Shadowmoor Info

[Arsenal]

Isn't Krosan Grip green? That is one of the best ways of dealing with Counterbalance.

I'd actually say that he's better as a red solution to Counterbalance, for which there are very few, if any.

Grip can still be countered by Counterbalance if your opponent knows what he's doing. Using Susher, Counterbalance doesn't do anything to any of your spells.

[Alfred]

Grip can still be countered by Counterbalance if your opponent knows what he's doing. Using Susher, Counterbalance doesn't do anything to any of your spells.

If you know what you are doing, Krosan Grip is almost always going to hit Counterbalance.

I'd say the downside to Shusher (easily removable) is much worse than your opponent tricking you into wasting a Krosan Grip on his Counterbalance.

[Arsenal]

Uh, there isn't too much you can do about your opponent having a 3cc spell on top of their library... or bluffing one that you don't call him on. Again, Grip isn't Counterbalance proof, and most Thresh builds (the deck that uses Counterbalance the most) have become quite adept at fighting off Grip.

[Alfred]

Uh, there isn't too much you can do about your opponent having a 3cc spell on top of their library... or bluffing one that you don't call him on. Again, Grip isn't Counterbalance proof, and most Thresh builds (the deck that uses Counterbalance the most) have become quite adept at fighting off Grip.

Here is what you do: If they are manipulating their deck so that a 3CC spell is always on top of it, you wait until their upkeep, where they will use Top switch it to the second card down, then Grip the Counterbalance.

[Arsenal]

Here is what you do: If they are manipulating their deck so that a 3CC spell is always on top of it, you wait until their upkeep, where they will use Top switch it to the second card down, then Grip the Counterbalance.

I didn't know we were factoring Top into the equation. And if we are, most Thresh players I've played against, knowing that I'm running Grip, try their hardest to have a there top 3 cards be 2cc, 3cc, 3cc (not in that particular order though).

Again, there will be times when they have it and beat you, when they bluff and beat you. And vice-versa. It's fair more even then you make it out to be for the Counterbalance player.

EDIT: Im' a tool

[Nihil Credo]

I didn't know we were factoring Top into the equation. And if we are, most Thresh players I've played against, knowing that I'm running Grip, try their hardest to have a there top 3 cards be 2cc, 3cc, 3cc (not in that particular order though).

Again, there will be times when they have it and beat you, when they bluff and beat you. And vice-versa. It's fair more even then you make it out to be for the Counterbalance player.

You're kidding, right?

First of all, of course Top is involved. If there is no Top, you can just test it with a spell and you are then 100% guaranteed of getting rid of the Counterbalance. Or just play the odds, which are pretty good since I can't think of a Counterbalance deck running over ten 3cc spells.

This ties into my second point, i.e. there is no known universe where Thresh players run enough 3cc spells - even postboard - to consistently guarantee two out of their three top cards to cost 3. And even if they did, unless they want to draw only their 3cc spells, they're going to have to put something else on top during their upkeep. Yeah, they may 'bluff', so here's a handy guide to minimize the effectiveness of their bluffing:

• If they have had Balance in play for a while and you topdeck Grip, use it straight the fuck away.
• If you have had the Grip in hand for a while and then they drop Balance, use it straight the fuck away unless they Topped this turn before playing Counterbalance.
• If they Topped before dropping Counterbalance, slump down when they drop it, untap, play a test spell without laughing maniacally if possible, let them rearrange with Top, then Grip the Counterbalance. Or alternatively, play the odds during the upkeep step right before they draw, which is often a good idea since they are even better than those in the 'Counterbalance sans Top' scenario above.

EDIT: Now that I realise this, what the fuck is this discussion doing in the Shadowmoor spoiler thread?

[Alfred]

I didn't know we were factoring Top into the equation. And if we are, most Thresh players I've played against, knowing that I'm running Grip, try their hardest to have a there top 3 cards be 2cc, 3cc, 3cc (not in that particular order though).

Again, there will be times when they have it and beat you, when they bluff and beat you. And vice-versa. It's fair more even then you make it out to be for the Counterbalance player.

EDIT: Also, Top isn't the only tool Thresh uses to manipulate the library. Brainstorm and Ponder both manipulate the library and gets around your Grip (although admittedly, if you respond to my Brainstorm/Ponder, when I have Counterbalance out, with your Grip, then you should stop playing Magic.)

Threshold runs few 3CC spells, few enough that your 2CC, 3CC, 3CC spells example is quite uncommon. Besides, this argument is Krosan Grip versus Shusher.

