[Deck] Fetchland Tendrils

[GreenOne]

On another note and sry for the double post:

Did anyone test E.Explosives in the 17 lands configuration?

Being castable for 3 mana it's harder to hit with CounterBalance than Serenity and takes care of pesky Goyfs, Geese and Confidants.
It's also good in the Belcher/Ichorid matchup.

The real problem EE had is that it was too slow and needed a more stable manabase. Now that the deck is slowing down/added lands to fit the meta better, it needs to be reconsidered.

[emidln]

On another note and sry for the double post:

Did anyone test E.Explosives in the 17 lands configuration?

Being castable for 3 mana it's harder to hit with CounterBalance than Serenity and takes care of pesky Goyfs, Geese and Confidants.
It's also good in the Belcher/Ichorid matchup.

The real problem EE had is that it was too slow and needed a more stable manabase. Now that the deck is slowing down/added lands to fit the meta better, it needs to be reconsidered.

It's definitely worth the consideration. I doubt it can take the place of Serenity (Serenity is for a different set of matchups), but it could be useful in the board. I'll test it.

[Bryant Cook]

Is EE worth it? Seems kind of slow, 4 mana to kill a card with a manacost of 2. Which would only make the deck slower, it's already slow enough as is.

[Cait_Sith]

I must concur. If you need a consistent way of dealing with nasty enchantments and EE cannot cut it there. There are enough enchantments that shut down this deck that a card like Serenity would be a much better idea.

With your number of lands, could EE even reliably deal with something as simple as tokens from Empty the Warrens? I am not so sure, since you would need EE and 2 land in your opening hand. Seems like a tight squeeze in most cases, because an aggressive mulligan for it will deny you one needed part or the other.

[BreathWeapon]

I don't mind Engineered Explosives, it hits Counterbalance, Meddling Mage and Tarmogoyf while circumventing both Counterbalance and Spellsnare, so you're definitely getting your money's worth out of the card even if it is really slow.

Not removing Chalce @ 0 is kind of a bummer tho'.

[emidln]

I must concur. If you need a consistent way of dealing with nasty enchantments and EE cannot cut it there. There are enough enchantments that shut down this deck that a card like Serenity would be a much better idea.

With your number of lands, could EE even reliably deal with something as simple as tokens from Empty the Warrens? I am not so sure, since you would need EE and 2 land in your opening hand. Seems like a tight squeeze in most cases, because an aggressive mulligan for it will deny you one needed part or the other.

Or a black-producing land and a dark ritual. Or you could keep a hand that doesn't need EE because it has chant + 2 lands, an early combo, or tutor for etruth. EE would not be the only solution, but it would allow for a wider array of options.

[Dark_Cynic87]

EE seems unnecessary at best. You already run 4x Serenity, Rushing River, Echoing Truth. Some builds run K. Grip, and all have a Wipe Away maindecked with 8 tutors plus a Death Wish in some/most builds. You don't need EE against Thresh critters, as you shouldn't lose to thresh. You have Chants against counterspells and against EtW. Just timewalk over them and combo off for the win; you can do this because if they EtW, you can know that they aren't running counterspells. What I haven't heard is how the matchups against Landstill are. I'm wondering about UW, UWb, UWx and 4-color Landstill. I see no Landstill in my area, and I don't really know about it's matchup and sb options. I'm guessing it's a lot like playing against Thresh. Chant your way to combo-city.

Has anyone had a problem against Ichorid? I got pwned (yeah...I know...) by a guy with his ichorid build games 2 and 3 no thanks to his SB'ed Sundering Titan...I just couldn't hit an Extirpate fast enough...I suppose that was just bad luck. I boarded both in. Figured I'd hit it soon enough. He hits Titan turn 2 in the MIDDLE of comboing off. I lose lands, he gets out 9 zombies and the stupid Titan, but no Flame-Kin. Passes the turn. I'm landless as I had a tundra and a Scrub out. I Petal into a Ponder, and don't catch a land. I shuffle and draw, hit 'Pate. Too bad, I lose. I'm certain he had a god hand. This was a rediculous game. Game 3 was a play error on my part...stupid.

I'll post my build soon enough. I have it, but not with me...I've been doing very well with it. I pulled this Doomsday pile off the other day:

turn 3:

have Top, Tundra, USea, Swamp out.
hand:
Dark Rit
Dark Rit
C. Rit
C. Rit
LED
Chant
IT

5x Cards in GY (mix of fetches, Ponder, and I think even a M. Tutor).

