[Deck] Fetchland Tendrils

[Mental]

Honestly, I just tested the new version against DStompy and got crushed. Game 1 he goes first and drops Chalice@1. I can't SDT or Ponder, and he drops RPDragon. Then he Seething Songs, Jitte, Win.

Game 2 I go first and drop Top. He play 3Sphere and I don't have a Mystical in Response. Then he play Chalice @1 the next turn, then Gathan Raiders.

This MU seemed close to unwinnable preboard.

Basically, the faster version was better in the Dragon Stompy MU.

[Shriekmaw]

I didn't really want to get into an argument over the new version, but it seems very slow compared to the original list. I just believe you give up too much in order for consistency. This is a combo deck and should stay that way.

Honestly, Sensei's Divining Top does not belong in a combo deck where you want to win as fast as possible. Its just too mana heavy in a deck that doesn't run enough lands to fully utilize it. You already run cards such as mystical tutor, brainstorm, ponder, and street wraiths in order to draw cards necessary to win.

Here is the Iggy Pop list that I've been running to good success so far.

IGGY POP

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
1 Plains
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Street Wraith
4 Orim’s Chant
3 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Tendrils of Agony
2 Ponder
1 Infernal Contract
1 Echoing Truth

SB

1 Wipe Away
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Extirpate
2 Abeyance
3 Krosan Grip
4 Leyline of the Void

[emidln]

I didn't really want to get into an argument over the new version, but it seems very slow compared to the original list. I just believe you give up too much in order for consistency. This is a combo deck and should stay that way.

There is nothing that isn't comboish about my new list. I can still combo out early against aggro (and sometimes against control given the right hand and appropriate signals from my opponent), but more match wins are generated by waiting until I know that I can win through countermagic than simply hoping they don't have more than one Force of Will and one Daze.

Honestly, Sensei's Divining Top does not belong in a combo deck where you want to win as fast as possible. Its just too mana heavy in a deck that doesn't run enough lands to fully utilize it. You already run cards such as mystical tutor, brainstorm, ponder, and street wraiths in order to draw cards necessary to win.

Nothing kills you before turn 4 except decks that are susceptible to Orim's Chant and Abeyance. This means the turn 3-4 goldfish that the SDT version normally has sufficient to race the metagame, while being consistent, and even considering that it plays as the control deck in the combo mirror. Street Wraith isn't run in the SDT versions as SDT does nearly the same thing as Street Wraith while allowing for better mana utilization until the combo turn. Paying 1 colorless at some point before you cast Mystical Tutor has actually proven better than paying 2 life the turn that you play Mystical Tutor in my testing. It has allowed me to essentially keep extra cards in hand for my combo turn, even after using LED. I think the issue that some people are having with SDT is that they are activating it every turn instead of doing other stuff. When I've been playing it, I only activate the look at top 3 ability when I am digging for land or have spare mana that I wouldn't otherwise use. To me it's pay 1, then draw a card later with a nice bonus.

[GreenOne]

I didn't really want to get into an argument over the new version, but it seems very slow compared to the original list. I just believe you give up too much in order for consistency. This is a combo deck and should stay that way.

I did not test (yet) Doomsday in the deck, but without it I found the SDT underwhelming too. Maybe that (as emidln said) I'm playing them the wrong way, but I found them a problem when facing fast aggro (Burn, Goyf Sligh, Domain Zoo and partially goblins, etc).
The main problem that I face when playing a 1-petal 0-Wraith deck is that i can't reach threshold fast enough. And between Death Wish, Draw 4s and Doomsdays if the opponent is playing some burn it could happen that we have to chant him in order to do stuff in our turn.

Long story short, the deck is gaining an advantage vs control and aggrocontrol, but it's losing part of its speed. Someone says that the deck is too much LED dependant, but the way the deck was built (less lands, street wraiths, petals) the deck could easily combo out with cabal ritual, depleting its entire hand and going hellbent for IT on turn 3.
Obv this means it was more grave dependant, but we had plenty of ways to work out the grave hate (Beatdown plan, double tendrils, ETW, bounce, Abeyance, Serenity).

Are the SDT+lands-petals changes worth it or are them just a meta choice?

I love those cards, but are the Doomsday and LDV worth it or just the danger of cool things?

