Seems excessive on the basic Forests, since you have no way to find them sans drawing into them and an otherwise keepable three land hand composed of double 2 forest and a swamp is a mulligan.What do you guys think of this manabase in UBG:
2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Island
3 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
=25 Lands
23 seems really low for Landstill, but it also depends on the number of Wastelands and other colorless sources you're running. Anyway, 23 seems really low for any control deck; I aim for 24-26.Besides I think 23 or 24 is the right number for your manabase.
Here are the current manabases for my 3 and 4-color decks:
U/w/g/b Landstill
4 Mishra’s Factory
2 Nantuko Monastery
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Island
(25 Land)
U/g/b Landstill
4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Island
1 Swamp
1 Academy Ruins
(24 Lands) * the curve's a lot lower too
I'm kinda down on Wasteland for the time being.
I'm definitely going the other way and pushing it to be more active--that's just how I roll.Have you guys also noticed that Landstill is becoming more Reactive? Or is that just me, in my meta?
I like the list a lot. I'll go through the differences between it an my list, and talk about what seems better or worse.
-3 Fact or Fiction
-1 land
+4 Ponder
I'm going to try that change as soon as possible. FoF helps plenty, but it's usually turn 6+, when I probably have the upper hand anyway. Ponder seems like it has the effect of: reducing having to mulligan shitty hands, increasing the speed at which you stabilize, and keeping your hand full of business at a cheeper cost and with more selection (albeit not digging as deep) than FoF.
-1 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Engineered Explosives
+2 Vedalken Shackles
I probably would not make that change just because StP and EE have other applications than just getting rid of a small dude, and they do it faster. That being said, I have been looking for more wincons, and Shackles (kind of) doubles as one, so I'll test that as well. I might try C.Wish in that slot, as well, which might make more sense in this case, as you'd have access to StP in the board.
Tombstalker in the flex slot
I've been sticking everything under the sun in those flex slots, and I was not impressed with Stalker. I'm not looking for a vanilla beater (in other decks [Deadguy] he's amazing). I want something that beats but has a little more utility. Right now my slots are occupied by Quagnoth and Life from the Loam. LftL has many uses: insurance against Wasteland/Sinkhole ect., manland recursion, and an out to the crap pile generated by Brainstorm. Quagnoth is smaller than Stalker and doesn't fly, but can't be countered or targetted, which is huge - he ends games when he hits the table, flat out.
Nicely tuned manabase
I personally would never run a full 8 fecthes, but seven seems nice, so I'd probably go -1 Delta, +1 Tundra. That Swamp really doesn't make sense to me, so I'd go -1 Swamp, +1 Island. Other than that, it's probably the base that seems most likely to withstand Moons than all the ones I see posted here.
With one less Delta main, Living Wish might go well in the Shackles slot, to provide mana smoothing and some wincons.
Defending in no particular order.
Alright, assuming you're right about the first point and that 2 Mutavault is better than 3, which I will concede is very possible, that leaves me with essentially the same manabase as I ran in 4C, only with 4 basic Islands instead of 4 Tropicals. As I've been saying for close to a year, except for hitting all three splash colors (which is fixed to a degree by running less to fetch), my 4C manabase was solid and I rarely if ever lost games because of it. I could run this up to 8 fetches and 2 basics, but Stifle is a bitch. I may do it anyway though.
Versus Pikula or Eva Green, I don't really care about hitting Liliana. I care about stabilizing. Brainstorm helps defend my manabase, Swords and Blood help deal with things like turn one Specters, and whether I run Stifle or Snare, one stops Wasteland and the other stops Sinkhole. Should they try to hit my black mana to keep me off Liliana, this will allow me to win later with manlands. Should they hit the manlands, I can generally let this go through and save my counters, planning to kill them with Liliana.
As for Stifle versus Snare, I think I agree with you that Stifle's proving stronger.
Are you serious? Isn't that the point of Landstill? Manlands and Standstill?Are some dudes that are lands a legitimate enough way to win under a Standstill?
It doesn't matter how fast the assault comes under a Standstill. Either my opponent has to break it eventually or I do. As long as -they- have to break it eventually, swinging for 2 a turn is fine.
Also, Standstill with a Liliana out completely shuts my opponent off the draw-go waiting scheme to crack it when I have 7 cards in hand when I knock a card out of their hand every turn.
Killing every creature that hits the board isn't a valid way to protect them? I run 13 maindeck spells that kill creatures with 8 more counters. Oh, and manlands can protect Planeswalkers.The Planeswalkers seem pretty win-more, especially with no way to protect them.
