Yeah, combo sucksOriginally Posted by Mental
Even playing, it's hard to beat a good Tendrils hand. Take this scenario:
Thresh player's hand:
Strand, Trop, Force, Force, Stifle, Goose, Ponder
You're on the draw.
The FT player goes fetch, break for Sea, go.
You go Trop, pass. Keep mana open for Stifle.
They lay a Delta and play Orim's Chant. You let it resolve. It's turn 2, and it's hard for FT to win off 1 land. They go Rit, Cabal Rit, IGG. They take back Chant, Delta, Ponder. You take back Force, Stifle, Ponder.
Now you lose the game. It's over. You have no aggro and 1 land in play. The FT player sits on his ass until he has refilled his hand, and then combos with Double Chant (not too hard if one tutor has been drawn) through your disruption.
Wtf. It can never be the right play to just let the Chant resolve in that case. You have double FoW and you just let the opponent kill you if he has a good hand? Also showing 1 case with 2 hands compared doesn't say much about what's the best combo deck in the format.Even playing
Thresh player's hand:
Strand, Trop, Force, Force, Stifle, Goose, Ponder
You're on the draw.
The FT player goes fetch, break for Sea, go.
You go Trop, pass. Keep mana open for Stifle.
They lay a Delta and play Orim's Chant. You let it resolve. It's turn 2, and it's hard for FT to win off 1 land. They go Rit, Cabal Rit, IGG. They take back Chant, Delta, Ponder. You take back Force, Stifle, Ponder.
Now you lose the game. It's over. You have no aggro and 1 land in play. The FT player sits on his ass until he has refilled his hand, and then combos with Double Chant (not too hard if one tutor has been drawn) through your disruption.
I believe the competitors are TES and IGGy. Solidarity and Ichorid are good decks, but really not as strong. Belcher and Salvagers are bad decks and Aluren should probably not be on that list and I can't really judge well about it anyway.
Team Nijmegen
Fetchland Tendrils. It is extraordinarily resilient and it can wait till turn 5 or 6 to pounce, which is something no other combo deck can afford to do at the moment.
Orim's Chant, and Abeyance in the side board, are what make control a sad panda when they run into the type of matchup they normally dominate in games 2 and 3.
Ichorid is a glass cannon right now. It rolls over and dies to the hate very quickly. I'd put Ichorid and Goblins as even in power level. Both will dominate early in a tournament and neither is likely to emerge at the end as the decks get tighter and more focused.
Fetchland Tendrils being the "best" Storm combo deck is reliant on both the metagame and the opponents not adapting to its pseudo control/combo plan, you can really abuse the deck if you Stifle their fetchlands, counter their Mystical Tutors and put Counterbalance on the board ASAP. Mental's example is a good example of a Threshold player who has absolutely no fucking clue what they're doing/or need to do in the match up. The current Fetchland Tendrils decks are too reliant on finding LED, winning with Tendrils of Agony and generating storm with Ill Gotten Gains, so classical hate like Meddling Mage and Tormod's Crypt actually give it a lot of problems compared to TES. Also, Fetchland Tendrils doesn't support Vexing Shusher, which is going to be a huge compliment to TES's SB.
As far as the "best" combo deck is concerned, I think Ichorid and Breakfast have their own unique place in the metagame as combo decks, because comparing them to Storm combo doesn't really make sense when their mechanics, play style and match ups are so different. Both of those decks have better aggro-control and control match ups, but they ironically lose to traditional aggro decks like Zoo, which is ass backwards for the combo paradigm. For "best" storm combo deck, I think Belcher is too binary to be reliable in a diverse metagame, which leaves Fetchland Tendrils, TES and SI as your only real options. Fetchalnd Tendrils vs TES is a matter of flavor, Fetchland Tendrils is more reliant on specific cards and more prone to permanent based hate than TES (since it's slower). TES would be the idea storm combo deckl if it were more consistent and mulligan resistant, and SI(TES) is underrated for being able to pound thru' counter walls out speed past hate if you don't mind playing with Kobolds. I think as a storm combo player, you just have to recognize that each storm combo deck has something unique to offer, and you just have to change up which storm combo deck you're playing based on the metagame.