The deck is changing a lot and too rapidly, we probably need a good testing session, including the aggro decks again.

PS. Emidln, would you please post the latest list? I'd like to have some testing once I got some spare time.

[BreathWeapon]

I haven't been impressed with the Lotus Petal(less) and Sensei's Divining Top lists at all, the entire deck gets run over by Goblin Lackey a lot, and slowing down to turn 4 doesn't improve the control aggro/control match ups enough to warrant weakening the Goblins match up. The control decks will just adapt to bring in permanent based hate and then use the additional turns for building a counter wall to protect them.

I am beating the living shit out of these lists with every Tier 1/Tier 1.5 blue deck except Landstill, maybe it's on account of having an intimate knowledge of Storm combo, but I seriously think you guys need to figure out that you can't just play some LED based control deck past turn 3. People are too paranoid about counter walls, it's the Counterbalances, Meddling Mages, Gaddock Teegs, Trinisphere, Chalice of the Void and Arcane Laboratories that are going to kill you.

[emidln]

I am beating the living shit out of these lists with every Tier 1/Tier 1.5 blue deck except Landstill, maybe it's on account of having an intimate knowledge of Storm combo, but I seriously think you guys need to figure out that you can't just play some LED based control deck past turn 3. People are too paranoid about counter walls, it's the Counterbalances, Meddling Mages, Gaddock Teegs, Trinisphere, Chalice of the Void and Arcane Laboratories that are going to kill you.

That's funny, I beat every Tier 1/1.5 blue deck including landstill with my Doomsday list. Perhaps it's something to do with knowing the ins and outs of my deck, as well as knowing what decks can field what hate and boarding appropriately. Maybe it's mulliganing decisions. Perhaps it's incredibly luck over a few hundred games. In any event, I have no issue at all with Mage, Teeg, 3sphere, Chalice, CB, or any other permanent-basd hate. I'd suggest learning the deck better because without specific scenarios I can't really recommend anything else.

Beating lackey isn't hard at all. It's even less of an issue on the draw than on the play because you know from the outset to play more aggressively. Doomsday can win very fast if it knows there is no counter-based hate, and setting up Infernal + LED has never been very difficult.

As a side note, if anyone who thinks their control deck has a good FT matchup would like to play me, I'd be happy dissuade them of their delusions over MWS.

[Jak]

I would like to see this done. I don't want to sound rude because I know that you are an awesome player, but I just don't see this deck being able to beat all the shit in the world. I playtested one game against DS and dropped a fetch, he goes first turn blood moon. I then have only a blue source the rest of the game. I fail to see how you have the awesome MUs. I would love for you to prove me wrong though, so I really want to see Threshold and Landstill go against this. I just think it is about the same as TES.

[Mental]

I would like to see this done. I don't want to sound rude because I know that you are an awesome player, but I just don't see this deck being able to beat all the shit in the world. I playtested one game against DS and dropped a fetch, he goes first turn blood moon. I then have only a blue source the rest of the game. I fail to see how you have the awesome MUs. I would love for you to prove me wrong though, so I really want to see Threshold and Landstill go against this. I just think it is about the same as TES.

I don't agree with most of EmidIns changes, but I have to say DS isn't a hard MU. In the faster version, at least, you just go turn 1 Chant them, Turn 2 win. Alternatively, Mystical Tutor --> Death Wish --> Serenity or Mystical Tutor --> Wipe Away works.

I've went back up to a 3/1 Petal/Fetch Split. Petals add so much to this deck, giving you Thresh for Cabal Rit, fixing mana, and building Storm. However, I like 15 lands more than I like 14.

I've cut top for Street Wraith. Threshold is just so strong in this deck, as is going off early in a lot of MUs. That's why I play 4 BS, 4 Ponder, and 4 Wraith.

I'm still running 1 Doomsday/1 IGG. This was the good thing that came out of these changes for me - realizing that this deck could function with one IGG. I like Doomsday more as an alternative wincon than building the deck around it (or even, semi-around it).

[Jaiminho]

I did not test (yet) Doomsday in the deck, but without it I found the SDT underwhelming too. Maybe that (as emidln said) I'm playing them the wrong way, but I found them a problem when facing fast aggro (Burn, Goyf Sligh, Domain Zoo and partially goblins, etc).

