I think arguing about specific cards are almost pointless in this thread, as the card in question may be amazing in one variant and horrible in another.
The specific card that seems to be mainly in question now is Tolaria West
http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/Card...spx?&id=136047
The card is not for all decks, in fact I only think that landstill could ever consider its' inclusion in legacy. However, if you find the time to actually play Der's build, his Uwb landstill, you will find that it can be golden, and the deck itself is more of a board control strategy aanyways...
My honest opinion is that it is the best build, but I have played the other variants, and do see their merits/strong points.
Just test his deck as a whole, I doubt you will be disappointed, and if you say you are chances are you are lying or haven't tested it...
Sorry to be so blunt about the subject, but I have consistently done well with this deck every time I have played it, and Der and his team have done very well for a very long time with the deck over there in Germany.
The deck, unlike other versions of landstill, has a way to actually end the game before it is over... sure pernicious deed can sweep the board, sure they are just going to play a ringleader the next turn and start swarming you again, or just play another tarmogoyf.
Sweepers are good, but humility is better. Humility crushes almost every deck in this format currently: thresh, goblins, ichorid, breakfast, survival, fish... anything that wins through the attack phase.
Der's build also has access to extirpate G1, which is huge, and I don't think anyone is willing to see how huge it really is. You can beat ichorid and loam G1!!!!! No other LS deck can boast that, ichorid rapes other landstill decks, rapes them silly (at least preboard), but clemen's build has tooo much creature control and extirpate...
Extirpate also turns loam into a very winnable MU, I don't think any other landstill deck has ever posted good results against loam, ever. If they did, they were lying.
I play landstill exclusively, the only other decks I own are thresh and dreaded fish (rest of the other cards are within the team)... I have been playing landstill since forever, ever since my teammate convinced me to play Uwr back in the day, I have loved the archtype.
I played against der's list with wastelands, and even though it wasnt der himself piloting the list I fealt the opponent had fantastic understanding of the deck and played it to the fullest extent. That said der's list I fealt had less board control then you say it does freak. I was never scared in any of the games we had because he couldn't ever put the same kind of pressure needed to win games in the mirror. Now granted I did land standstills more often and that tends to win games, but I also broke his by casting mine giving him three cards and giving me board advantage. Thats how unafraid I was in this matchup. I think the mirror does favor my list because I simply have better inevitability then he does. Sure he runs one more wish then I do, but he also runs one more humility, which is almost completely dead in this matchup besides for eternal dragon which I believe we both run.
That said I would take the four color list anywhere, simply because of the toolbox. As a player I recognize my strength is a toolbox deck like four color that also has the ability to take care of things without the wishes. Example : deed. Wrath to me along with humility is just alittle overkill on double white 4 drops in the deck. Along with running fact or fiction it just makes me go ew.
But if we are going to talk about raw power of the two decks lets compare the ability to end games as well, and I think the 3 c has a bit more of an advantage to end games quickly with no problems. Where as 4c can take multiple turns to get into gear even after its stopped all tempo from the opponents side. Thats not a big deal to me and I noticed also how powerfull life from the loam is and I think the 1-1 split is the perfect way to go. Even if it is alittle eratic its still amazing, and if you've ever had crucible in play and dredged with it, youll see what I mean. Its amazin~. I think just general cc, the 4c version is overall cheaper. It may be more color intensive but you don't have NEARLY as many 4 drop spells. Which to me in a tempo war against thresh which is something that ultimately ends the game is not in ders favor. How does he resolve a spell when his 3cc spell is wish and noones going to stop that at eot. Theyll just counter wrath and humility because hes sinking all his resources into those on t4.
Your deck was based off of Der's list... but anyways, I do not understand how you can state that you end the game any better, as you run the same wincons...
Anyways, when it comes to mirror MUs, the deck does have a bad mirror against Ugwb, as wrath is dead in this MU, as well as humility...