The Planeswalkers actually fill the slots of draw spells in this deck, and I play them as such. Jace draws cards. Liliana makes the opponent discard cards or, if they're handless, sets me up a nice Standstill to seal the game. The fact that they kill if I find my manlands not sufficient for any reason helps.
Well, 10, counting Stifle, but I feel they do, given that over 1/3 of the decks in my metagame are Goblins right now, and one of the jank decks packs Troll Ascetic. Additionally, whereas my 4C could theoretically live through a Lackey hit if a Deed came fast enough, this build can't. Disk is at its absolute worst in this matchup, and it's too slow if a Lackey hits. However, on the whole, you could very easily be right. Chainer's can hit twice, Diabolic is an instant, Blood costs one less. Pick your poison.There MUST be a better removal spell than Innocent Blood. At least Chainer's Edict hits twice. You already have 8 MD answers to Lackey, do the extra two make that big a difference?
I know some people of similar opinions. However, in this particular build of Landstill, I don't have a lot I have to keep mana open for. Vindicate kills creatures, which is important to keep Planeswalkers alive. It deals with problematic artifacts and enchantments. It takes down Rishadan Port and enemy manlands. And it'll even take out an enemy Planeswalker in a pinch.I hate vindicate in blue decks. It's entirely possible that it's just me, but I absolutely Loathe the card.
Shame Mana Drain isn't legal. Le sigh.On that note, why are you even bothering with Disk? Wouldn't a combination of EE and Wrath effects do loads better? If your big concern is Blood Moon, then run a couple basic lands, and give yourself access to like Oblivion Ring or friggin Disenchant. Disk just Screams Krosan Grip me. I've never been impressed with it unless I'm Draining into it.
I prefer Disk to EE/Wrath because I run absolutely nothing that dies to it. I run it essentially just like it was Pernicious Deed - A catch-all board sweeper. In my estimate, it has three strong drawbacks Pernicious Deed doesn't have.
1. It's a turn slower. This can kill you against Goblins or ETW, the latter of which is the only time I wish I had Explosives instead.
2. It's an artifact, meaning as you mentioned, T.S. Hooligan goes nom nom chomp Disk.
3. It's much more vulnerable to Survival's Harmonic Slivers. (If they Harmonic a Deed, you can crack it for 0 before the Harmonic even resolves, leaving their only target as Survival of the Fittest.)
In exchange for this, I get upside.
1. It's completely colorless, meaning I can cut Green from the deck.
2. I can play it under a Blood Moon. This means I can save a Force on a turn three-four Moon fearlessly if I'm holding a Disk/Force.
3. It only costs 1 to detonate, meaning it's easy to use, then drop a Jace or a Standstill on the same turn with a completely clear board.
4. It kills a few random things like Tombstalker and Myr Enforcer where Deed won't until way late game.
5. It's incredibly strong against Counterbalance, as decks run even less 4-Cost CB targets than 3-costs.
6. It's incredibly strong against Stifle. Stifle kills Deed. It just delays Disk for a turn.
Matchup improvement questions are always valid and good questions.
The same ones as Pernicious Deed. It's one card that kills everything on the board, no questions asked. Wrath sweeps all creatures, sure. EE can take out just about anything. But what about if you're facing an artifact/enchantment and a creature of different mana costs? Disk doesn't care.
Ok, I see (thanks for the clarification). I'll test it and comment on it when I have something relevant to say.Matchup improvement questions are always valid and good questions.
The same ones as Pernicious Deed. It's one card that kills everything on the board, no questions asked. Wrath sweeps all creatures, sure. EE can take out just about anything. But what about if you're facing an artifact/enchantment and a creature of different mana costs? Disk doesn't care.
@Berzerked:
Thanks for the compliment about the decklist. As I said before, I'm a new Landstill player, so I have a whole lot of testing to do before being to be able to analyse card choices without leaving some major factors out. Right now, I'm transitioning from Threshold, so I guess I'm playing (and viewing) my Landstill build as a variation of Threshold.
Concerning StoP:
My meta contains a good proportion of 'random' fattie match-ups like Angel Stompy, Reanimator, Bomberman (Salvagers Combo), Rock decks, etc. so I like the versatility of StoP. I guess it's a metagame choice.
Concerning the manabase:
It has actually been tuned to be able to play Tombstalker efficiently, thus the 8 fetches and the single Swamp (which makes BB easier to access).
Tombstalker:
I really like it. I view it more like a mid/late-game finisher (a bit like Mystic Enforcer in UGW-Threshold). I guess I need to get more testing done before concluding...
"The Planeswalkers seem pretty win-more, especially with no way to protect them.
Killing every creature that hits the board isn't a valid way to protect them? I run 13 maindeck spells that kill creatures with 8 more counters. Oh, and manlands can protect Planeswalkers.