So in summary, I guess Fetchland Tendrils is the "best" storm combo deck as of right now, but that's just because aggro-control and control players keep trying to beat it with counter spells instead of permanent based hate.
You assume they're bluffing - FT can rarely go off turn 2 with no set up the turn before. You don't want waste 2 cards to stop one of their cards, unless you think it isn't a bluff.
I know that example shows nothing about what the best Combo deck in the format is. I was just saying that there FT can beat Threshold fairly easily.
No, that example is 100% wrong. The moment FT drops the second fetch land, you know it's going to have both W and B mana. At that point, you have to assume that FT can now cast Orim's Chant and go off with protection if it drew Lion's Eye Diamond. There's no question that Threshold has to either Stifle the fetch land to keep them off of W mana, or it has to counter Orim's Chant to keep up Force of Will/Stifle here. If you don't think FT can go off on turn 2 with out set up, then you're seriously underestimating the deck's goldfishing speed and the pilot's mulliganing decisions.
FT is the inevitable, slow rolling deck, it's not just going to bluff off its Orim's Chants when it can just tutor and cantrip to sculpt a hand.
Of course FT can kill on turn 2 but it usually has to set up with a Ponder/Brainstorm effect on turn 1 to make this work.
If you do force the chant and Stifle the fetch, you lose anyways. Now you have only 1 Force as disruption. It's just a little closer.
Is this a joke? How exactly does FT win from this spot? Lucky Ponders? FT has 0 combo cards in hand. Also what is Thresh draws a Counterbalance? Or are you assuming that is not being run for your convenience? Counterbalance>Chant.Even playing
Thresh player's hand:
Strand, Trop, Force, Force, Stifle, Goose, Ponder
You're on the draw.
The FT player goes fetch, break for Sea, go.
You go Trop, pass. Keep mana open for Stifle.
They lay a Delta and play Orim's Chant. You let it resolve. It's turn 2, and it's hard for FT to win off 1 land. They go Rit, Cabal Rit, IGG. They take back Chant, Delta, Ponder. You take back Force, Stifle, Ponder.
Now you lose the game. It's over. You have no aggro and 1 land in play. The FT player sits on his ass until he has refilled his hand, and then combos with Double Chant (not too hard if one tutor has been drawn) through your disruption.
I was taking Tempo Thrash as an example, so yes, there's no counterbalance and there is Stifle.
FT doesn't need combo cards, it needs set up cards. And it has plenty of those, and an infinite amount of time to draw the combo cards it needs.
So just because usually they will not be able to combo on turn 2 you just assume he bluffs? I am very certain this is the wrong play. BreathWeapon wasn't talking about FoWing and Stifling, but 1 of the 2. I don't think Thresh autoloses when he still has a Mongoose, FoW and Stifle/2nd FoW and the IGGy player has a Chant less.
Also if this did work it still doesn't mean IGGy can easily win, it would just mean in this case it would have the advantage.
Still I agree it's a strong deck that can win from Thresh a lot for a combo deck.
Team Nijmegen
Out of curiousity, since this thread has gotten the attention of the combo players, what do you think the impact will be of Runed Halo on these combo decks. I am really curious about that since I play a deck capable of making that WW. It seems like a solid card vs them. My usual partner for testing is on vacation though so I have no one who can pilot a good combo deck to try it out with.
Sorry if it's a little off the subject. I am just wondering what might be the adjustments needed after this thing is around.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
Island + Fetchland + Goyf
Hands down the best combo in the format.
On a more serious note, my vote goes to Red Thresh since it plays three extremely solid combos...
Swans + Chains
CB + Top
Goyf + Spells
It reads combos, not synergistic doubles/triples.
Keep moon-walking.