The deck does however play better under standstill, and can sometimes win on this alone...
Some people may be asking themselves how this can be, but the deck can cycle decree underneith standstill EOT under standstill, and can tutor for additional factories/for a waste in a pinch under standstill... you can also win the crucible war with your ruins, as they will usually counter crucible... wish into extirpate is the key play here, as it allows you to strip your opponent of the valuable spells and give you the advantage.
If you do not cast humility (I can see no reason you would, unless they play goyf), you can cast dragon, who is especially deadly if you extirpate swords... I have won many games on this alone... I am not comparing mossovio's list anymore, his is the same deck with the additive of green for deed over wrath.
Against the more widely played 4c builds (which I like to call the American versions - see Taco's list as a refference), you do actually have quite a good matchup, based soley on Decree of Justice and Eternal Dragon. Also you have Academy Ruins to win the CoW war which is huge.Originally Posted by thefreakaccident
The problem here is that you have dead cards (WoG, Humility) but this is really outweighted by the fact that you have flexibilty in Cunning Wish and those lategame cards.
Against the 4c Humility/Cunning Landstill, you obviously have a worse matchup because its the same list -WoG (dead in this matchup) +Deed (quite good in this matchup) - you then really have to play tight / know the matchup and have the supperior draw (as in most ~71 cards mirrors).
The thing you have to ask yourself really is: is the Landstill-mirror that a concern that you're willing to play a build that is, at least in my oppinion, generally worse? Also, why would you rather want to play Landstill than a Landstill killer if your meta is flooded in Landstill?
His list is basically a rip of Marius's list (see my last post) eshewing the 2 Stifles for a 2 Spell Snares (-1 Pernicious Deed -1 Tolaria West if you take my list as refference).
Ok, first up I would like to announce to our community that "The proffesors" will be hosting an interview on youtube that they had with me earlier this week. The interview was mostly to drop Legacy as a phenominal format and try to get people to understand that what you do put into legacy is 90% of the time a solid investment choice. I would really appreciate it if you showed him some love and checked out his site, maybe even create an account and post a comment or subscribe. Its not much but atleast its a start, and even though he's young it may attract some younger players who watch his show to get into the format. Worst comes to worst your now getting beat up by a 12 year old with a tarmogoyf in legacy instead of some 30 year old living with his mom lmao!!!
So to reply to agent funk and to der my list isn't Alot like der's. Its got alot of similarities but that pretty much is it.
This is my current list:
As some of the sideboard is messed up I will give you all that is for certain. Yes I know some of the sideboard is missing and it's because I chose not to put it all down because it's a mix of Extirpate, hydroblast, and meddling mage.
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [UNH] Plains
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Tundra
2 [B] Underground Sea
2 [B] Tropical Island
1 [B] Scrubland
1 [B] Savannah
1 [UNH] Island
1 [TE] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon
// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [IA] Brainstorm
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [IA] Counterspell
2 [TE] Humility
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [FD] Crucible of worlds
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
2 [SC] Stifle
1 [Dis] Life from the loam
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [IN] Dismantling Blow
SB: 1 [IN] Fact or Fiction
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
-hydroblast not sure yet looking like 2-3
-Extirpate 3-4
- meddling mage wouldnt run any less then 3
Der's and my list have many differences, and I think that when it comes down to it me having deed avalible is EVERYTHING in this matchup. I can lay it at will it stops his deeds and Im really not scared of any threats he plays under it. Like most landstill mirrors this one durives on who gets the best 7 and it takes them all the way. I feel like my version has a better opening 7 then his will. It's just an opinion and also I run 2 decree as well. So saying he is better under still is wrong. It's almost dead even.
If you want to search for the interview go to youtube.com/proffesors
Hmm, i think you tried to play to much ideas in this list.
Green only for 3x Deed and a single LftL, not even one green SB card.
But not enough Deed needs Black/Green and Humility double White. So your mass removal is hard to play sometimes.
