[Discussion] What is the best current combo deck?

[Arsenal]

I thought it was UGw Thresh being tested? Where a UGwb version come into play?

[Bryant Cook]

Any objections before I start testing wit Freakish? Remember we decided it's the pilot's choice, Freakish is Bardo's "Proxy". Freakish chose that.

[freakish777]

I thought it was UGw Thresh being tested? Where a UGwb version come into play?

Because Thoughtseize is amazing.

[Bardo]

Any objections before I start testing wit Freakish? Remember we decided it's the pilot's choice, Freakish is Bardo's "Proxy". Freakish chose that.

Fine with me. Godspeed!

Edit. FYI - I'm unsure of all of the Vindicates in freakish777's 4c list. I'd go with EE or Pithing Needle instead and Krosan Grip over Predator in the board, but maybe that's just me.

[freakish777]

Fine with me. Godspeed!

Edit. FYI - I'm unsure of all of the Vindicates in freakish777's 4c list. I'd go with EE or Pithing Needle instead and Krosan Grip over Predator in the board, but maybe that's just me.

Grips they are for this session. I'll trust Bardo to know what he's doing. 1 Needle Main, 2 EE board.

[Bryant Cook]

Ok. We're doing 6 matches total, keeping track of the results, how each game went and both players are to save the game logs. Agreed? If MWS quits, oh well, start over. Am I missing anything?

[Bardo]

Freakish - In the main, a singleton EE is better than a singleton Needle, but that's a minor point. As a 1-of, EE is better as a random top-deck; Needle is better played pro-actively which isn't what you want out of your 1-ofs.

WastedLife - Shit's good to go. I'm curious to see how it goes. Just make sure the "who goes first" tally is fair; should be 3 each on the play and then draw.

[Jak]

Yeah, get started. Hopefully we can get the results tonight?

[Belgareth]

Yeah, get started. Hopefully we can put an end to this silly and irrelevant arguing.

Fixed.

The best combo deck is the one that let's you win on the day.
Considering metagames differ from country to country and state/county to state/county, there is no 1 best deck.

[Bryant Cook]

People don't have to read or follow the read if they don't want to. It's not stupid or irrelevant, we're determining which deck has a better blue based control match-up.

[Belgareth]

People don't have to read or follow the read if they don't want to. It's not stupid or irrelevant, we're determining which deck has a better blue based control match-up.

No your determing Who does better in those matchups.
I have played against so many people that cannot play TES properly, now as it's creator your bound to be much better.
The title is best current combo deck, and this cannot be determined without restrictions on what is meant.

Emildn claims a positive matchup against nearly everything (which given the flexibility of FT is entirely possible if you know the matchups in advance).
However if there was a Pro tour tomorrow in an imaginary location that is easy to get to for both Americans and Europeans, would the deck be able to hold positive matchups against everything there ? I doubt it.

Now at least your honest about TES's misgivings, but determining the better blue control matchup is not deciding what is the best deck.

The matchup would be interesting I agree, but all it decides is wether you or emildn does better with your respective deck in 2 matchups.

While TES and FT share a lot of cards, they play completely differently but still require many of the same decisions which come with practice and skill (which you both have).

[abbeyroad]

note that the second part of the question states which combo deck would be best in the threshold meta. It is obvious there is no such thing as an absolute best combo deck, but, I was looking for opinions that are supported with evidence. Just because you state your opinion doesn't mean that you are saying other opinions are wrong. With a mass of opinions people can decide, based on the person's evidence, on which combo deck would suit them best.

[Arsenal]

No your determing Who does better in those matchups.
I have played against so many people that cannot play TES properly, now as it's creator your bound to be much better.
The title is best current combo deck, and this cannot be determined without restrictions on what is meant.

Emildn claims a positive matchup against nearly everything (which given the flexibility of FT is entirely possible if you know the matchups in advance).
However if there was a Pro tour tomorrow in an imaginary location that is easy to get to for both Americans and Europeans, would the deck be able to hold positive matchups against everything there ? I doubt it.

Now at least your honest about TES's misgivings, but determining the better blue control matchup is not deciding what is the best deck.