Ichorid is the best because it can win on turn 1 even with a mulligan to four. I've done it many times. Throwing an LED onto the table whether or not you need it can give your opponent misreads about what your playing. If LED lets you discard your hand your probably gonna win against
If playing a storm combo deck leading with an LED you dont need is an amazing play. TES's rainbow lands give the same effect.
I have a biased opinion but I think Ichorid is the best combo deck simply because of it's innevitability. Even if your outlets are stunted going to 8 cards and discarding will put you in a winning position. A deck that never needs to even cast a spell and kill you is ridiculous. Ive purposely done that with versions tested super manaless with Serum Powders, Street Wraith, Wasteland, and Phantasmagorion. I'm still weighing its advantages over almost manaless ichorid which is shocking to me.
The ability to tutor for Chant is a great ability, I agree. But black thresh can simply Thoughsieze it out of your hand or Extirpate an important card for IGG. Stifle on a fetchland can actually be game over, which is horrifying.
Chalice is one of the most developmental influencing cards ever printed. Especially so for our little Legacy. Chalice aggro and Chalice prison come in every friggen color with any stupid 3 drop creature worthy of play. Chalice can ruin you when playing FT or TES. I know there are outs but the devestation from just the one card is a lot of weight for one play. Backed with counter magic or simply another lock piece, Chalice and the aforementioned Meddling Mage/Gaddock Teeg are wrecking balls against storm.
Ichorid scoofs at nearly anything. Off the top of my head here are the 5 cards I don't want to see the very most..
5) Ghostly Prison
This card is slow enough to be number five although it can really terrorize you. You can Therapy it out of an opponents hand well enough usually. Good Ichorid players have metagamed against it and run 1-2 copies of Dakmor Salvage, and keep in the Dread Returns to generate a large Troll.
4) Mogg Fanatic
He's on here because he's usually followed by more bad news. One is just fine, you play your deck like a champ and not a noob and you win through a little bridge removal. But he's always followed by Wasteland, burn PImp down, 6/7 goyfs, Piledrivers, or another freaking Mogg Fanatic. Ichorid has the sad ability to lose to Fanatic x2-3 draw, but hey.. so did Flash.
3) Tormods Crypt
This is obvious really but you have a sideboard against it. You can win through one easy enough and hopefully thats all you need to deal with. Chalice or Needle will stop the 2nd. But the gameplan following Tormod's Crypt is what really worries you. It is essentially a time walk at least, if your mid-game 4-5 time walks. If it's in Stax or Goyf Sligh its really the icing on the cake against you. In decks like Thresh or Survival its a speed bump.
2) Leyline of the Void/Extirpate
I group these together because I feel like they're both just as bad for us and are usually played as one or the other since in conjunction they negate effects. Extirpate really needs to find a second copy of itself to do much damage, which honestly doesn't happen much unless your in 3 occasions. a) Your playing against landstill and your dragged into turn 8+
b) Your playing against FT that can Mystical Tutor for them. Or TES that Infernal Tutor's for them.
c) Your opponent is a miser and just draws them in droves.
Leyline can be really bad for you or actually good for you. If you open with your Chain of Vapor and your opponent mulligans to 4 to find Leyline then you basically won the game. It can't be hardcast since it cost's four and your too fast, and run therapy. But if you had to mulligan to 4 to find your bounce, and your opponent didnt even have Leyline.. duff..
Knowing about your opponents Leylines/Exi's is the key to winning. Sideboarding Chalice and running into Leyline will lose you the game. So if your really unsure of which your opponent is playing go with Chain of Vapor. It has all around goodness to it. You wont lose to Extirpate because you have Chain.