The Planeswalkers actually fill the slots of draw spells in this deck, and I play them as such. Jace draws cards. Liliana makes the opponent discard cards or, if they're handless, sets me up a nice Standstill to seal the game. The fact that they kill if I find my manlands not sufficient for any reason helps."
Taco snape if this is your plan of attack do you think creating a small "tutor" secotion of like 2 cards would be a direction you could go in? As an example 1 decree of white and one of black? Just in case your opponent had mishra's factories. Im just asking as I think it might be a good interaction for solid lockdown strategies as it appears what your secondary plan is kind of leaning towards.
Probably not. Here's why.
Liliana isn't good enough at tutoring to have specific tutor targets because she can't do it reactively. Meaning if I activate her for a tutor ability, and something changes before next turn, I'm stuck drawing that card unless I can reshuffle pretty quickly. So if I tutor with Liliana, I'm either doing it to seal a game I've already got close to won, or I'm doing it to grab a card I need to bail my ass out of a problematic situation.
If I've got Liliana out early, and by early I mean before I have the game completely stabilized, chances are I'm either going to use her hand attacking ability to keep her alive and provide card advantage, or I've got a problem I need to solve and I'm going to stick the answer on top of my library immediately.
If I've got her out alongside Jace, or once I've stabilized with a Standstill chain or whatever, then I don't really need to tutor up a kill condition, because she is a kill condition against all but a few decks. If I need a kill condition and she isn't one, I can tutor up a Jace, who will either draw me into the manlands if they work, or deck the opponent. The neat part about Jace's decking ability with Liliana out is that I can do the area draw with Jace, then immediately fire off Liliana's discard ability afterwards. Alternately, I can use Liliana's tutor + Jace's draw to act essentially as Demonic Tutor.
While all this is cool, if I've got Liliana and Jace both out and both working easily, I've probably got the game under control with what's currently in my deck. The only cards I would like to be able to tutor for are Pulse of the Fields and Extirpate, but I don't think it's currently worth trying to stick one of each maindeck.
If you have a heavy agro content in your meta, would you consider a Uwr color configuration Taco?
Here us my newest Uwr build:
lands//24
4 mishra's factory
4 flooded strand
4 volcanic island
3 tundra
3 mutavault
1 academy ruins
1 plains
2 island
2 faerie conclave
spells//36
4 swords to plowshares
4 counterspell
4 force of will
4 brainstorm
4 standstill
3 nevynrral's disk
4 lightning bolt
3 fire/ice
2 engineered explosives
2 decree of justice
2 fact or fiction
sideboard//
2 engineered explosives
4 tormod's crypt
4 meddling mage
3 red elemental blast
2 pyroblast
The REB cards are there primarily because if I am not playing against aggro, then I am playing against another blue deck... the REBs help out in those MUs a lot.
I see very little land disruption here, so that is why my build is build with such a gaping hole in its' defenses in that regard... I still play UWb (Der's list primarily), but I am trying new things... this variant used to be a powerhouse, still could be, I guess.
I've been running 3 basic forests pretty much because as of late my meta is Thrash and Dragon Stompy. And since I have no answers to those decks, I need to be able to play a goyf through disruption/under moon. However, the forest can probably be cut down to 2.
UWB could be the way to go right now...god, I'd hate to have to pick up a set of Tundras. It does look strong.
I know this too because I ( ! ) tuned the manabase so finely...The deck is finely tuned the way it is besides for the sb. I know this because i've been playing the deck for alot longer then it took you to judge my list upon seeing this thread.
And I guess that i've been playing the deck for alot longer then you^^...
Greetz,
Marius Hausmann
So after some testing with Ponder in place of FoF and a land, I must say I enjoy them. I can't necessarily compare them directly to FoF because they play such a different role, but they definitely work. I was able to find permission, answers, and get rid of extra chaff, all in turns1-3. It's obviosly not as good late game, but eh, I win when it hits the late game anyway. I'll test these slots more though.
Vedalken Shackles blew. Decks these days aren't packing as high a threat density as would be needed for Shackles to be effective, it seems. Goyf is too big in the early game, Mongoose is shrouded, Confidant can screw me. Idk, it was just kind of clunky and ineffective. I was much happier with an StP & EE in those slots. I have yet to test C.Wish there.
One thing I didn't notice about your manabase until I tested it, aTn: no Monestary. Sure, extra colorless lands can screw percentages blah, blah, blah. Monestary is a straight beast. I'd try to include it as atleast a 1 of.