SDT usually should never be played over a better and more effect cantrip, since it will cost you some speed. On extremely fast games, it might just be a bad SW or a non-shuffling Ponder, but it will allow you to go off with Doomsday in case you really need. Against aggro you play like Iggy Pop, anyway.

I love those cards, but are the Doomsday and LDV worth it or just the danger of cool things?

As I said already, SW/Ponder/Draw4/Brainstorm made LDV a pretty awsome tutor. SDT doesn't help as much as SW, but you still can get two cards from that pile, which is usually your goal, and win off immediately. The deck's redundancy is the key for this card to work. I'll try to fit those 2 in the deck again and see what happens.


emidln, how was your LDV testing?

[Jak]

I don't agree with most of EmidIns changes, but I have to say DS isn't a hard MU. In the faster version, at least, you just go turn 1 Chant them, Turn 2 win. Alternatively, Mystical Tutor --> Death Wish --> Serenity or Mystical Tutor --> Wipe Away works.

I've went back up to a 3/1 Petal/Fetch Split. Petals add so much to this deck, giving you Thresh for Cabal Rit, fixing mana, and building Storm. However, I like 15 lands more than I like 14.

I've cut top for Street Wraith. Threshold is just so strong in this deck, as is going off early in a lot of MUs. That's why I play 4 BS, 4 Ponder, and 4 Wraith.

I'm still running 1 Doomsday/1 IGG. This was the good thing that came out of these changes for me - realizing that this deck could function with one IGG. I like Doomsday more as an alternative wincon than building the deck around it (or even, semi-around it).

That was just an example from the one time I played it. Getting screwed like that happens. I just think he is overrating his deck.

[emidln]

SDT usually should never be played over a better and more effect cantrip, since it will cost you some speed. On extremely fast games, it might just be a bad SW or a non-shuffling Ponder, but it will allow you to go off with Doomsday in case you really need. Against aggro you play like Iggy Pop, anyway.

All you really need to do against aggro is get Doomsday and LED in hand, and Sensei's Top on the table with mana to cast Doomsday and you win the game. It's pretty simple actually, and completely ignores Leyline. I turn turn 2 like this frequently.

emidln, how was your LDV testing?

It's been okay. Like, it's not visibly better or worse than Mystical Tutor across the board. I don't know if I would want more than 2 of them, and I think I really want my 4th Mystical back.

[Jaiminho]

All you really need to do against aggro is get Doomsday and LED in hand, and Sensei's Top on the table with mana to cast Doomsday and you win the game. It's pretty simple actually, and completely ignores Leyline. I turn turn 2 like this frequently.

You only need Doomsday if you see some hate, but, still, yes, Doomsday > IGG. BTW, what I said about SDT is valid on the fast aggro match up only.

It's been okay. Like, it's not visibly better or worse than Mystical Tutor across the board. I don't know if I would want more than 2 of them, and I think I really want my 4th Mystical back.

I'm replacing the 4th Ponder and what would be Doomsday 2 or IGG 2 for 2 LDV.

[GreenOne]

Is doomsday worth running in a 0 SDT version?

[Mental]

Is doomsday worth running in a 0 SDT version?

In my experience, it's still strong. SW can do the same thing when going off a lot of the time, and serve the same function in DDay piles.

I wouldn't run 2 Doomsday though, probably 1 is stronger.

[emidln]

You only need Doomsday if you see some hate, but, still, yes, Doomsday > IGG. BTW, what I said about SDT is valid on the fast aggro match up only.

No, Doomsday is good without hate. It's an instant win if you can cast it, have top, and then have 3 black left. You just flat out win the game. It's really easy to setup against aggro, which is why I mentioned it.

I'm replacing the 4th Ponder and what would be Doomsday 2 or IGG 2 for 2 LDV.

That was the list I was testing. I was playing 1 IGG, 1 DDay, 3 Ponder, 2 LDV, 2 Tendrils, 4 Top.

@ GreenOne

I'm not sure I would run Doomsday without Top. Top makes a lot of the ridiculous come from nowhere wins possible, and it's an extra storm engine to win with a single Doomsday without recurring it. It also enables a lot of the really stupid stuff like Infernal -> Doomsday.

