[Deck] Belcher

[Nightmare]

(double Tinder Wall comes to mind)

In the event that you have:

Tinder Wall
Tinder Wall
Rite of Flame
Manamorphose/Cantor
Chrome Mox
Red Card to Pitch
Win Con(Let's assume your win con is EtW)

You're saying that with Manamorphose, you win, and with Cantor, you lose. I'm saying, you're looking at about the ONLY scenario where that happens. Darn, one more mulligan on the day. I'm not particluarly bent out of shape on the matter, especially since your opponent probably does counter it if you're 4 cards into a 7 card hand and you're dropping to zero mana in the pool.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

In order for that to happen, the control player would have to let SSG go through uncountered. That seems highly unlikely.

SSG stands for Simian Spirit Guide right? The mana ability of Guide can't be countered, not even by Stifle.

[Nightmare]

In order for that to happen, the control player would have to let SSG go through uncountered. That seems highly unlikely.

Anyway, Manamorphose shouldn't be cast at the end of the chain. A better play would be Land, Rite, MM, Petal, SSG -or- Land, Petal, MM, Rite, SSG.

Either way, SSG is probably getting countered, but now you have an extra card in hand to help with the recovery.

Of course, in this situation, if they decided to counter MM, that would be even better.



Depends on the decklist.

A) You can't counter Simian Spirit Guide.
B) Decklist is irrelevant. I don't care what your list looks like, I'm happily anticipating examples. This isn't theory world right now, I'm looking for real world scenarios where, without considering interruptions from opponent, Manamorphose is a superior choice - in a significant way - than Wild Cantor.

So far, someone has suggested a single example. That isn't even close to enough to overcome the versatility that Cantor provides. Can you add to the list?

[m03]

SSG stands for Simian Spirit Guide right? The mana ability of Guide can't be countered, not even by Stifle.

You can't counter Simian Spirit Guide.

Total brainfart, for some reason I was thinking SSG == Seething Song.

What's funnier is I thought about it atleast a couple of times before posting..."wait, do they mean Seething Song...why would you chain Manamorphose off of Seething Song?"

[syssc9]

Wow! This thread has increased a whole page and quarter since I started writing this in spare moments today while trying to also do my day-job. It may be hopelessly obsolete now, but I'm posting anyway, deal with it! ;-)

I keep reading that playing with 4 Street Wraith is like playing with a 56 card deck. Well, yeah, sorta - but only sorta. Same is sorta true for Manamorphose, although less so, but still somewhat. Ambiguous enough? Everyone who says they are merely filler is somewhat correct. Both fish for new/additional cards. Neither card ever enters into my decision on whether or not to Mulligan. Either I have a Kill in hand and enough mana to make it work, or I do not and ship it back. OK, once in a very great while, if I have the kill but am short a single mana (and it's 3rd and long) I will take the chance offered by these cards - bid 'em up or sleep in the street! But I never draw to an inside straight. They can make a good thing better, but you better not try to use them to make a bad thing good. The odds are just too long.

Now I'll put my money - and maybe my foot - where my my mouth is. I am running 4 of both in a strictly GR deck, one Taiga, no Bayou, Dark Ritual or Cantor. I think I am trying to do the same thing as everyone else, i.e., maximize the first turn combo percentage. For me it's either 1st turn combo, or I mulligan. Right? Or am I asking too much? I don't think so with this deck.

Another possibility that remains to be explored (you know, just another couple hundred goldfishes...) might be a build with both Cantor and Manamorphose and try returning Dark Ritual to the build, but without the Bayou. I guess I would even consider pulling the Tinder Walls for the Dark Rit's. The Rituals and Bayou left my build originally for the same reason as most of the rest of you - increased overall consistency and less Belcher mis-fires. With the need for Green removed along with the Tinder Walls (I always use the alternate casting cost for Land Grant) perhaps the +2 of the Ritual could be made to work and even maintain consistency. I dunno. Gotta go goldfish. My wife's gonna divorce me if I don't talk to her sometime this week...

[Happy Gilmore]

A) You can't counter Simian Spirit Guide.
B) Decklist is irrelevant. I don't care what your list looks like, I'm happily anticipating examples. This isn't theory world right now, I'm looking for real world scenarios where, without considering interruptions from opponent, Manamorphose is a superior choice - in a significant way - than Wild Cantor.

So far, someone has suggested a single example. That isn't even close to enough to overcome the versatility that Cantor provides. Can you add to the list?

Are you actually trying to argue that Wild Cantor should be included over Metamorphose?

Careful Nightmare, I thought you were arguing for Cantor of a moment there.


Cantor, versatile? It swings...I'll give you that.

[BreathWeapon]

Either is sufficient, Wild Cantor is superior to Manamorphose in top decking situations while Manamorphose is superior to Wild Cantor in gold fishing situations. In testing, Manamorphose has been the difference between 8 and 10 goblins or pass/untap and activate Belcher enough for me to prefer it over Wild Cantor, while the double colored UU/BB supports Diminishing Returns, Tendrils of Agony or whatever Timmy targets are in my Living Wish SB.

