grips most often) You could actualy let all their dudes resolve provided you had this guy and a moat in hand. (assuming your opponent didn't sack one of their three grips into hand in the first five turns, not to mention already burn it on a hoofprints) The guy looks terrible on paper, but he is cheaper than an morphed exalted, and protects all of your wincons.

That's not a terrible idea actually. I have to figure out if they should go mainboard or side. I just wish the guy was a 3/4. I also will probably squeeze in a Declaration of Naught that I can tutor up with E Tutor out of the board. Thanks for the tip, and I'll let you know how it works out.

[raharu]

Voidstone Gargoyle? I would run a split between it and Meddling Mage simply because Mage is faster but Gargoyle is a win-con that protects your other win-cons. Possible a 3/2 mage/ gargoyle split? It seems heavy, but the Mages or the Gargoyles would probable be in the board.

[Phantom]

Voidstone Gargoyle? I would run a split between it and Meddling Mage simply because Mage is faster but Gargoyle is a win-con that protects your other win-cons. Possible a 3/2 mage/ gargoyle split? It seems heavy, but the Mages or the Gargoyles would probable be in the board.

Yeah, that's what worries me. They both do a specific job and are kinda crappy at the other one. Mage helps fight combo, but is terrible at beatdown or stopping something that's already down. Gargoyle is the exact opposite where he is bad against combo (too slow) but solid in those other areas. I'm hoping that a tutorable Declaration of Naught will help me cut down on these slots a bit.

[Illissius]

Declaration of Nought isn't going to help you against Krosan Grip.

[Phantom]

Declaration of Nought isn't going to help you against Krosan Grip.

You're right of course. Thanks for the heads up. I think I'll still run it though as Deed and Survival prevention or maybe to keep flyers off the board.

[raharu]

Would a wish-able sweeper for flying creatures be feaseable?

[LandDestroyer]

So, basically you're trying to recreate the deck I created, Roman Candle. I never posted it, but I originally played it to an 8-2 finish at 2006 Gencon (round 8 was against roland chang, if he had taken an ID i would have top 8'd but his tiebreakers were bad so we played and i lost 2-1). It was black/white/green/red at the time with moat and bridge, but when they created tin-street, I changed it to blue/white/red with moat, etc. Last time I played it was before they errated flash. I top 8'd a gpt, but lost to jason mays playing threshold of course (in chicago). I stopped playing it b/c of flash, and won a grinder before gp columbus playing fish. I have since quit playing b/c of feeling like the dci said screw legacy when they did that, but a friend asked me if I still had a copy of my deck list since somebody appeared to be trying to recreate it. I am at work however. emidln. seraphim3577, maybe tash and some others would remember it...plus my opponents at gencon and random GPTs. It was very good. At gencon 2006 it was 80/20 vs the top 3 decks, goblins, threshold, and solidarity.

[Media314r8]

So, basically you're trying to recreate the deck I created, Roman Candle. I never posted it, but I originally played it to an 8-2 finish at 2006 Gencon (round 8 was against roland chang, if he had taken an ID i would have top 8'd but his tiebreakers were bad so we played and i lost 2-1). It was black/white/green/red at the time with moat and bridge, but when they created tin-street, I changed it to blue/white/red with moat, etc. Last time I played it was before they errated flash. I top 8'd a gpt, but lost to jason mays playing threshold of course (in chicago). I stopped playing it b/c of flash, and won a grinder before gp columbus playing fish. I have since quit playing b/c of feeling like the dci said screw legacy when they did that, but a friend asked me if I still had a copy of my deck list since somebody appeared to be trying to recreate it. I am at work however. emidln. seraphim3577, maybe tash and some others would remember it...plus my opponents at gencon and random GPTs. It was very good. At gencon 2006 it was 80/20 vs the top 3 decks, goblins, threshold, and solidarity.

tldr; everyone has thought of every legacy deck at some point, killjoy, ect ect

[Phantom]

Would a wish-able sweeper for flying creatures be feaseable?