[Ozymandias]

So what beats this deck anyway? It seems like you guys have an answer from everything from Thresh to Dstompy to MUC to TES.

[jegger]

Greeone expresses my thoughts exactly.

I don't test yet Doomsday in the deck, because I will not go for a while to any tournament and I want to test well the version with SDT before.
In my meta I've seen that the format is slow down: many Landstill in top16. In this direction SDT is a great addon and an advantage for the deck because I can sit down on sensei+fetch for card quality with an indestructible manabase against opponent's wastelands without so many pressure on my life points.
The disavantage is that SW can give to the deck a little bit speed against fast decks like aggro, ichorid & combo with its interaction at CC0 with mystical and a fast threshold for cabal ritual.
I'm seeing if the tradeoff SDT vs SW is good enough in these days.

I'm still playing with petals maindeck, but I'm trying also the version with 17-lands, without Petals. This is a further improvement against landstill because I don't play a suboptimal card like Petal against this matchup and I can play finally Mystic Remora in SB also in Legacy.
Without Petal the disavantages are against fast decks, I'm not sure that the tradeoff in this case is so good. Petals helps to rip the match, fast threshold,...At this point I build a threshold with cantrip, CB, LED, rituals, ToA and tutors. naah, I want a fast deck, with these changes we risk to slow down to much the deck and we haven't in every matchup an Orim in hand to steal a turn.

I've seen that the worst hate, we can meet, is Orim's Chant. What are your answers? Extirpate on first opponent's Chant And then my Chant ftw?
I'm thinking to insert again Pacts in SB, but perhaps Extirpate is more versatile, Pact is dead if we don't start the combo.

As a side note, if anyone who thinks their control deck has a good FT matchup would like to play me, I'd be happy dissuade them of their delusions over MWS.

If you want, my Solution deck is waiting for a matchup with you.

The deck is changing a lot and too rapidly, we probably need a good testing session, including the aggro decks again.

I'm also thinking the same. I'm a conservative player.

So what beats this deck anyway? It seems like you guys have an answer from everything from Thresh to Dstompy to MUC to TES.

Yeah, I'm asking to me if you play against goofy.
Or I'm a bad player (probably) because I lose some matchups with this deck.

[GreenOne]

So what beats this deck anyway? It seems like you guys have an answer from everything from Thresh to Dstompy to MUC to TES.

Itnot like the deck is winning versus everything. It just have a chance against everything like Threshold decks do. Sure, threshold is not a positive machup, but you can get close to an ok percentage like 40% win. It's not that bad for your bad matchups isn't it? :)

It obvioulsy depends a lot on the playskill of both players however. That's why I don't like much matchup analysys done with % numbers.

[Mental]

Itnot like the deck is winning versus everything. It just have a chance against everything like Threshold decks do. Sure, threshold is not a positive machup, but you can get close to an ok percentage like 40% win. It's not that bad for your bad matchups isn't it? :)

It obvioulsy depends a lot on the playskill of both players however. That's why I don't like much matchup analysys done with % numbers.

Not true. Thrash is about even, because they only run FoW to stop Chant.

CB Thresh isn't even that bad, unless it's UBG.

EDIT: But Top helps that.

I just tested with EmidIn and came away thoroughly convinced that his new list is strong. It can easily race Aggro - he stomped me playing Goblins, going off a turn before I could win consistently, without having to use Chant, and we went 1-1 when I played UGR Thrash. The time he lost was because of a mistake (I guess that we all make them).

[Muradin]

So actually I am really attracted to this deck as I like playing combo in general and there is a lot of discussion with innovations in this thread. So before building it I'd like to have a "stable list" to test with, so that I can make sure I am able to pilot the deck. Is the version with Senseis Divining Top and Doomsday the general accepted one or is this just something very cool you are trying out?

Then I still have some questions:
(Why) is Death Dish good in this deck?
When do I board Extirpate in?(Except against Ichorid for example)
What is the Doomsday pile winning against graveyard hate?
Why are 2 Doomsday needed?
Until now I didn't like Cabal Ritual very much in the newer builds as I often couldn't get 7 cards in my graveyard by the time I tried to go of, am I just playing it wrong?