[Deck] Monoblue Control (MUC)

[Arsenal]

At first glance, I wouldn't play Daze. Daze in tempo-based decks, such as Fish or Threshold, is amazing. Daze in pure control decks, that absolutely needs to hit a land drop turn 1-4, is not.

I'm always going to love Ophidian, but I dropped him for actual draw spells. (1.) Ophidian will not be swinging unopposed as often as you'd like in the current metaGoyf, (2.) Ophidian dies to virtually everything; Bolt, Shriekmaw, StP, Smother, etc. (3.) You can't afford to tap out on your mainphase on turn 3. If you wait until turn 4-5 to cast Phid w/ counter backup, you could have just as easily played an actual draw spell at EOT on turn 3, gotten some goods, then been prepared to tangle on turn 4 w/ all lands available for whatever. All in all, I'd drop him for actual draw spells; Think Twice looks nice in that 4x slot.

I'd go 1x Meloku, 1x Morphling. Having 2x ______ opens you up to Expirtate, Meddling Mage, etc. Also, by having two different win conditions, it makes you more flexible and makes your opponent combat two avenues of attack (1 Superman + lots of 1/1 flyers).

Factory is interesting, how's your testing gone? I've always favored the traditional Quicksand in that slot, as B2B + Quicksand = okay, but B2B + Mishra's Factory = anti-synergy.

[Lhet]

For the factory, it's proved itself valuable. If I don't have b2b, it's amazing at blocking stuff as a 3/3, and even with b2b out, it's a 2/2 blocker.
As far as Ophidian, I like that it really never stops. I've won many games off it, and alongside blocking small stuff, it will generally draw me 3+ cards.
As far as a 1x morphling 1x meloku. Yeah, I'll probably do that later, once I can actually find a morphling.

[Arsenal]

Kadaj -

On your suggestion, I've been testing Ancestral Visions vigorously (in place of my beloved Brainstorm). As you have far more experience with the card I have a question:

When do you suspend AV usually?

Assuming I have it in my opening hand, I've noticed alot of times, the turn I suspend AV has alot to do with if I played first or not. My build of MUC also runs Force Spikes & Spell Snares, so 1st turn AV isn't always as attractive if I suspect my opponent is going to open with something nasty. If AV and Force Spike are in my opening hand, and I'm playing first, I find myself going Island -> pass about 50% of the time; the other 50% is taking a chance and going Island -> AV -> pass. Obviously, if I have FoW, it makes AV suspend way easier, but I can't always rely on having AV + FoW in my hand; nor do I want to play a card (AV) that needs FoW to be a good turn 1/2 play, I want to play a card that has potential to be a good turn 1/2 by itself.

However, the games I do not suspend AV on turn 1/2, even though I technically could (had it in opening hand), I've found that I needed to wait until turn 3-4 to suspend it, allowing me to have counter mana open for my opponent's mainphase. This is especially true if I'm on the draw. I cannot tell you how frustrating it is to have it in my opening 7, but since I'm on the draw, I choose not to suspend AV asap, because I want to have Force Spike/Spell Snare mana open when my opponent hits his 2nd land drop.

In your testing, how often did you suspend AV on the play turn 1, and how often did you suspend AV on the draw turn 1? There are a couple decks out there with zero turn 1 plays, but the vast majority of them have legit turn 1 plays that I need to have Force Spike (on the play)/Spell Snare (on the draw) mana for (Goblins, Stompy variants, Stax variants, Sui variants, Thresh, all combo).

I've had no problems with it when everything is going my way (I'm on the play, I suspend AV and pass, my opponent drops a land then passes), and I like drawing 3 cards, but it's getting it suspended that is frustrating me. There have been times where I risk it, then I see a turn 1 Lackey/Vial/3Sphere/Needle/Tangle Wire/Pit Dragon/etc from my opponent and I stab myself in the eye. It's either (a.) go all in and run the risk, hoping that AV draws you into Keg/Shackles/bounce, or (b.) hold back and suspend AV on turn 3-5, allowing you counter mana + AV suspend.

[Kadaj]

It probably has more to do with the way I've been building my MUC lists recently more then anything. Because I only have two potential turn one plays outside of AV (I run 2 Spell Snare) I almost always suspend AV on turn 1 if I can. However, as I have tested lists like the one you've described, with 7-8 other turn 1 plays, I would say when I suspend (or even whether I would even play AV in the first place) depends on the makeup of the rest of the list. If you play the maximum number, or close to it, of Propaganda and Back To Basics suspend them on turn 1 every time, period.

