[OLD] UGr Threshold

[arsenalpow]

I played tempothresh in a tourney over the weekend. It was a small tourney 18/5 rounds/cut to top 8.

rd 1
Mono green aggro with beserk x4
game 1 - i kept a fetch and double wasteland hand, i figured its solid about almost anything.....except basic lands. He ran me down pretty quick as I cantripped into nothingness

game 2 - bolts and fire//ice > small creatures. I got a goyf down and started the beats. He beserked my goyf to kill it, i stifled the "die at end of turn" trigger and finished him off

game 3 - same as game 2, although he manged to off one goyf with a triple beserk after i countered the first 2

rd2
legacy boros
game 1 - spellsnare/daze/removal, stick a mongoose and ride to the end
game 2 - same as above, cool guy but easy matchup

rd3
white stax
game 1 - by far this decks worst matchup, he walked into 3 dazes and i miraculously squeaked it out

game 2 - he had a ridiculous opening. Turn 1 grid. Turn 2 crucible. Turn 3 smokestack and 3sphere. I scooped it up at the point as i couldn't comeback from that

game 3 - long and drawn out with him eventually wearing me down. i couldn't get through the ghostly prison, 3sphere, grids and armageddon with an active magus tabernacle.

rd 4
paird up w/ the 3rd undefeated guy w/ chord of calling vesuvian shapeshifer dreadnaught craziness
game 1 - i had no clue what was happening or going on. He ended up sticking a fathom seer and flipping up shapeshifter to copy his draw ability. He then used eternal witness with chords of calling etc etc and eventually just put me down. He had forces and other permission with alot of big scary spells that dont get snared.

game 2 - out tempo'ed him. A couple dazes, a snare, stifled some fetches and rode a goyf.

game 3 - long and drawn out with his shapeshifter copying eternal witness to bring back solid cards. Eventually he copied into naught and killed me

rd 5
ceph breakfast with stifle naught
game 1 - at this point i was the best 2-2 and 1 of us would be making top 8, so win and i'm in! Game started with him ripping me up with therapy pretty good x3, he stuck a vial and comboed out.

game 2 - i drew lots of bolts and fire//ice, it was fairly difficult for him to assemble the combo through my permission and removal. I stuck a couple goyfs and ran him down.

game 3 - im holding a fairly solid hand with a daze and he just mulliganned. I was feeling good until he godhanded me.
turn 1 land, vial
turn 2 land, vial in nomad, cast illusionist (daze?) force your daze GG?
An absolute perfect 6 card hand + the card he drew....

O well you cant win em all i guess

Here's what i played

4 brainstorm
4 stifle
4 spellsnare
4 daze
4 force of will

4 ponder

4 lightning bolt
4 fire//ice

4 tarmogoyf
4 nimble mongoose
2 engineered explosives

4 tropical island
4 volcanic island
4 wasteland
2 wooded foothills
2 polluted delta
2 flooded strand

sideboard
4 tormod's crypt (i refuse to concede the dredge matchup)
3 pithing needle
3 krosan grip
3 pyroclasm
2 ancient grudge

My teammate won the whole thing with a new goblins list that we have been working on. Warren's weirding + Wort = Profit

[raharu]

sideboard
4 tormod's crypt (i refuse to concede the dredge matchup)

Mogg Fanatic/ Frostling?

[goobafish]

It seems that if you had Blasts and Predators, you would have had a much better change of winning 3 of those matchups.

[arsenalpow]

i believe i was lucky to even steal one game from the stacks player as it is our worst possible matchup. The predators were always underwhelming when i played with them before, but i agree that a few blasts would been key.

[koba]

Mogg Fanatic/ Frostling?

Are you guys really advocating mogg fanatic as a sideboard card? And if so, in addition to crypt or replacing it? Fanatic seems too narrow to me. It has its uses against ichorid and breakfast, but so does crypt. Crypt is also useful in other match-ups like aggro-loam, while I cannot think of other match-ups where fanatic shines (especially if you already play with 4 bolts and 4 fire/ice).

Siding in both crypt and fanatic (and pyroclasm) against ichorid is probably overkill, no? The sideboard is already pretty tight as it is. I would rather have something that wins the mirror-match than devote 6-8 slots to ichorid...

Oh yeah, to answer the question about what red thres has to offer against combo: pyroclasm is pretty decent against goblin/zombie tokens.

[Jeremy]

Hi everyone from Jeremy!

concerning the worst matchup of ***** UGr, I think of the advantages that the new Heap Doll can give:

Vs. Landstill could stop wasteland-crugible win in early game
Vs. Wstax it could stop him to use armageddon so quickly, or keep him from using smokestack at two with God's Eye.Anyway it's non sufficient, and grudge/predator is best in this MU
Vs. Ichorid this thing is god! (>>mogg fanatic)

Other Mu's utility

Vs. Cephalid -> same as tormod, forces him to have stiffle or abeyance too as protection
Vs. Survival - > Bye, squee..
Vs. Iggy-Pop variants -> nice for targets of gotten gains
Vs. Aggro-loam or 43 lands ->Slows them up a lot to find 2nd Lftl
Vs. Mirror -> earyl game combat trick Vs. opponent's mongooses?