Tundra into Chant. Resolves...whoa.
Swamp into Rit Rit C. Rit C. Rit and drop an LED. This puts me at 10 black mana and LED. Play IT, popping LED for BBB. Now I have 12 black mana in my pool, and I grab DD. Play it leaving 9 black mana in my pool, grabbing Bargain, LED, LED, Wish, Tendrils. Tap Top draw bargain, bargain (6B left in pool) into Top, LED, LED, Wish. Drop top for 5 mana left, play double LED, play wish with 2 black mana left, pop LEDs for 8 left, Wish grabs Tendrils. Play it with 13 storm copies for 28 lifegain/loss, tap top, Double Tendrils for some serious freakin' overkill.

I wanted to ask if a singleton E. Tutor would be any use for grabbing tops? After boarding it can also grab Serenity...I don't use this very often, but if you have a top out already, you can put another on top of your library and build up storm that way also with it. It would even help those of you who chose to run EE. M. Tutor into E. Tutor, E. Tutor into Top/LED/Serenity/EE...it's something to think about I suppose.

Pce,

--DC

[Jaiminho]

M. Tutor into E. Tutor, E. Tutor into Top/LED/Serenity/EE...it's something to think about I suppose.

That is some serious card disadvantage. If you want to play something to fetch stuff other than instants and sorceries, use some Lim-Dul's Vaults.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Clearly I was dillusional at the time of posting that...meh. With all the chatter of LDV, I still had my head so far up my rear-end that I posted that nonsense...

Wow.

Pce,

--DC

[BreathWeapon]

"Shouldn't have a problem against Threshold" is a fucking joke, UGW Threshold with Counterbalances and Meddling Mages has to be one of the deck's worst possible match ups, and you should take anything you can get that can deal with Threshold's entire board.

TES has Vexing Shusher and I wouldn't go around bragging that we shouldn't have a problem against Threshold, that match up is always going to be difficult for Storm combo, and statements like this are one of the reasons FT players look so incredibly dishonest when they talk about their deck.

[Nihil Credo]

What I haven't heard is how the matchups against Landstill are. I'm wondering about UW, UWb, UWx and 4-color Landstill. I see no Landstill in my area, and I don't really know about it's matchup and sb options. I'm guessing it's a lot like playing against Thresh. Chant your way to combo-city.

I did quite a bit of testing with emidln in the last few days, playing the standard German UWb list. Game 1 is highly draw-dependant, mostly in FT's favour: draw creature control and definitely lose, draw lots of counterspells and probably win. Postboard (with Landstill siding Extirpates and Mages, and FT siding mage-kill, Abeyances, and Extirpate) there are no favourites: every game we've played could have seen its outcome changed very easily, except for those where one player got mana-screwed and therefore unable to put up a serious counter-fight (Wasteland is quite brutal in this matchup)

Oh, and about this:

you shouldn't lose to thresh

we didn't yet test the matchup as much, but my pet UGB Thresh list (MD 3 Spell Snares and Dazes, 1 Needle, SB 3 Thoughtseizes and Extirpate, no Stifles or Waste) is 6-0 vs. the same FT build as above, with most games not being close i.e. I had leftover countermagic after winning.

[Brehn]

So I was one of those who thought that emidln's last list (page 14) was too slow. I've goldfished a little bit (about 70 hands):

Average goldfish turn: 3.84
Won until turn 3: 45.3 %
Won until turn 4: 76.6%
Won until turn 5: 93.8%

Mulligan to 5 or less: 4.7%
Average goldfish turn: 4.33 (!)

Win via
Ill-Gotten Gains 50.9% - average turn 3.28
Doomsday 42.1% - average turn 4.39
Double Tendrils 3.5% - average turn 4.50
Cruel Bargain 3.5% - average turn 5.00

Most savage plays:
- Turn 2 Chant-protected win.
- Turn 3 win after mull to 4.

While it's absolutely not true that decisions like playing Doomsday and no Petals slow down the deck's goldfish ability too much (although it's clearly visible that Doomsday is a slow wincondition), I'm still concerned: there was one single game where I could win via Doomsday without a Top on the table. Question - as I haven't tested this list against actual opponents at all: How devastating is Needle on Top for this list? How often do you have to get rid of it before going off? To what extent does it disrupt your ability to set up? Also, what would you rather like to see on your opponent's turn 1 - Leyline of the Void or Pithing Needle naming Top? And how does this decision depend on the aggressivity of the opponent's deck?

[emidln]

we didn't yet test the matchup as much, but my pet UGB Thresh list (MD 3 Spell Snares and Dazes, 1 Needle, SB 3 Thoughtseizes and Extirpate, no Stifles or Waste) is 6-0 vs. the same FT build as above, with most games not being close i.e. I had leftover countermagic after winning.