From what I've seen, CRET Belcher could/should run both Wild Cantor and Manamorphose in order to cut Seething Song and make Dark Ritual a more consistent accelerant.

Edit:

@Nightmare, Manamorphose does have a lot of in game uses Wild Cantor doesn't, you get hands where Manamorphose lets you bypass a low storm count Empty the Warrens for Diminishing Returns against aggro, or you get hands where Manamorphose lets you bypass Empty the Warrens for Tendrils of Agony after a Diminishing Returns/Slithermuse.

It's not a decisive advantage, but oppening up decision trees never hurts.

[Michael Keller]

rom what I've seen, CRET Belcher could/should run both Wild Cantor and Manamorphose in order to cut Seething Song and make Dark Ritual a more consistent accelerant.

I agree, almost. Seething Song is a key element in Belcher. Keep it the way it is. That's why the deck is in this forum. Changing it is really unnecessary considering it is winning.

[BreathWeapon]

I agree, almost. Seething Song is a key element in Belcher. Keep it the way it is. That's why the deck is in this forum. Changing it is really unnecessary considering it is winning.

Seething Song is one of the worst, if not the worst, cards in the deck in actual Belcher vs Blue match ups. As good as it is in goldfishing, it's such an obvious Force of Will and Daze target that cutting it for a more consistent Dark Ritual is arguable.

Belcher doesn't need major changes since it's the most binary deck in the format, but there's still room for preferences. I've seen/played some wildly unorthodox and effective variants, like 8 Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon in the MD etc.

[Michael Keller]

Seething Song is one of the worst, if not the worst, cards in the deck in actual Belcher vs Blue match ups. As good as it is in goldfishing, it's such an obvious Force of Will and Daze target that cutting it for a more consistent Dark Ritual is arguable.

So what you're saying is Seething Song is so good it deserves to be cut from the deck because it can be countered, basically. That makes no sense when you consider the entire deck is acceleration and to cut one of the best accelerators in the deck seems outlandish. If something is going to be Dazed or Forced, there's not much you can do anyway, so you might as well go for it (like you should).

[BreathWeapon]

So what you're saying is Seething Song is so good it deserves to be cut from the deck because it can be countered, basically. That makes no sense when you consider the entire deck is acceleration and to cut one of the best accelerators in the deck seems outlandish. If something is going to be Dazed or Forced, there's not much you can do anyway, so you might as well go for it (like you should).

No, it's not a question of being counterable, it's a question of a 3cc accelerant being at the exact point where a counter does the most damage. Assuming the opponent is competent, he's going to use his Force of Will to prevent Belcher from achieving 4 mana instead of waiting to see whether or not the win condition is Goblin Charbelcher, Burning Wish or Empty the Warrens. Depending on what acceleration you have, and how you play your acceleration, you can end up keeping more cards in hand after a counter if you have lower CC acceleration compared to higher CC acceleration.

It's too complicated to explain in detail, and I'm tired, but the deal is Seething Song just screams "counter me" the moment you play the card. If there was another 2 for 3 ritual in R or G, I'd cut Seething Song for it, the 8 ??? slots withstanding.

[Wallace]

No, it's not a question of being counterable, it's a question of a 3cc accelerant being at the exact point where a counter does the most damage. Assuming the opponent is competent, he's going to use his Force of Will to prevent Belcher from achieving 4 mana instead of waiting to see whether or not the win condition is Goblin Charbelcher, Burning Wish or Empty the Warrens. Depending on what acceleration you have, and how you play your acceleration, you can end up keeping more cards in hand after a counter if you have lower CC acceleration compared to higher CC acceleration.

It's too complicated to explain in detail, and I'm tired, but the deal is Seething Song just screams "counter me" the moment you play the card. If there was another 2 for 3 ritual in R or G, I'd cut Seething Song for it, the 8 ??? slots withstanding.

...If something is going to be Dazed or Forced, there's not much you can do anyway, so you might as well go for it. (like you should).

[Nightmare]

Yeah, that would be all well and good, if it were true.

There is something you can do about it. Namely, you can mitigate the amount of harm the counterspell or daze will do to you, in terms of cards invested, mana invested, and recoverability. There's a reason you don't blow rituals into 7 mana before you drop the Belcher if you can avoid it. By running a rit effect like Seething Song, which costs basically one or more spells to ramp up to it on top of the spell itself, you're forcing an all-in situation every time you choose to play that spell. If it were a similar, but cheaper option (say, Dark Ritual), you could achieve the same net mana for less investment, which allows you to keep more cards in hand, should your gameplan be foiled. This means you have a better chance at rebuilding resources and trying again.

[m03]

Generally speaking, 2 mana from Belcher isn't scary. 4 mana is scary. Let's say you go Land, Petal, Rite, SSG, Manamorphose. I counter it all day long.