Did you have one in mind? I'm not really sure I would ever need one. Wrath serves the same purpose, except it's still good when I don't have Moat down.

[Mental]

This deck is format eating. Anyways, why no CBTOP in your list, Phantom? I've been running:

4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Strand
4 Flooded Delta
3 Island
2 Swamp
2 Plains

2 Chrome Mox
1 Eternal Dragon

4 Moat
3 Counterbalance

4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Ponder

3 Cunning Wish
2 Enlightened Tutor

4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God

2 Bitterblossom
1 Hoofprints of the Stag

Sideboard:
4 Meddling Mage
2 Engineered Plague
2 Extirpate
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Meditate
1 Hydroblast
1 Pulse of the Field
1 Trickbind
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Return to Dust

If only I had 4 moats...Anyways. Enlightened Tutor + Counterbalance seems strong. This deck can counter anything from CC 0-4 with Balance and Tutor, or Balance and Cunning Wish. I'm not sure about Eternal Dragon over Hoofprints #2, but it does seem to be a good early game mana fixer. Meddling Mage on Krosan Grip is strong.

Cunning Wish is retarded.

[Phantom]

This deck is format eating. Anyways, why no CBTOP in your list, Phantom?

Thanks for the list. The deck is indeed, pretty nuts. I guess my thought process on CounterTop went as follows:

"All of their ground creatures are useless. All of their creature removal is almost useless. How many spells am I going to need to counter a game? Not that many. So I'd rather have a solid counter in that spot than an iffy but more powerful counter engine."

Now whether or not that is true remains to be seen. it would give me another way to shut down Grip, and seeing as that is often a decks only out against us, that's nothing to sneeze at. I am worried about dropping Wrath all together, as it's such a nice safety valve.

If you're going to run E tutor, might I suggest Oblivion ring as a one of.

[diffy]

Why no CBTOP in your list, Phantom?

I don't feel comfortable running CBalance+Top in any non-aggro-control shell as your chances of it being a dead card are pretty high due to you not ever hitting blindly and due to you having a moderate chance of not finding something suitable even with SDT due to your manabase being all over the place and due to you running quite a high amount of lands.

4 Polluted Strand
4 Flooded Delta
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
3 Island
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Chrome Mox
1 Eternal Dragon

2 basic Swamps seems really excessive here. Also with Eternal Dragon in the deck, a 1off Scrubland has proven to be really worth it.
Also I don't see the point in playing Chrome Mox. The speed boost it provides doesn't compensate the CDA (you have way to little CA for a control deck anyways) it creates.

4 Moat

As multiple Moats are dead weight, I would like to suggest a split between Moat and Humility here. Humility is just too strong a card in any control shell and is a hard lock with Moat. (also note the incredible synergy with Bitterblossom and Pulse of the Fields)

4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Ponder
3 Cunning Wish
2 Enlightened Tutor

Even with Counterbalance being out of the deck, a couple of Sensei's Divining Tops could still be worth it as they provide some excellent card quality combined with your 8 fetchies and are pretty synergetic with Hoofprints of the Stag.
I'm not sure about Ponder.

4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
2 Bitterblossom
1 Hoofprints of the Stag

This looks about fine but I do support those who say that WoG is probably unnecessary due to you having Moat (and to a lesser extent Humility). You could probably cut them for some more versatile early game plays like Engineered Explosive.
With Engineered Explosives in the deck, you could then add a singleton Academy Ruins (prevents decking!).

Sideboard:
4 Meddling Mage
2 Engineered Plague
2 Extirpate
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Meditate
1 Hydroblast
1 Pulse of the Field
1 Trickbind
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Return to Dust

This looks a little unfocused. You really don't need Trickbind (Wish-> Trickbind comes online at the earliest t4 by which combo should long since have won or is in a pretty bad position anyways.
Also, I don't think that you need a draw spell in the wishboard as getting a solution to an imeadiate problem or a preventive measure (Enlightened Tutor) is probably always superior to a blind draw4.