The matchup would be interesting I agree, but all it decides is wether you or emildn does better with your respective deck in 2 matchups.

While TES and FT share a lot of cards, they play completely differently but still require many of the same decisions which come with practice and skill (which you both have).

Assuming both players are equally skilled with their respective decks, then it truly is determining which deck is better; not the player (again, equally skilled). Now, if it was Bryant vs. some random FT scrub that just started playing FT 2 days ago, then yeah, it would be more a display of player skill, not deck superiority. But that's not the case here, so I don't understand how you came to that conclusion.

[Jak]

No your determing Who does better in those matchups.
I have played against so many people that cannot play TES properly, now as it's creator your bound to be much better.
The title is best current combo deck, and this cannot be determined without restrictions on what is meant.

Emildn claims a positive matchup against nearly everything (which given the flexibility of FT is entirely possible if you know the matchups in advance).
However if there was a Pro tour tomorrow in an imaginary location that is easy to get to for both Americans and Europeans, would the deck be able to hold positive matchups against everything there ? I doubt it.

Now at least your honest about TES's misgivings, but determining the better blue control matchup is not deciding what is the best deck.

The matchup would be interesting I agree, but all it decides is wether you or emildn does better with your respective deck in 2 matchups.

While TES and FT share a lot of cards, they play completely differently but still require many of the same decisions which come with practice and skill (which you both have).

The games will still be productive because it will help Thresh, Landstill, and the combo players play the MUs. The arguing has not been as productive as the games that are taking place, but it will still be helpful. I is just like arguing Mental Note, Portent, Serum Visions, etc. In the end, Ponder came out and made those all just bad. Vexing Shusher did the same.

[BreathWeapon]

note that the second part of the question states which combo deck would be best in the threshold meta. It is obvious there is no such thing as an absolute best combo deck, but, I was looking for opinions that are supported with evidence. Just because you state your opinion doesn't mean that you are saying other opinions are wrong. With a mass of opinions people can decide, based on the person's evidence, on which combo deck would suit them best.

In a Threshold metagame it's TES, and in a Landstill metagame it's FT. TES is preferable against Threshold because it can go off before Counterbalance and Meddling Mage are cast, while FT is preferable against Landstill because there's no lock pieces or clocks to race.

FT is like a High Tide deck that can race aggro.

[abbeyroad]

isn't ichorid > TES vs thresh?

[Bardo]

Assuming both players are equally skilled with their respective decks, then it truly is determining which deck is better; not the player (again, equally skilled). Now, if it was Bryant vs. some random FT scrub that just started playing FT 2 days ago, then yeah, it would be more a display of player skill, not deck superiority. But that's not the case here, so I don't understand how you came to that conclusion.

I'm with Belgareth on this one. Bryant is not representative of the typical TES player and I have no idea how experienced freakish is with Thresh. Assuming equal skill with their respective decks is not realistic here; no disrespect intended for freakish here. Not that this isn't a fun exercise or doesn't have value, just that it isn't conclusive of anything.

Not to randomly plug one of my articles, but see the first appendix (the end) of my last article.

Top 8 Placements in Fourteen (14) U.S. Legacy Tournaments (40+ players**) January 1 – December 31, 2007

Threshold 1111111111111111 (16)
Vial Goblins 1111111111111 (13)
Landstill 111111111 (9)
Survival 11111111 (8)
Fish 1111111 (7)
Cephalid Breakfast 1111111 (7)
Aluren 111111 (6)
Sligh 1111 (4)
The Epic Storm (TES) 1111 (4)
Enchantress 111 (3)
Red Death 111 (3)
Zoo 111 (3)
Hulk Flash 111 (3) [BANNED!]
Angel Stompy 111 (3)
43 Land 11 (2)
Reanimator 11 (2)
Armageddon Stax 11 (2)
Gro-A-Tog 1 (2)
Mono-Red Chalice Aggro 11 (2)
B/w Deadguy Ale 1 (1)
Psychatog 1 (1)
Faerie Stompy 1 (1)
Belcher 1 (1)
Suicide Black 1 (1)
Aggro Loam 1 (1)
Ichorid 1 (1)
Affinity 1 (1)
BGW Control 1 (1)
UWB Control 1 (1)
GWB Aggro-Control 1 (1)
Other Tendrils Combo 1 (1)
CounterSliver 1 (1)
(Total: 112)

Of the TES players making the Top 8, out of all of the TES played in large US tournaments last year, Bryant accounted for 75% of those T8s. 111 of the 1111. One guy playing the same deck every chance he had.