And thats another Problem 1xisland/1xplains, people dont play Bloodmoon/Magus / choke /BtB or stuff like these in your Meta?
But otherwise a great deck in the right meta. ;>
[Snip. Edited out above. - Bardo]
As for chaos. I wasn't asking for your advice I was showing agent funk and a couple others that there were some pretty big differences in the lists.
IF you must know I RARELY come across problems with this list, and honestly if you think that playing this many colors is tough, then your playing the deck wrong.
If you are trying to justify me dropping green then you should just turn and walk away now. As I'm not dropping deed. Deed has won me soo many countless games its unreal. It's quite possibly the third strongest card in the deck which is why it's played! Test the deck before you give me crap.
But not enough Deed needs Black/Green and Humility double White. So your mass removal is hard to play sometimes.
6 fetches
eternall dragon
4 brainstorm
and my deck has trouble producing g/b or ww? Are you smoking something?
The deck is finely tuned the way it is besides for the sb. I know this because i've been playing the deck for alot longer then it took you to judge my list upon seeing this thread.
And thats another Problem 1xisland/1xplains, people dont play Bloodmoon/Magus / choke /BtB or stuff like these in your Meta?
First off let me remined you that hydroblast is in the sb. That should answer your first two threats. Either that swords or FOW. If im on the draw and they get 1st turn blood moon whatever. The percentages cant be favoring you if you dedicate yourself to trying to screw mana bases on turn one is all im saying. As for BTB mono blue is the only deck ive seen run this card and it's really not very popular "mono blue." I think that deck is a joke but we wont go there.
I wholeheartedly believe that "Hatedecks" that run "bloodmoon" type effects to kill your board are suboptimal as they pretty much screw themselves against other mono colored strategies.
But otherwise a great deck in the right meta. ;>
Last edited by Bardo; 03-05-2008 at 11:07 PM.
Regardless of wether or not you like the deck, with your friagile manabase and particularly openness to colorscrew, MUC is goint to eat Landstll alive. They have more control elements than you could possible hope to cram into the deck, at least as much, if not more draw, and enough permission to keep you from resolving anything relevant.
Tell me mossivo1986, what turn does your deck goldfish? Because in the MUC match, you get stuck playing really shitty agro, which is something the deck fails at. Keep in mind that it wasn't too long ago that MUC was in the LMF, and don't be so quick to condescend everyone and everything on the basis that you simply don't want to hear criticism.
Team Battletoadz: Fuck the Meta-police?
If it's all in our heads, it's best that we don't loose them.
What do you guys think of this manabase in UBG:
2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Island
3 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
=25 Lands
I've been testing it to some success against Thrash, Moonthresh, and Dragon Stompy. However, I'm not just presenting it to get feedback, more to ask: Is it a good idea to cut down on Utility lands in Landstill and add basics? Because if you've noticed, I haven't cut a single blue-mana producing land from my list.
I don't think it's too smart in Landstill running nonfetchable Basics. To me 2-3 Basic Islands and a Basic Swamp were always enough not to get in too much trouble from Mana Denial. Besides I think 23 or 24 is the right number for your manabase.
Alternately, you could just start running Nevinyrral's Disk rather than butchering a manabase. Rumor has it that 8 maindeck outs to turbo Blood Moon (4 Disk, 4 Force) and 12 post-board (4 Disk, 4 Force, 4 Blast) is pretty tech.
For those that care, I don't run 4C Landstill anymore. I run UBW. I cut green upon realizing that I had no Green in sideboard and that every time a Blood Moon came down, I had a Deed in hand I wished was a Disk. I may go back to Green if Blood Moon dies down. In the meantime, however, I find Disk to be only slightly subpar to Deed for the "Sweep everything" card, and the fact that it works under Blood Moon is a nice bonus. The following is my current list.
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
3 Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Mutavault
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare / Stifle (Ah, the endless dilemma.)