Suggested Changes:

Sideboard:
-1 Trickbind
-1 Meditate
+1 Engineered Plague
+1 Extirpate

Mainboard:
-2 Swamp
-2 Chrome Mox
+1 Academy Ruins
+1 Scrubland

-1 Moat
+1 Humility

-1 Sensei's Divining Top
-3 Counterbalance
+4 Counterspell

-1 Wrath of God
+2 Engineered Explosives
+1 Oblivion Ring

Now what disturbs me most with this version is that it runs absolutely no means to create card advantage (other than the virtual CA provided by Moat&Humility).

That list on the first page looks nice though except for that I'd change some cards to more lands (20 is just way to little for a control deck) and the Stifle/Spell Snare slots to Cunning Wish.
You could then also switch some WoGs to Enlightened Tutors (very flexible here and fullfill a similar job to WoG stopping creatures by fetching Moat).

This is what I'm going to give a run in the next cupple of days:

/// Maindeck (60 cards):
// Lands
   1 Academy Ruins
   4 Flooded Strand
   4 Polluted Delta
   4 Tundra
   4 Underground Sea
   1 Scrubland
   2 Plains
   3 Island

// Winconditions
   1 Eternal Dragon
   2 Hoofprints of the Stag
   2 Bitterblossom

// Permission
   4 Counterspell
   4 Force of Will

// Card Advantage & Tutoring
   4 Brainstorm
   2 Ponder
   2 Sensei's Divining Top

   2 Enlightened Tutor
   3 Cunning Wish

// Removal
   3 Moat
   1 Humility
   2 Engineered Explosives
   4 Swords to Plowshares
   1 Oblivion Ring

///Sideboard:
   4 Meddling Mage
   3 Engineered Plague
   1 Hydroblast
   3 Extirpate
   1 Slaughter Pact
   1 Return to Dust
   1 Pulse of the Fields
   1 Enlightened Tutor

I think that Bitterblossoms is going to be totally underpowered just providing a chump blocker a turn for a life and I am already contemplating replacing them with a Haunting Echoes and the third Hoofprints.

Again no card draw seems a little shaky for a control deck but I don't know... maybe I am surprised positively.

[Mister Agent]

Actually Clemens is right this deck does need more card draw. Having utility cantrips won't always get it done for a control deck you need good hard draw like fact or fictions. Other then that phantom I really like the list.

[Phantom]

Thanks for all the good feedback. A quick word about win cons: Hoofprints and Bitterblossom have both been solid. Neither has really outshined the other, as both have flourished in seperate situations. I still have to run a single Echoes, which I hate. I wish I could put this damn thing in the wish board. it is just a necessary evil against decks that run enough removal to stop our flyers.

I don't feel comfortable running CBalance+Top in any non-aggro-control shell as your chances of it being a dead card are pretty high due to you not ever hitting blindly and due to you having a moderate chance of not finding something suitable even with SDT due to your manabase being all over the place and due to you running quite a high amount of lands.

Agreed, but some control decks have dabbled with some success (TEC and some still builds) so i'll keep my mind open.

As multiple Moats are dead weight, I would like to suggest a split between Moat and Humility here. Humility is just too strong a card in any control shell and is a hard lock with Moat. (also note the incredible synergy with Bitterblossom and Pulse of the Fields)

One, I couldn't disagree more that multiple Moats are dead. I would much rather see three than 0 as they are so often game over, and EVERY deck is packing removal for them somewhere. laying a second moat is one of the great ways to prevent Grip from screwing you over. And if you don't want more than one, use the eight cantrips to bury the extras. Run 4 Moat. Trust me.

Second, I really don't like the idea of Humility. It cuts us off from our own win cons (as we run no Conclaves) and basically just lets us win through decking them one card at a time. this is a terrible idea in tournament play as it allows the opponent to stall out a draw. I don't mind winning by decking (usually through Echoes) but I'm not about to make it a strategy. The only deck I can think of off the top of my head where I'd rather play Humility and a Moat over two Moats is Faerie Stompy. Other decks just don't run enough flyers to scare me with a moat down. Even decks running Hoofprints haven't been a problem between Vindicate, counters, and Wish -> answer.