I've actually won games against Goblins where they've gone Lackey into SCG on the play and my turn 1 play on the draw was AV. How? I dropped Propaganda and Back To Basics and shut down their ability to attack me for the rest of the game. In fact, in my last preboard. testing session against Goblins, I had a 5-5 game record overall and was 3-2 on the draw, 2-3 on the play. Two of my wins included being hit by Lackey on the first turn and the other three were total blowouts. Most of my losses involved an active Aether Vial, but that's another story.

Basically, I've gotten to the point where I no longer consider it crucial to counter opponent's turn one plays because I feel confident that my mid-game tools will mitigate any potential damage I might suffer in the early game. I've applied this against Goblins, Threshold, and Landstill (different, because it's control) with favorable results so far. Obviously this approach is hardly a sound way to deal with combo, but against more or less everything else it works out very well. I daresay the only deck I would not risk that against is Dragon Stompy, because there's a good chance they'll be able to kill you before you even reach the midgame if you offer up no resistance.

Anyway, in summary, I almost always suspend AV as soon as I can. However, in your list I would imagine suspending it on turn 2 or 3 is potentially the correct play a large amount of the time as well.

[Arsenal]

That's the problem I've been having; I run light creature control (only 2 Kegs and 2 Shackles). I cannot hope that AV on turn 4-8 draws me into answers for resolved turn 1/2 threats my opponent played, I just don't run that many solutions to resolved threats, I run plenty of 1 mana counters and dig to ensure they don't resolve in the first place.

I suppose that in creature-solution lite builds, like mine, AV is less than stellar. Suspending it on turn 4, then getting 3 cards on turn 8 is less than attractive, as the late game has never really been a problem for me w/ FoF and natural drawing redundancy, it's surviving the early game; hence, why I play bunches of 1 mana counters to stop that pivotal turn 1-3 insanity that most decks play.

In creature-solution moderate-heavy builds, I can see why AV on turn 1 is a better play, even if means letting a turn 1/2 threat resolve.

I think I'll stick with Brainstorm for now. If I move away from counter-heavy to creature-solution heavy, I'll give AV another shot.

For reference:

20 Island
4 Quicksand
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Impulse
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Force Spike
4 Spell Snare
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Powder Keg
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Back to Basics
1 Morphling
1 Meloku, the Clouded Mirror

I replaced Rune Snag with Spell Snare, as an experiment to deal with turn 1-3 insanity. I might be switching these back. I'm experimenting with running 4-of everything to see how the redundancy effects my deck, but might be cutting a FoF, Impulse, and a Spell Snare to fit 3x Propaganda.

[Kadaj]

Yeah, in a list like that I wouldn't bank on Ancestral Vision. The advantages do not outweigh the drawbacks that would that kind of list pretty hard when it counts. Mind you, I'd still advise you find room for more mid-range punch in that particular list, I just wouldn't suggest Ancestral Vision.

[KingAlanI]

My latest 1.5 (Legacy) deck is MUC (monoblue control); which requires a fair amount of decision-making to play properly. I would like help with that.

First off, here's the decklist I'm working with: (I'm not looking for decklist analysis per se, but it's obviously important info. :))

[sblock=decklist]
[deck=Mono-Blue Counterspell Control]
Sleeves: Black
Format: Legacy
//
Land (25)
25 * Snow-Covered Island

Creatures (3)
1 * Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 * Meloku, the Clouded Mirror
1 * Morphling

Instant (27)
4 * Counterspell
4 * Dissipate
4 * Force of Will
4 * Spell Snare
4 * Fact or Fiction
4 * Ancestral Visions
3 * Remand

Enchantment (2)
2 * Back to Basics

Artifact (2)
2 * Vedalken Shackles
1 * Powder Keg

Sideboard (15)
2 * Blue Elemental Blast
2 * Hydroblast
4 * Trickbind
3 * Annul
2 * Back to Basics
1 * Powder Keg
1 * Vedalken Shackles
[/deck]
[/sblock]

Some of my strategy involves the big question:
(Assuming I have a counter in hand, should I try to counter spell such-and-such)
That's something I've had problems with occasionally during playtesting.

Fact or Fiction I wait to play until opponent's EOT. Isn't that the correct way to do it?
* Note: If I have no counter sin hand, and my opponent puts something obnoxious on the stack, I sometimes play FoF in the hope of digging up a counter.

That brings up another question: Once my opponent makes the piles, what should I keep?

Teferi is similar - I wait till EOT to play him, unless I have a chance to flash him in as a surprise blocker.
Also, what should I do if I have Teferi in play and Morphling or Meloku in hand? Something similar?

[KingAlanI]

Also, I have some sideboard questions:

Often, it seems obvious what I should sideboard in, but sometimes not so obvious what to board out. Any help there?

What comes to mind is:
side out Back to Basics if their deck is all basics; but what should I do if I face only a few nonbasics?
side out Vedalken Shackles if opponent's deck is creatureless
side out Spell Snare if none (or only a few) of opponent's spells cost 2.