1) The Tabernacle at Pendrel Vale
I don't even feel good about releasing that info, but hey they go for 75$ a piece anyways. In short, anything you cant Therapy, Needle, or take care of with Chain of Vapor.
a) It slows you to a crawl by negating zombie tokens without haste, basically closing down Bridge from Below.
b) It means you need to keep the Dread Return combo in the deck to try to win Flame Kin Zealot style. Forcing you to sideboard out engine pieces (or street wraiths if you play my version) for your anti-yard hate.
c) It can't be Therapied out of your opponents hand. Which is the most powerfull effect Ichorid has.
d) It means you need to have land to pay for the troll you possibly made, forcing you to NEED mana and lose to Wasteland.
e) You need to rely on Ichorids to win and open yourself up to Tormod's Crypt far more that way. Tabby + Crypt is totally free and is a sure win.
f) We have NO sideboard card's against it. When I was seeing it in my meta I actually ran Angel of Despair to destroy it or Glacial Chasm. Some of us are sticking Woodfall Primus in our boards to deal with troublesome perms.
The truth is the Ichorid will nearly always win game one since concintrated graveyard hate is the only thing that can stop it cold. But that graveyard hate is never maindecked so you only need to win 1 sb'ed game. One Pithing Needle for your Crypt in game 3 and it's all over. Automatically losing game one no matter what your playing? Facing a deck that can win turn 1? Come on this is deck is the most broken deck to play since Flash. I've been preaching it for a year at least now. People are finally putting the time into the deck they need to become experienced rather than having an overnight fling with the deck. Ichorid can become a frustrating deck with an important dredge loses you the game or your opponent drops double Leyline game 1, but if your experienced enough with the deck you can beat anything. I still learn new things in different matchups whenever I play them. Mastering the near 8 Cabal Therapies you can play is really dependant on how well you do with the deck. So is knowing how to sideboard.
I wouldn't define a format defining deck as a glass cannon.. Is that how you refered to Skull Clamp Affinity as well?
Now playing real formats.
Where do you shop for cards? I can't find tabernacles for even close to that price!
I traded for all of them, 2 from Braves for duals and fetches. It took a long time to get them but they're worth it. Amazingly powerfull effect for 0 mana, its close to having Library of Alexandria or Bazaar in our format.
Now playing real formats.
Ichorid is a very strong deck, but it really gets wasted by half the meta after sideboarding. That's why Ichorid does so well early in most tourneys and then begins to see real diminishing returns as it moves up the ladder. It starts to run into decks that have strong sideboard options for it and then it has trouble winning from game 2 on.
Meh, they're very powerful against hordes of creatures (Ichorid and Goblins). But seeing as the former along with most combo decks can be hated out or significantly crippled with Leyline, and the latter has been displaced by Goyf decks, Tabernacle is strictly a sideboard card that only fits into very specific decks built to abuse it (Pox).
If you can get them great, but I wouldn't feel bad if you can't get ahold of them, and I certainly wouldn't compare them to Library or Bazaar, not even close.
Unless you're playing against Goblins, Combo (Ichorid mirror, TES, FT, SI, Breakfast, Painter combo), a Deed deck, or a Trinket Mage deck you mean? Mulling hard is about luck more than anything. I've won turn 1 on the play with a mull to 3 with FT. I've done it several times on a mull to 4 with SI. I've seen others do it with TES. Most decks packing LED can open really busted hands despite mulling because of the boon that getting 3 free mana usually combined with a draw4 can provide.Ichorid is the best because it can win on turn 1 even with a mulligan to four. I've done it many times. Throwing an LED onto the table whether or not you need it can give your opponent misreads about what your playing. If LED lets you discard your hand your probably gonna win against
The thinking behind this is bad anyway. If you're leading with LED you're playing Ichorid, you don't need your LED, or you're an awful storm combo player. Even so, comboing without protection in Therapy SI, TES, or FT is bad form. Encouraging that behavior results in games lost that should easily be won by a more patient player.