Vs. Goblin (it ain't a problem anyway) -> other answer to lackey

General purposes

It's a turn1 drop, with a decent ability
it gives to our Goyfs Artifact and creatures (+2/+2) just for 1 mana
It could save us from Haunting Echoes or Extirpate on discarded/removed creature

Useless Vs.

Enchantress
Solidarity (really going down)
Affinity (going down)
Burn (growing in Italian Metagame)
Faerie Stompy
Dragon Stompy
Rock

For last four decks, it means easier sideboarding

What do you think? I belive I can test a couple of in maindeck +1/2 in sb.

[Adan]

There was a better card run in Threshold long time ago: Phyrexian Furnace.

Cephalid Breakfast has got a bad matchup against NQGr anyways. If then can't resolve a Tarmogoyf, their creatures will die due to your mass of burnspells.

But in many of your scenarios, Pithing Needle can do the same or even better.

I can't really understand that this 1-Mana-Cryptkeeper gets attention and Offalsnout not (but it's still crap).

[raharu]

Crypt doesn't kill Dark Condidant or Mother of Runes (both of which will give red thresh fits if allowed to resolve) and it doesn'tanswer Lackey (although that's a marginal agrument that really shouldn't even be mentioned). It devours the combo creature pieces of Cephelid Breakfast's combo, and provides extra reach in MU's that it could matter. While Crypt is the better board card (I would just run black for Extirpate anyway because it's >>>>> Crpyt), Frostling does have it's uses and shouldn't be scoffed at. It'll slap a damper on Ichorid from turn one and give you breathing room to work with, and it swings (again, lots of magrinal content, but they are boons for it and prolly should be mentioned).

[chokin]

rd 4
paird up w/ the 3rd undefeated guy w/ chord of calling vesuvian shapeshifer dreadnaught craziness
game 1 - i had no clue what was happening or going on. He ended up sticking a fathom seer and flipping up shapeshifter to copy his draw ability. He then used eternal witness with chords of calling etc etc and eventually just put me down. He had forces and other permission with alot of big scary spells that dont get snared.

game 2 - out tempo'ed him. A couple dazes, a snare, stifled some fetches and rode a goyf.

game 3 - long and drawn out with his shapeshifter copying eternal witness to bring back solid cards. Eventually he copied into naught and killed me

Wait. Vesuvan Shapeshifter...copying Eternal Witness...does nothing, amirite? I think you played Mandorissem from the MTG.com forums. Arrogant jerk seems to think he's broken the format with his invincible deck.

Anyways, grats on your finish.

Heap Doll is junk. Doesn't Crypt do this job for free? Frostling < Mogg Fanatic. If you're concerned with Mom and Bob, Pyroclasm does nicely and Fire//Ice is a nice card for x/1s.

[Adan]

Crypt doesn't kill Dark Condidant or Mother of Runes (both of which will give red thresh fits if allowed to resolve) and it doesn'tanswer Lackey (although that's a marginal agrument that really shouldn't even be mentioned).

SRSLY, if you can't handle THOSE when running RED, you are doing something wrong. You have 4 Spell Snares, 4 Bolts, 4 Fire//Ice, 4 FoW and maybe 2 Engineered Explosives, IF you play them over Bounce.

It devours the combo creature pieces of Cephelid Breakfast's combo, and provides extra reach in MU's that it could matter.

Cephalid Breakfast is an easy matchup and Tormod's Crypt does EXACLTY the same, really, EXACTLY the same thing as you had described in your scenario.

While Crypt is the better board card (I would just run black for Extirpate anyway because it's >>>>> Crypt), Frostling does have it's uses and shouldn't be scoffed at.

Frostling... WTF?!

It'll slap a damper on Ichorid from turn one and give you breathing room to work with, and it swings (again, lots of magrinal content, but they are boons for it and prolly should be mentioned).

Tormod's Crypt also does. I found that card interesting as well, because it's a creature that can remove 1-4 Bridges and X (X being a Dredger, Ichorid, Cabal Therapy, Dread Return or whatsoever).

But Tormod's Crypt removes EVERYTHING at the same time. So, running Tormod's Crypt is still the best way for Red to deal with Fuckorid and co.

If you are afraid of Ichorid, play the black splash since it has got the best matchup against Ichorid of all Threshold variants.

[arsenalpow]

UGR should do well against breakfast, especially with all the sideboard hate you can bring in, however sometimes combo can just get there with counter backup and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it.

But those other 7/10 times you will crush them.

[raharu]

SRSLY, if you can't handle THOSE when running RED, you are doing something wrong. You have 4 Spell Snares, 4 Bolts, 4 Fire//Ice, 4 FoW and maybe 2 Engineered Explosives, IF you play them over Bounce.

True, but to say you're always going to have an answer before they stick around for a turn is a little presumptious, no? It's not that hard, but MoR is a pain in the ass for any thresh build.

Cephalid Breakfast is an easy matchup and Tormod's Crypt does EXACLTY the same, really, EXACTLY the same thing as you had described in your scenario.