Failing that, I think I'd take out the Remands next.

[Nihil Credo]

How long have you been playing? Do not take this as an attack, but if you're still wrestling with the "Play instants at EOT unless needed otherwise" concept, it makes me wonder if you might need some more time playing a proactive deck before picking up something as intricated as MUC.

[KingAlanI]

The reason I said that, "Play instants at EOT unless needed otherwise", is an attempt to make it clear that I already have a handle on the obvious. :)

[raharu]

Asking in the MUC thread would help :] That's what those threads are for, right?

Constructive comments time: If you have Teferi in play, don't play another Win-Con. You shouldn't try to protect 2 different valueable assets if you can avoid it. Hold the other one until you can no longer protect the other threat (i.e. It's killed).

@ list: I would cut the Remands from the deck, playing +2 Back to Basics, and +1 something else (possibley Cryptic Command). Is 25 lands too much?

[Braves]

I have a couple of quick questions. how does countertop do in testing. And is stifle not effective enough to justify maindeck 4?

[Bahamuth]

I have a couple of quick questions. how does countertop do in testing. And is stifle not effective enough to justify maindeck 4?

CounterTop is quite a tough call. I've seen some people have some success with it in MUC, but I think it's generally not suited for MUC. First of all, you absolutely need Top to make Counterbalance usefull, and vice versa. Beside that, you will have to run Brainstorm and fetchlands to properly use it, which are both questionable in MUC.

CounterTop to me feels more like a pair of cards that are better at gaining tempo-advantage rather than control. MUC is just the deck that cannot abuse this tempo control.

The same basically goes for Stifle. Stifle will usually only give you a tempo advantage (storm-combo aside), which MUC can barely use to gain overall advantage or cardadvantage. The card does not provide a permanent answer to your opponents threats. I think it's therefore not suited for MUC.

Kadaj, could you please post your latest list with Ancestral Visions and Propaganda? I'm considering running MUC at some tournaments soon.

[Silthyn]

My current MUC-list:

// Lands
23 Island

// Creatures
2 Morphling
1 Rainbow Efreet

// Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Spell Snare
1 Forbid
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Impulse
3 Propaganda
2 Powder Keg
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Back to Basics

// Sideboard
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Back to Basics
1 Powder Keg
1 Propaganda

Basically, I run Rainbow Efreet over Meloku because of Pernicious Deed. Chalice are there for the StifleNaught matchup (I met three in the latest tournament), and the GAT matchup (yes, GAT sees some play here). However, I'm not really sure they're necessary.

[deadlock]

Nice list, mine looks similiar:

-1 Efreet
+1 Meloku

-2 Impulse
-1 Forbid
+2 B2B
+1 Propaganda


Notes:
-Impulse is great, i see it as additional copies of your most important cards, therefore i wouldnt go to 4 B2B and 4 Propaganda maindeck.
-23 Land may be enough, i have to test this.
-I like Meloku as an anti aggro tool, it may be too slow though.

Sb notes:
My current Sb looks like:
1 Shackle
1 Powder Keg
1 Propaganda
4 Force Spike
4 Crypt
3 Hydroblast
1Echoing Truth

Keep in mind that this is just a rough draft.

[Kadaj]

Counter-Top and Stifle have both been discussed previously and are both awful in MUC for reasons stated several pages back in this thread (and reiterated on this very page by Bahamuth).

My list has been in flux for about a month at this point, but this is the build I was referencing that went 5-5 against Vial Goblins in testing:

X25 Island
X4 Fact or Fiction
X4 Ancestral Vision
X4 Force of Will
X4 Counterspell
X2 Dissipate
X4 Back To Basics
X4 Propaganda
X4 Powder Keg
X2 Vedalken Shackles
X1 Morphling
X1 Meloku, The Clouded Mirror
X1 Rainbow Efreet

SB:
X4 Blue Elemental Blast
X4 Chill
X3 Jace Beleren
X1 Vedalken Shackles
X3 Variable Slot (This has been everything from Repeal to Pithing Needle and everything inbetween)

The sideboard is obviously customizable to whatever your metagame happens to be, but the maindeck also has a very important qualifier attached to it.

This build is designed to be optimal against Goblins, Threshold, and Landstill, AND THAT'S IT. I did not design this list with a single other matchup in mind. That's not to imply that you don't have solid matchups against other archtypes inherently due to card choices and whatnot, but my main goal was to have positive expected value against a field of nothing but Goblins, Threshold, and Landstill.