Ichorid doesn't actually have more inevitability than storm combo. Given the same time, FT or TES set up hands capable of fighting through 4-5 counters on the same turn.I have a biased opinion but I think Ichorid is the best combo deck simply because of it's innevitability. Even if your outlets are stunted going to 8 cards and discarding will put you in a winning position. A deck that never needs to even cast a spell and kill you is ridiculous. Ive purposely done that with versions tested super manaless with Serum Powders, Street Wraith, Wasteland, and Phantasmagorion. I'm still weighing its advantages over almost manaless ichorid which is shocking to me.
The ability to tutor for Chant is a great ability, I agree. But black thresh can simply Thoughsieze it out of your hand or Extirpate an important card for IGG. Stifle on a fetchland can actually be game over, which is horrifying.
Extirpate is never an issue. You are either comboing out when they don't have mana open due to them tapping out or Wipe Away or comboing with chant/abeyance protection. The deck plays 15-17 lands against Thresh with 0-4 Lotus Petal (the standard build is 15 lands, 4 petal main, 1 island in the board) fleshed out by at least 7 cantrips and 3 tops (8 cantrips in recent builds). There aren't mana issues outside of poor luck/shuffling due to heavy statistical analysis the deck has received. The newest build has the same number or more initial blue mana sources than any Threshold build. What is an issue for Threshold is FT's ability to find and resolve Extirpates on their hard counters and their Extirpates. This results in them being completely unable to answer future Chants and Abeyances.
If anything, Ichorid has a much harder time with the disruption that black thresh presents in EE, Extirpate, and Yixlid Jailer than any storm combo deck does. Daze and Force of Will can neutralize LED and draw spells long enough to get hate for tokens or graveyard hate online.
The devastation felt by Chalice from FT is minor compared to the devastation that Chalice decks feel from our playset of Serenity accessible both main and sideboard or from the devastation of a single Shattering Spree from TES. It's frustratingly difficult for Chalice decks against TES and FT because of their ability to ignore various Chalice settings. Where Chalice @ 0 might be a monster play against one particular hand from storm combo, it's irrelevant and causes you to lose that turn to another. The safe and correct play, Chalice @ 1, leaves you vulnernable to tutors, leds, petals, and moxen.Chalice is one of the most developmental influencing cards ever printed. Especially so for our little Legacy. Chalice aggro and Chalice prison come in every friggen color with any stupid 3 drop creature worthy of play. Chalice can ruin you when playing FT or TES. I know there are outs but the devestation from just the one card is a lot of weight for one play.
Countermagic is irrelevant to properly built storm combo. Wipe Away, Krosan Grip, and Sudden Death, all cards that see a lot of play in FT simply wreck permanent-based hate. Orim's Chant renders all hard counters ineffective. Extirpate rips out hard counters from control deck making it impossible to counter Chant effects. An efficient card quality engine in Brainstorm/Ponder/Sensei's Divining Top/Mystical Tutor keep the combo deck in steady supply of their anti-control tools far faster than any control deck can keep up. Even decks like Landstill executing their strategy to the maximum are forced to sit back and pray while FT methodically optimizes its hand to go off through multiple counterspells.Backed with counter magic or simply another lock piece, Chalice and the aforementioned Meddling Mage/Gaddock Teeg are wrecking balls against storm.
Except the aforementioned other combo decks that have a faster goldfish and are more consistent about their goldfish. Except for the format's aggro control decks packing Trinket Mage/EE or even marginal draws with Daze/Force on draw spells or LED.Ichorid scoofs at nearly anything. Off the top of my head here are the 5 cards I don't want to see the very most..
The truth is the Ichorid will nearly always win game one since concintrated graveyard hate is the only thing that can stop it cold.
The list of cards that FT fears:
That's it. In case you don't understand, that list is blank. There is nothing the deck isn't prepared to beat, and nothing that an experienced pilot can't handle. Dedicated hate decks have difficulty beating it, and extreme difficulty beating anything else. The format is lucky that the deck has just been picked up. The initial round of top8s was with players who had picked up the deck a day or two in advance. When the FT pilots gain the same experience that other pilots have with their decks, a combo summer will be upon us stoppable by only Wizards' intervention.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
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