I think that 1 Needle was 4-0 in blowouts and UGB Thresh was 2-0 in close games. There was no way to deal with Needle on Top in g1. Unfortunately, you had a knack of hitting it 2 turns before I needed to go off off.

[Bryant Cook]

I think that 1 Needle was 4-0 in blowouts and UGB Thresh was 2-0 in close games. There was no way to deal with Needle on Top in g1. Unfortunately, you had a knack of hitting it 2 turns before I needed to go off off.

Am I reading this correctly? Fetchland Tendrils lost a match 2-0, is that even possible? Maybe he wouldn't of hit it 2 turns before if the clock was sped up.

[calosso]

I don't think this deck is very good if it cannot beat a single Pithing needle. Maybe you should not try to be so crafty with divining top and doomsday and become a more streamline combo deck.

[kicks_422]

I agree. It was fine with Street Wraiths, Petals, etc... SDT and Doomsday offer a lot of options, but I'd rather have less options if it would mean a faster clock.

[Jaiminho]

You don't need to go for the Doomsday way, you know... There is always double Chant for lots of storm or even IGG. Without the Doomsday kill in mind, the deck is just like it was before, since we (I, at least) never needed or should use 2 IGG against control.

[Mental]

I agree. It was fine with Street Wraiths, Petals, etc... SDT and Doomsday offer a lot of options, but I'd rather have less options if it would mean a faster clock.

I'd like to know why. I see a lot of people posting things like this in this thread, basically saying, Fast Clock = Good. The logic behind FT, however, is not to have a fast clock but to have a fast set up. You start off with a hand filled with Cantrips/Set up spells, and the idea is to be able to get to a place where you can go off undisrupted faster than Thresh can kill you, but not necessarily ASAP. The questions in the Thresh match are:
1) What turn will they kill you?
2) Can you set up faster than they can get their counterspells online, and get answers to Counterbalance?

While, if I was playing TES, the questions would be:
1) Do they have FoW?
2) Am I on the play?
3) Do they have Daze/Stifle if I'm not on the play.
4) Is CBalance in play? If so, and it's postboard, I lose.

Not to say either deck is bad. Their both very strong, but in different ways.

[Jak]

I'd like to know why. I see a lot of people posting things like this in this thread, basically saying, Fast Clock = Good. The logic behind FT, however, is not to have a fast clock but to have a fast set up. You start off with a hand filled with Cantrips/Set up spells, and the idea is to be able to get to a place where you can go off undisrupted faster than Thresh can kill you, but not necessarily ASAP. The questions in the Thresh match are:
1) What turn will they kill you?
2) Can you set up faster than they can get their counterspells online, and get answers to Counterbalance?

While, if I was playing TES, the questions would be:
1) Do they have FoW?
2) Am I on the play?
3) Do they have Daze/Stifle if I'm not on the play.
4) Is CBalance in play? If so, and it's postboard, I lose.

Not to say either deck is bad. Their both very strong, but in different ways.

There are more decks in the format than Thresh. When you make the deck slower to increase one MU that is still not that great , you weaken other MUs like aggro (goblins, sligh, etc) and combo.

TES still runs Chant and has plenty of ways to find it. It can easily go offbefore Chant. Also, postboard means Shusher and it is not a definite loss. Even preboard, burning wish for tranquility still works. Hopefully we don't get in that situation because the deck is fast.

I think you weaken the deck more thatn strengthen it by making it slower. You give thresh more time to set up. It just doesn't seem logical to make the deck slowersoyou can answer more hate. Why not make it faster, answer less hate because it won't be there, and have winnable MUs against other decks?

[Mental]

There are more decks in the format than Thresh. When you make the deck slower to increase one MU that is still not that great , you weaken other MUs like aggro (goblins, sligh, etc) and combo.

TES still runs Chant and has plenty of ways to find it. It can easily go offbefore Chant. Also, postboard means Shusher and it is not a definite loss. Even preboard, burning wish for tranquility still works. Hopefully we don't get in that situation because the deck is fast.

I think you weaken the deck more thatn strengthen it by making it slower. You give thresh more time to set up. It just doesn't seem logical to make the deck slowersoyou can answer more hate. Why not make it faster, answer less hate because it won't be there, and have winnable MUs against other decks?

In general I agree. I think FT's problem right now is that it is way off balance. The pendulum has swung too far to the extended set up. This deck needs to strike an equilibrium between set up/going off before they have answers, so that you can locate the time where you have the most protection in proportion to their answers. I think FT is at the point where, at the time you go off, you have a lot of protection, but Thresh also has a lot of answers. Incidentally, you'll also be at pretty low life at this point in the new builds, which gives you even less maneuverability.