@Mental: 3 Forest seems like a little bit much. So does 2. If you're running 24 lands, I wouldn't go over 6 that don't produce blue, personally. If you play 25, I still wouldn't go over 6, but you could probably do 7.
I understand that in some match-ups/metagames it can be underwelming, but in my case it has been very good.
Godd idea, I'll definitly test it as a 1-of. I'll let you know how it turns out.One thing I didn't notice about your manabase until I tested it, aTn: no Monestary. Sure, extra colorless lands can screw percentages blah, blah, blah. Monestary is a straight beast. I'd try to include it as atleast a 1 of.
Hey, what are your guy's thoughts on running tsabo's decree is a viable wish target in uwb cunning landstill? i mean i know its pricey but it can dominate goblins/slivers/other random tribal decks.
This isn't meant specifically at you, Berzerked. In fact, I have no opinion yet on Ponder, as I haven't tested it. I just want to make an observation.
In lots and lots of control decks thread, I keep seeing this argument: "Well, this option isn't as good in the late game, but I win if I hit the late game anyway, so I'll just pick the best early-game option". However, the more you lean towards early-game choices, the more of that late-game advantage you lose, meaning that "reaching the late-game" becomes less of an automatic win.
It's sort of a zero-sum dynamic. Now, normally you'd aim for balanced chances at every point in the game, and then capitalize on your skills to tilt those in your favour. However, improving the early game offers diminishing returns to a control deck, since all you can achieve is to not lose better. Therefore I think a control deck should still lean towards a solid mid-late game, where it can actually exploit its advantageous position to earn a tick mark on the Win box.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
I agree with you Nihil.
There's no question, in the mid/late-game, that FoF is crazy when compared to cantrips like Ponder. What I liked about Ponder this far (in my build anyhow) is that it actually lets you dig for answers early game and helps you plan your mid/late-game also by digging (getting Goyf/Stalker when you plan to clear the board, getting counter back-up for a game-wrecking Deed, etc.). Then again, I might be playing the deck like a douche... I'm planning on testing 3 Ponder + 1 FoF and 2 Ponder + 2 FoF (respectively) instead of 4 Ponder.
P.S.: Until now, I have loved Tombstalker. He sometimes has the added bonus of removing cards you don't want Extirpated and to lower Goyf's power when it's relevant to do so.
This was my thought exactly. Landstill wins the long game because it runs a lot of ridiculous card-drawers. If you start cutting the card drawers, it no longer becomes true. You start losing the long game to, say, other Landstill decks.
Ponder is also weak because it's not an instant, and turn one is when you -most- need to have instant speed spells to keep things from getting out of control. Turn one allows EOT Brainstorms if necessary, EOT Swords to clear a board for a turn two Standstill, a fast Stifle against a Wasteland, a fast Stifle against an opponent's Fetchland to timewalk into a Standstill, Or if you run it, Spell Snare to stop half the format when you're on the draw.
Threshold makes better use of Ponder because it has more options than Landstill when it has no mana open. It runs 8 0-mana counterspells: Force and Daze, and Daze is at its absolute strongest in the first couple turns. Landstill doesn't run Daze. Therefore Landstill can't tap out on the first turn quite as safely to cast that Ponder.
As for Fact or Fiction, FoF's biggest problem as of late is exposing you to the world of Extirpate. At the same time, though, if you run Monestary, it's fantastic at fuelling Monestary's Threshold, and if you run Loam, it's accessible regardless of which pile it ends up in. Fact has its strong points and weak points like any draw spell.
I personally prefer Jace right now as a draw spell. Jace can be a weaker draw than Fact and you have to protect him, but if you can defend him for a couple turns, he'll outshine any other draw spell in the universe. And in a rare pinch he can be used to kill an opponent, but if he stays out safely for a long time, you should be able to beat your opponent with what you have by drawing two extra cards every three turns.
I understand where all of you are coming from. Remember, I just picked this up to test. All I play is Landstill, so I'm just going from what I know, but so far Ponder has been fine.
There hasn't been a time where I wished Ponder was FoF. It still digs, but earlier. I'm trying to get to the point where I have 5-6 lands in play before I can dominate. Normally I would agree with what you say about control and the ridiculous draw being good, but FoF helps when I've already stabilized, and I'm trying to hit threats mostly. Ponder digs for threats late game too, but it also digs for answers earlier, when I need them. Once I can Deed the field, the game is pretty much in the bag. The faster I can get to that point, the better, and Ponder does it faster. Again, after the Deed, it still digs for threats.
I also run Goyf, and running my own Sorceries is just more synergistic. Obviously not worth playing a weaker card, but it's a bonus.
Now, I'm not a die-hard Ponder fan or anything, this is just what I've observed.