For what it's worth, this list accomplishes that very well. You have 60-40 overall matchups (with sideboard) against all three of the aformentioned decks and are very well equipped to handle all other incidental control and aggro-control variants you might run into. Aggro is fairly solid, although Suicide Black Variants and Tomb Stompy can be a pain in the ass if you can't find a Propaganda early (these are the rare matchups where I wanted some kind of card quality or dig effect, and if your metagame has a significant amount of Red Death or Eva Green, find room for some Brainstorms of Impulses). The major weakness is combo. Yes, this is a MUC deck that has awful matchups against most combo assuming your opponent is competant.

There are a lot of compromises going on in the above list, so make sure to tailor both the sideboard and the mainboard to fit your expected metagame. However, if the tournament you're attending will likely contain mostly tier decks and not alot of Suicide Black variants or combo, I can say with almost total confidence that this is the build of MUC you want to be playing.

On the other hand, if you're expecting almost no Vial Goblins or other aggro you should almost definitely cut the Propagandas out of the main and put them in those variable sideboard slots. You might even look at replacing Ancestral Vision, which is believe it or not most important against Goblins, with Impulse or Brainstorm. I'd also probably look to find room for more countermagic in that type of metagame.

As far as specific card choices go, the one card I don't like at all in the above list is Dissipate. Primarily because it sucks. I tried out Cryptic Command for a while, but it was more or less a piece of garbage because 4 mana is way too much for a counterspell in Legacy. I'll be looking into Foil, Thwart, and Pact of Negation despite their janky appearance in my upcoming testing, so I'll let you all know how that goes.

EDIT:

The more I look at this list the more I think I'll at least experiment with going back down to 23 lands and cutting 1 Propaganda and 1 Back To Basics for 4 Impulse. I'm not sure if that'll be an effective compromise, but I think it might smooth out some issues against random aggro the list has.

[slobad23]

@ Kadaj

"You have no idea what you are talking about in any way what so ever!". This is what i thought of you when i first started reading through the MUC thread. I must admit, that opinion has drastically changed now. It all started when you said "I play MUC without brainstorm" and i just wanted to reach through my monitor and give you a gentle slap. i have however, followed this thread while doing playtesting of my own with MUC and find what you have been saying makes more sense. it has taken what, 5 or more pages of the same topic being talked over again and again but each post you made got me a little more on side.

After playing MUC myself, i can see exactly why you would build your deck the way you have for the tier one decks. it has taken me a while to realise this because my meta contains a lot of 1.5 to tier 2 decks aswell. This makes building MUC to have a good game one less than easy! as you have pointed out... your list struggles with stompy. i have to face that as much as i am facing thresh.

My list for ref:

13x Island
1x plains
1x swamp
4x polluted delta
4x flooded strand

1x morphling
1x meloku
1x teferi (a love hate relationship for this guy)
1x rainbow efreet

4x brainstorm
4x fact or fiction

4x force of will
4x counterspell
4x spell snare
2x mana leak

3x back to basics

3x vedelkan shackles

2x powder keg/propaganda (i am changing these a lot atm)
3x engineered explosives

As with most formats, control has to be built differently depending on your meta - but never has this been more true than with legacy. it used to give me emo tears when i would hear people saying "blue control can't compete in legacy" and i wanted to prove them wrong. MUC would pop up in tournaments every now and again... but it would need a good combination of luck and skill (with a knowledge for what you would be seeing on the day) to make any sort of progress.

my point in this post? well i guess it was just to pop in my 2 cents and apologise to Kadaj for all the insults that got thrown at him my side of the interweb , and also to just say that no list you are going to find on here is going to be copied and suceed for you. when people are posting their lists, they need to be specific as to what metagame they are playing in. you can't just build a generic MUC list and rely on your sideboard to get you through.

Slobad

[Poron]

I'd like to crosspost this http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ead.php?t=7855

It appears very good to me, I can't really see the point of not to run CounterTop in MUC. It just works.

I also like the SB, really but the deck really needs
-board sweepers
-WC
-Draw spells

can we work on that list? it seems pretty strong

[KingAlanI]

Remand was already kinda slated for removal.
More B2B, Keg, Propaganda or Shackles into maindeck in its place, for sure.

And I understand, protecting the wincons, since I only have 3. :)

[Kadaj]

See but that's the thing, it doesn't work. There have been numerous posts in this thread explaining precisely why it doesn't work, and I'm not going to reiterate the entire set of reasons all over again, but they basically come down to this. Contrary to popular belief, Counterbalance-Top is not a hard-lock. It grabs a ton of tempo, but it can be removed and it is more of a stop-gap then anything else. MUC is not equipped to utilize the amount of time and tempo bought by Counter-Top, and there is not nearly enough space in the deck for it to fit anyway.

slobad23:

I appreciate the compliments. The less predictable your metagame is the harder it is to build MUC successfully. Knowing what you're aiming at makes your job a lot easier, being unsure makes it many times as difficult.