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Jace Beleren
2 Liliana Vess
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Innocent Blood
4 Vindicate
3 Nevinyrral's Disk
SB:
4 Meddling Mage
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate
2 Pulse of the Fields
Planeswalkers are fun kill conditions. What's neat about them is that they're primarily card advantage cards, as they take up the slots that used to be occupied by Fact or Fiction. Killing with Jace is a last resort, as he's used mostly to sit there and draw 3 to 1 until I get enough Manlands to win or a Liliana. Having 3 lets me pitch them to Force as needed or fearlessly drop one to 0 to draw, play the next one, and draw again.
Liliana is pure sex. She comes out and immediately starts firing at the opponent's hand, and can take a break if needed to get cards to seal your win. The animate-all ability is solid against all but a very few decks. While you won't always get ridiculous animations, it generally only takes one or two threats to cause serious problems for the opponent.
Oh, yeah, and, Vindicate? Delicious.
Are the Mutavaults necessary? Wouldn't 2 Academy Ruins be better in combination with the Disks and maybe Engineered Explosives instead of Vindicate / Innocent Blood?
What are you smoking? This is exactly Marius's list save 2 minor changes:
-1 Wasteland
+1 Academy Ruins
-1 Crucible of Worlds
+1 Life from the Loam
As said, Marius and I are working together on 4c Landstill (he does most of the work though) but our lists differ in the Stifle slot so that my 4c list is -2 Stifle +1 Pernicious Deed +1 Land.
I just really don't like people wanting credit for the work of others, especially if its such a straight ripoff.
This is true. However I found that the MUC matchup isn't all that bad: just focus on dealing with their extremely low number of winconditions (most play like 2-3) and they'll deck themselves. Humility, WoG/Deed are your main tools here and Cunning Wish -> Extirpate is a very potent play too. Postboard you bring in more Meddling Mages and Extirpates for your dead Swords to Plowshares and any combination of lands/removals to actually make your clock sort of semi-aggroish (remember: they don't have a lot of ways to deal with a resolved Meddling Mage especially since they'll board out their Engineered Explosives). I tend to name Back to Basics with my first Mage (their best chance at winning on the spot if they protect it) and then their removal if they have left some in.
I don't like a lot about this list. Let's run it down.
3 Mutavault. While it's the best manland since Factory, it's still not a three of. I can see running two, maybe, but three seems like a ton of them. Are you consistently getting color screwed? Along the same lines, how bad does Wasteland kick your ass? With only six of the 8 fetches you could run, and no basics of your "Off" colors, it seems unlikely that you can consistently access the BB for Liliana and the WB for Vindicate when you're under manabase pressure from a deck like Eva Green or BW Pikula style decks.
Spell Snare/Stifle should be Stifle. And three of them. No question.
Are some dudes that are lands a legitimate enough way to win under a Standstill? Me, I wouldn't care if you drop it or not. You're unlikely to apply significant pressure under it since there's no Decree or Nantuko Mons, so you're at most swinging for like 4, which is fairly easy to deal with, even if you draw three cards.
The Planeswalkers seem pretty win-more, especially with no way to protect them.
There MUST be a better removal spell than Innocent Blood. At least Chainer's Edict hits twice. You already have 8 MD answers to Lackey, do the extra two make that big a difference?
I hate vindicate in blue decks. It's entirely possible that it's just me, but I absolutely Loathe the card.
On that note, why are you even bothering with Disk? Wouldn't a combination of EE and Wrath effects do loads better? If your big concern is Blood Moon, then run a couple basic lands, and give yourself access to like Oblivion Ring or friggin Disenchant. Disk just Screams Krosan Grip me. I've never been impressed with it unless I'm Draining into it.