This looks a little unfocused. You really don't need Trickbind (Wish-> Trickbind comes online at the earliest t4 by which combo should long since have won or is in a pretty bad position anyways.
Also, I don't think that you need a draw spell in the wishboard as getting a solution to an imeadiate problem or a preventive measure (Enlightened Tutor) is probably always superior to a blind draw4.

I run Trickbind not to stop combo (although you can slow combo to the point where this is key, ESPECIALLY post board) but to stop Deed, which is huge and everywhere. All the other uses for it are just butter.

The draw spot is a tough call and one I'm still debating about. I haven't tested the board yet with an E tutor so I'll leave Meditate in and see if I ever go get it.


@ Wrath: It's possible that I'm wrong in running this, but here's my reasoning so far. It stalls for Moat, let's us win if they counter, discard, or otherwise don't let our Moat stay down, and acts as backup removal for troublesome flyers should the need arise. What i really like is that decks get desperate to win early against us since they know Moat is such a bitch to win through so they will drop multiple beaters and walk into a devestating Wrath.


@ Vindicate: I can't believe not everyone is running this. It has been SO key. There are a few cards that are troublesome to us and this answers almost all of them. Also, its so, so great with a wishable extirpate in the board. This is an underrated way to deal with grip. Vindicate Tropical island -> Extirpate Tropical Island. Good times. I think a 3/1 split between Vindicate and oRing sounds good.

@ Academy Ruins: I like this card, but as an untutorable one-of with only 2 explosives it might not be worth it. I might be wrong though, so let me know.

@ Card Draw: I'm not sure the deck needs it mainboard since Moat and our Win cons make so much of the opposing deck useless, but if you want to try Compulsive Research or the artifact instant one (brainfart) with a tweaked base feel free. You would have to up the land count though. Good synergy with Hoofprints.

[Illissius]

If the goal is stopping Grips, you can also use something like Cranial Extraction or Lobotomy, not just Mage and friends.

[diffy]

One, I couldn't disagree more that multiple Moats are dead. I would much rather see three than 0 as they are so often game over, and EVERY deck is packing removal for them somewhere. laying a second moat is one of the great ways to prevent Grip from screwing you over. And if you don't want more than one, use the eight cantrips to bury the extras. Run 4 Moat. Trust me.

Yeah, I was probably wrong on that one. Note to myself: this is not Landstill!

I run Trickbind not to stop combo (although you can slow combo to the point where this is key, ESPECIALLY post board) but to stop Deed, which is huge and everywhere. All the other uses for it are just butter.

I'm afraid of this move also being too slow (or somewhat redundant because you can Return to Dust a Deed too if need arises) but I'll give it a shot.

@ Academy Ruins: I like this card, but as an untutorable one-of with only 2 explosives it might not be worth it. I might be wrong though, so let me know.

It really is worth it, especially since your manabase is stable enough to support the one colorless land easily: the occasions in which you have both parts of the 'combo', you just win. Also it helps you to maintain an edge in the lategame should you ever run out of normal removal.

Changes:

-1 Island
-1 Underground Sea
+1 Ponder

+1 Haunting Echoes
+1 Jace Belaren (test slot)

-1 Sensei's Divining Top
-2 Enlightened Tutor
-1 Oblivion Ring
+3 Vindicate

-1 Humility
+1 Moat

The reasoning behind Jace is that he too is a way to stall for Moat (cantrip + fog) and a strong card advantage engine if your opponent choses to ignore it. You also do have some sorts of removal (your own dudes [Bitterblossom, Hoofprints of the Stag], Swords to Plowshares, Engineered Explosives, Vindicate) to protect it sans Moat if need arises. I like how he acts as a wincondition and card draw engine on paper, maybe I'll be wrong on this one though.