Ok, now that I've got this straight (from thinking you meant Seething Song before), let's address it.

You wouldn't make that play because it's a bad play. You're intentionally giving the opponent too much information by pitching Spirit Guide before casting Manamorphose. A better play would have been Land, Petal, Rite, Manamorphose (or Land, Rite, Manamorphose, Petal), and hold Spirit Guide until after MM resolves.

Given this play, would the opponent still counter MM? What does he think is in your hand after that play?

I actually lean towards keeping Cantor still, but arguing these points is mildly educational.

[Nightmare]

Ok, now that I've got this straight (from thinking you meant Seething Song before), let's address it.

You wouldn't make that play because it's a bad play. You're intentionally giving the opponent too much information by pitching Spirit Guide before casting Manamorphose. A better play would have been Land, Petal, Rite, Manamorphose (or Land, Rite, Manamorphose, Petal), and hold Spirit Guide until after MM resolves.

Given this play, would the opponent still counter MM? What does he think is in your hand after that play?

I actually lean towards keeping Cantor still, but arguing these points is mildly educational.

I agree, it's a terrible play. At the same time, doing it the better way still nets you nothing but a cantrip. That's probably fine though, since a Cantor in that slot nets you nothing.

By the way, I agree, this discussion is rather entertaining. Moreso than any other actual Magic discussion I've had lately, anyway.

[Nightmare]

As an aside, I'm about 99% sure that this should be considered the new "Standard" build:

4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens

4 Manamorphose
4 Wild Cantor

4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Desparate Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Land Grant
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
3/4 Chrome Mox
1/2 Taiga

[BreathWeapon]

Can you consistently support Dark Ritual with out Bayou? As much as failed Belcher activations suck, not being able to cast Belcher in the first place with a dead Dark Ritual would be a lot worse.

[Nightmare]

Can you consistently support Dark Ritual with out Bayou? As much as failed Belcher activations suck, not being able to cast Belcher in the first place with a dead Dark Ritual would be a lot worse.

I suppose if the issue arises you could include the Bayou, but it would surprise me, since you have 8 mana fixers plus Lotus Petal to add a single black mana. You're effectively removing 5 Black sources (4 Land Grant + Bayou) and adding 4 (Manamorphose).

[Michael Keller]

Are you actually trying to argue that Wild Cantor should be included over Metamorphose?

Careful Nightmare, I thought you were arguing for Cantor of a moment there.


Cantor, versatile? It swings...I'll give you that.

Cantor is better than Manamorphose. It's cheaper to play and it sacrifices to Dark Ritual. Simple. Playing a two casting-cost valve that replaces itself does nothing but increase storm. And it's like I said, if you already have a win-con in your hand, then all you're doing is risking emptying acceleration into a mana-converter and having it get countered. Better than having the win-con countered? Mmm depends. I mean if you're trying to win the game, then I suppose that it is a bad idea. /sarcasm.

And I don't agree with cutting Bayou in this deck, ONLY if you run black. If you do and your acceleration gets countered, having the available "real" mana is too important to pass by. It is soooo nice just tapping a Bayou and Taiga to play Burning Wish sometimes. It throws your opponent off big time because you're not dumping acceleration to play it. And now you have the capability to (potentially) cast Infernal Tutor off all that acceleration in your hand.

Yum.

[Seregrauko]

I've been following this thread for awhile now.
Never played a combo-deck, and I'm planning to make Belcher my first.

I'd like to play the black version since I love the +2 mana from Dark Rit and I've decided to give Spoils of the Vault a try.
-It can generate stormcount + mana or tutor up a wincon.
Furthermore the new edition brought Manamorphose, which I think is a great card for the deck!

With the deck still packing Burning Wish I've got 4 Belcher + 3 EtW + 4 Wish + 3 Spoils = 14 cards that functions as wincons or tutor 'em up. I like that number..

I'm trying to figure out the whole Taiga + Bayou thing. I can't imagine this deck benefitting from having a non-mountain land in it. Or running 2 lands at all.

My concerns are therefore:

Can I consistently generate the black mana for D. Rit / Spoils (Tendrils from the board?)
-Yes, I think I can. But is it possible without the inclusion of Wild Cantor?

Do I loose too much mana accel by running both Wish and Spoils? (though spoils can net a D. Rit / Seething Song / LED to get + on the mana account)

What's the reason for running Desperate Rit over Cabal Rit? -Can't we generate sufficient red mana allready?
I realize this deck doesn't hit threshold all that easy, but it certainly doesn't splice onto arcane either!

Maybe you could keep Desperate Rit and then substitute the lone Taiga with a Bayou? (With SSG we should have plenty or red sources) Or is this way to risky for the games where you have to activate Belcher without having played a Land or Land Grant?

I guess those are my initial thoughts. Any comments on 'em??

Thanks!