Krosan Grip is more difficult to stop than Shusher, because it's an instant, doesn't need to stay in play for a turn before using it and permanently deals with the Counterbalance, rather than trying to force things through it.

If you're trying to deal with a Counterbalance, Grip is possibly the best solution in all of magic, because it's CC is > than almost every spell in Thresh, it can't be countered with backup countermagic and deals with it permanently. If you're in green, and trying to deal with CB, I don't see why you would choose Shusher over it.

In red is a different story, because red has very few (if any) solutions to CB.

[Arsenal]

Threshold runs few 3CC spells, few enough that your 2CC, 3CC, 3CC spells example is quite uncommon. Besides, this argument is Krosan Grip versus Shusher.

Krosan Grip is more difficult to stop than Shusher, because it's an instant, doesn't need to stay in play for a turn before using it and permanently deals with the Counterbalance, rather than trying to force things through it.

If you're trying to deal with a Counterbalance, Grip is possibly the best solution in all of magic, because it's CC is > than almost every spell in Thresh, it can't be countered with backup countermagic and deals with it permanently. If you're in green, and trying to deal with CB, I don't see why you would choose Shusher over it.

In red is a different story, because red has very few (if any) solutions to CB.

I was thinking of Susher in a combo deck, where forcing things through might as well be permanently getting rid of Counterbalance; they won't see a next turn anyway because you've won. And in particular, TES, where green was basically cut.

[Hightower]

Just a little "flash note" here..

Vexing Shushers are already going for 40$+ a playset on eBay... But on the Shadowmoor spolier [from MTGsalvation] it says Shusher is a Release Promo - which if true, would inflate the price when Shadowmoor hits right? (sorry if I'm too off-topic here)

[Arsenal]

Eek. I guess $.99 Grip it is...

RE: Shadowmoor overall, does anyone else see that WotC is releasing more and more creatures with nifty tricks/abililties to them, and less non-creature spells with nifty effects?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

But on the Shadowmoor spolier [from MTGsalvation] it says Shusher is a Release Promo - which if true, would inflate the price when Shadowmoor hits right?

Wouldn't that reduce the price? It forced more into circulation at a fixed rate, even if for a limited time.

(sorry if I'm too off-topic here)

I can't see it being too off topic, it discusses cards from the new set. However, it's not my discretion.

[Hightower]

Hmm sorry for bad wording. What I meant to say was that it would inflate the "market", hence the price would drop if it was a Release Promo..

[Arsenal]

I like Susher, he's the most interesting/potentially playable creature spolied so far (Sygg taking 2nd place). Shadowmoor seems really interesting, but sorta creature heavy right now.

[xsockmonkeyx]

In red is a different story, because red has very few (if any) solutions to CB.

REB or Pyroblast with CB on the stack or in response to the top replacement activation.

[Wallace]

The tokens for this set look sick!!!





These are oly the first 6, there will be more later.

[Pinder]

The Elf, the Goblin, and the Elemental look pretty sweet, but the other 3 are sort of 'meh'.

[Apex]

2 new cards for Friday:

Beseech the Queen
2/b 2/b 2/b
(cmc is 6)
Sorcery
Uncommon
Search your library for a card with cmc less than or equal to the number of lands you control, reveal it, and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library.

Knollspine Invocation
1rr
Enchantment
Rare
X, Discard a card with cmc X: Knollspine Invocation deals X damage to target creature or player.

Yay for Beseech the Queen. For scrubs like myself that can't afford Grim Tutors, this is probably as close as I can get to it without shelling out $100. BBB isn't incredibly hard to generate with Dark Ritual and Cabal Ritual, and all I need it for is to tutor for an Infernal Tutor anyway.

[from Cairo]

Beseech is pretty solid, obv the real downside being that you probably want to wait til you have 2 land in play to make use of its potential in this format, so even with a ritual turn 1 it's probably not the right play. Grim Tutor is definitely still better, but this is pretty good none the less.

[Dilettante]

Beseech is still nice... because it tutors for, fairly easily... Burning Wish, LED, Rite of Flame, Tormod's Crypt, Engineered Explosives, Blood Moon...

As for those Tokens... all the art in this set is starting to look like WotC kidnapped American McGee.

[PhanTom_lt]

A perfect fit for Fecthland Tendrils? Or maybe some slower combo decks, should one exist.. Oh, I know, Nefariuos Lich!!!