So Crypt has a Lava Dart built in that triggers on reseluotion, which stops them from setting up by keeping thier creatures in hand? Damn, I need to learn to read cards more often...

Frostling... WTF?!

Why is being a Goblin such a plus in a non-gblin deck? Same card, just not a goblin.

Tormod's Crypt also does. I found that card interesting as well, because it's a creature that can remove 1-4 Bridges and X (X being a Dredger, Ichorid, Cabal Therapy, Dread Return or whatsoever).

But Tormod's Crypt removes EVERYTHING at the same time. So, running Tormod's Crypt is still the best way for Red to deal with Fuckorid and co.

If you are afraid of Ichorid, play the black splash since it has got the best matchup against Ichorid of all Threshold variants.

I can't play a deck without black, so I guess it's a moot point because I'd have Extirpate in the board anyway :P

[Adan]

True, but to say you're always going to have an answer before they stick around for a turn is a little presumptious, no? It's not that hard, but MoR is a pain in the ass for any thresh build.

So Crypt has a Lava Dart built in that triggers on reseluotion, which stops them from setting up by keeping thier creatures in hand? Damn, I need to learn to read cards more often...

Why is being a Goblin such a plus in a non-gblin deck? Same card, just not a goblin.

I can't play a deck without black, so I guess it's a moot point because I'd have Extirpate in the board anyway :P

I mentioned 16 answers which can additionally found by cantrips. Mother of Runes and Dark Confidant therefore can't be an argument for running such crappy cards to overkill.

I don't understand that part about Lava Dart, but Crypt is for free and still removes everything while you can burn aways their creatures and you can spare your mana for Spell Snare backup or Stifle. The manadenial plan is very very useful of you can keep Aether Vial off the table.

Why is being a Goblin a plus? What? The difference between Mogg Fanatic and Frostling is that Mogg Fanatic can ping players as well. Frostling can't. RTFC...

[Citrus-God]

I can't play a deck without black, so I guess it's a moot point because I'd have Extirpate in the board anyway :P

It's a mistake to run Extirpate over Yixlid Jailer in the Ichorid match-up.

[Adan]

It's a mistake to run Extirpate over Yixlid Jailer in the Ichorid match-up...

... because there are too many cards that have to be shut off simultaneously. Jailer does it, Extirpate can just pick one of many.

He's right.

[chokin]

Jailer is awesome against Ichorid. Extirpate is alright against Ichorid. But Extirpate is better against many other decks, while Yixid Jailer has a much more limited use IMO. I suppose it could be used against decks running Loam, Genesis, Dread Return. But Extirpating a freakin Force of Will or Counterbalance or ThreatX is undeniably kick ass.

Wait. Isn't this the UGR forum? Lol. Are people gonna be doing UGbr now? Just wondering.

"Frostling...WTF?!" I was thinking the same thing, only trying to be nicer :P

[arsenalpow]

I wanted to run a UGbr list but i couldn't figure out how to squeeze in the thoughtseizes. White is only useful for plow and maybe enforcer. I think black is almost necessary lately as thoughtseize is such a solid play turn 1

[raharu]

I wanted to run a UGbr list but i couldn't figure out how to squeeze in the thoughtseizes. White is only useful for plow and maybe enforcer. I think black is almost necessary lately as thoughtseize is such a solid play turn 1

Perhaps it's viable to use red as the secondary splash for just Terminate (Lightning Bolt is great, but it doesn't kill everything and takes MD space)? I guess it would look something like this (sidenote: this is a really fast, rough draft):

lands: 18

Creatures: 12
Nimble Mongoose x4
Tarmogoyf x4
Dark Confidant x4

Spells: 30
Sensei's Divining Top x3
Ponder x4
Brainstorm x4
Daze x4
Counterbalance x3
Force of Will x4
Thoughtseize x4
Terminate x4

It's a rather square list, packed to the point that Lightning Bolts/ Dragons/ [Fire/Ice] don't have any space to squeeze in. You could shave in places t fit some of them in, but I like the list as it is, with lots of 4-ofs and the few 3-ofs being unwanted in multipuls.

@ Frostling: Facepalm. So much for my badass foil set of them .

[arsenalpow]

I still don't think confidant is the correct play in a deck that runs force of will. In fact in my tourney report i didn't state it, but the game where i beat the chord of calling/shapeshifter deck he flipped up force of will with confidant which severly accelerated the clock i had on him. Had he not flipped up that FoW for 5 damage he might have been able to find an answer.

I just feel that it is probably too risky. Stating that, here is a possible solution

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Tombstalker

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Terminate

4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize

3 Counterbalance

3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island

This might be a little too land light but im sure it can be tweaked.

[raharu]

Outside of Extirpate and Engineered Plague in the board, Dark Confidnt is almost the entire reason you would want to be playing black (Thoughtseize). Cutting it for a threat that shrinks the rest of your board (Tombstalker) isn't really that optimal. If you're in a match that you don't feel comfortable with the life loss from Confidant, then wait until you draw/ cantrip a top before you lay it. The card advantage that it provides is too much to ignore.