I actually liked the list and made some adjustments to it (the way I'd like to play it):
2 Academy Ruins
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
3 Jace Beleren
2 Liliana Vess
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Cunning wish
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
3 Nevinyrral's Disk
3 Standstill
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
--
usual sideboard
I like to include 2 Academy Ruins, 2 Engineered Explosives en 1 Crucible. I'm still debating to include Fact or Fiction, but I'd get a lot of expensive spells then... So maybe -3 Cunning Wish, +2 Fact or Fiction, +1 Damnation..
What do you think of these ideas?
I know the mono blue control matchup isn't favorable and honestly, its really not that big of a deal to me. The next time I play it i'll be sure to let you know "which will be like 6 months from now." Aside from that the landbase has rearely ever been a problem. And like I said to the other gentlemen, test the decks base before you make judgement calls. This landstill deck like many other requires a significant amount of skill to play. Bluffing is absolutely key and if your not good at that or don't understand why the list is so unorthodox then i'm sorry.
As for the manabase i've RARELY ever had problems with it. The only times I evere have is when I got t1 mooned because I had no force, which is already not a positive matchup but that didn't help. So shoot me for not really caring about decks that give up say. . . The goblins matchups and pretty much u/g/r thresh as the run pleanty of answers to moon. As well as running a heavy red for all the burn.
If you want to talk about me telling nihil not to speak with me then you must understand where im comming from. The messege I had sent before was pretty positive and I was telling the community that I did a good deed for the legacy people by taking an interview to try to get people rev'd about legacy. Thats why I asked you guys to pay attention and look out for the interview.
He then bashed me for absolutely no reason other then to say that my spelling and grammer sucks. Which I then followed up with a. If you don't have anything relavent to the topic I brought up, and arn't nice to me then why are you even talking to me at all? I didn't say any harsh words to him to catch that onslaught of metaphors and twisted sense of humor. So I asked him to just not speak to me again. Is that really that big of a deal?
As for Der, yes I do realize that the lists are similar as i've mentioned PLEANTY of times. I have stated and gave credit due to wasteland soo many times that I honestly don't think I could do it anymore. Check the previous messeges i've sent. I consider this version my deck, and if you don't then thats fine. I tweaked it and changed the sideboard up which ive released before. As I never end up needing meddling mage after board I cutt it for hydroblast, but now im in a tisy. I need more outs to certain matchups and meddling mage does change things completely for those matchups. Im considering dropping 1 engineered plague and adding 1 hydroblast and some mages, "3 is probobly the right number"
And if you were talking about wastelands deck vs mine then no, there really isn't any real differences except for monastary academy ruins switch.
The matchup I was refering to is the uwb_wish_still. And yes there are more differences in this matchup. I was saying that you have a couple more dead cards then I have preboard and the fact that I run deed makes me really not scared of this matchup. I also think having LFTL is great because its a recursive thing that you wont counter becuase its recursive lol. You might pate it but then your getting 1 card.
Doesn't Pernicious Deed scream that, too? I think it is not that common to use Pernicious Deed the same turn it comes into play, at least 50%-50%.
I'm not a big fan of Disk, too, but I think that in UWx landstill it deserves some space. It is better than EE sometimes - against Goblins, for example.
The question is, is it better than Akroma's Vengeance?
Also, Disk gets OWNED by Tin-Street vs. goblins. You don't want that guy on the list of must-counters.
Good point Nightmare. Thats why I thought disk deserved 1-2 slots in the sb. It may sound like a bad idea, but thats why its an idea. Nothing more. What do you think nightmare?
Sorry for the (probably obvious) question, but what match-ups/problems does disk answer ?
I've posted the following list (for a Thresh light meta, althought the Thresh match-up remains fair) a couple of days ago and I'd like to know your comments. The manabase is almost as stable as Bardo's UGB list. On a performance note, I won a 20 man tourney with it last week.
Draw (12)
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Ponder
Control (8)
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
Board Control (10)
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Vedalken Shackles
Creatures (6)
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
Mana (24)
4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
Sideboard
4 Engineered Plague
3 Hydroblast
3 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
3 Meddling Mage
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