On a side note, Shackles was amazing in testing today. Got to steal a Tombstalker, which was sweet.
First turn is really crucial for landstill (like was mentioned above) in that you often need stifle/spell snare/swords/brainstorm (against discard) mana open. Therefore you are far less likely to cast ponder first turn. If FoF is really only helping you when you've stabilized (which, I must admit, has been the case on occasion during my testing) why not try out impulse instead of ponder. You say what you want is to dig for answers, and impulse digs one deeper than ponder (unless you use the shuffle effect, but that becomes random) AND is instant speed. That way you can hold 2 mana open on turn two for counterspell, removal, etc. and if the mana isn't needed you can just cast your dig spell.
On another note, I've been playing 4c lately and trying out different secondary removal spells. I've tested smother, i. blood, diabolic edict, shriekmaw, and ghastly demise. A 2/2 split of shriekmaw and smother has been working best for me, because it provides a few extra kill conditions (which don't often die to deed, unlike goyf) and fits into the removal slots. The sorcery speed hasn't proved as bad as I'd thought it would. Time will tell though.
Hello Wasteland. It's nice to see you on the boards again. Any yes obviously you played this version and tested the hell out of it. I understand, but what I do want to say is this. I have given you credit soo many times for this deck in posts that I really just don't want this thread to become a topic of "yes im referancing wasteland's build." In short I've made some subtle changes as I see fit in my meta and the build I have is VERY slightly different. More like tuning I would even say. But realisticly i've been playing the build since we last talked. Remember way back yesteryear? Yeah, back then if you can remember. And if you look back then you'll notice I gave you credit every single time I referanced your list. The list I was playing. As time obviously goes along I noticed that monestary wasn't winning me games and that often times it was a dead land and I wanted something to help me control the board and make my mishra's that much better. This is where the inclusion of ruins came in. It enables me to continue the beats once I remove their hand advantage and keep control of their creatures. It also gives you yet another win condition "milling" and continues to impress in almost every game I play it. I also switched LFTL in for one of the slots of crucible and so far it's been great. I enjoy having card advantage even if I know I don't that most of the cards are lands ect. The sb i've come up with IRL is alittle different then yours as well, but once again these are just small changes. I won't even referance those changes inless you want to see the differences. And like I said they are small but impacting.
Your original list was fantastic, and it really inspired me to continue playing landstill and actually pick up this list for a irl deck. It just kicks the crap out of most of the decks in the field. And even in the mirror I feel like this deck has a pretty solid advantage over the field of decks.
Thank you for the beautiful build 4cwish_Still. -Joel Ferris.
Your list, his list: who the fuck cares? Get over it, children...
I'll definitely give that a shot. It's true that I wasn't using Ponder turn1 unless I was casting it off my only blue source to dig for more (normally I would never keep a 1blue hand but I've been doing it with Ponder to see if it's a correct play. So far it's been fine though). Impulse might have been the same if not better in most of the situations. I've never been a fan of putting the cards on the bottom, but we'll see how it goes.
What list are you playing that you have 4 slots open for removal?On another note, I've been playing 4c lately and trying out different secondary removal spells. I've tested smother, i. blood, diabolic edict, shriekmaw, and ghastly demise. A 2/2 split of shriekmaw and smother has been working best for me, because it provides a few extra kill conditions (which don't often die to deed, unlike goyf) and fits into the removal slots. The sorcery speed hasn't proved as bad as I'd thought it would. Time will tell though.
I like to think I run a pretty optimal list tuned to my playstyle, and most of my slots are concrete, except for the 3 FoF + 25th land, and the 2 left over for removal/utility/ect. Shriekmaw was incredibly underwhelming in my testing (Of course I see a lot of Confidant + Tombstalker on a daily basis...), and Smother was awesome. Funny enough, Smother and Edict tend to be exactly the same in my meta: sometimes theres more than one creature in play, sometimes it's >3cc, but neither of those situations happens frequently enough that it can't easily be shored up by a Deed or StP.
I've been playing a list very similar to Tacosnape's old 4c list:Originally Posted by Berzerked
Lands: 24
4 Tundra
4 Tropical island
4 Underground sea
3 Flooded strand
3 Polluted delta
4 Mishra's factory
2 Nantuko monastery
Blue spells: 22
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Fact or fiction
4 Force of will
4 Counterspell
3 Stifle
Other spells: 14
4 Pernicious deed
4 Swords to plowshares
2 Smother
2 Shriekmaw
1 Life from the loam
1 Decree of justice
The third FoF has been underwhelming, but I'm not sure what to replace it with that wouldn't just be another random one-of. Other than that, the deck performs admirably.
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