I think kirdape said it best a couple of pages back (maybe it was this thread, not sure), I'd worry about specific players with the decks they know inside and out, not specific decks played by random players.

[BreathWeapon]

isn't ichorid > TES vs thresh?

Game 1, sure, games 2 and 3 ... you get the idea.

Comparing Storm to Dredge is pointless.

[Jak]

I'm with Belgareth on this one. Bryant is not representative of the typical TES player and I have no idea how experienced freakish is with Thresh. Assuming equal skill with their respective decks is not realistic here; no disrespect intended for freakish here. Not that this isn't a fun exercise or doesn't have value, just that it isn't conclusive of anything.

Not to randomly plug one of my articles, but see the first appendix (the end) of my last article.

Top 8 Placements in Fourteen (14) U.S. Legacy Tournaments (40+ players**) January 1 – December 31, 2007

Threshold 1111111111111111 (16)
Vial Goblins 1111111111111 (13)
Landstill 111111111 (9)
Survival 11111111 (8)
Fish 1111111 (7)
Cephalid Breakfast 1111111 (7)
Aluren 111111 (6)
Sligh 1111 (4)
The Epic Storm (TES) 1111 (4)
Enchantress 111 (3)
Red Death 111 (3)
Zoo 111 (3)
Hulk Flash 111 (3) [BANNED!]
Angel Stompy 111 (3)
43 Land 11 (2)
Reanimator 11 (2)
Armageddon Stax 11 (2)
Gro-A-Tog 1 (2)
Mono-Red Chalice Aggro 11 (2)
B/w Deadguy Ale 1 (1)
Psychatog 1 (1)
Faerie Stompy 1 (1)
Belcher 1 (1)
Suicide Black 1 (1)
Aggro Loam 1 (1)
Ichorid 1 (1)
Affinity 1 (1)
BGW Control 1 (1)
UWB Control 1 (1)
GWB Aggro-Control 1 (1)
Other Tendrils Combo 1 (1)
CounterSliver 1 (1)
(Total: 112)

Of the TES players making the Top 8, out of all of the TES played in large US tournaments last year, Bryant accounted for 75% of those T8s. 111 of the 1111. One guy playing the same deck every chance he had.

I think kirdape said it best a couple of pages back (maybe it was this thread, not sure), I'd worry about specific players with the decks they know inside and out, not specific decks played by random players.

But aren't we looking for which deck is better? Not the pilot? So if Bryant can play the deck the best, he should represent the deck. Same for Emidln. The point is to see how well the deck fares against blue based control, not pilot.

I am sure if more pwople played the deck, they can get to know the insides and outs of it. This is just to see which deck is stronger.

[ParkerLewis]

Except there is no standard Threshold list, the white one you chose runs Pithing Needles and Predicts main, which are not too common, and also do not affect your lands or tutors right?

I am not saying it wrong to run Pithing Needle or Predict, or that he choose the list for that reason, but that is just a random list that someone posted on the UGw thread, and by no means a standard list.

Sorry, but I can't agree on that at all. Most UGw build of Thresh run Predict, and a lot of builds (read : something like half of them ?) run Pithing Needle.

Just look at the last pages of the deck's thread.

From page 50 onwards :

Pilot                       Predict          Pithing Needle          Page
nastynate                     0                    0                  50
FredMaster                    3                    2                  50
Patoon                        0                    1                  51
TrialByFire                   0                    0                  51
KillemallCFH                  2                    0                  51
Thehunter820                  3                    0                  51
linux-ll-                     3                    0+2                53
PowrDragon                    3                    1+1                55 (latest)
Adan                          4                    2+1                54
Der_imaginäre_Freund          3                    3                  54
Jaiminho                      2                    0                  55

So, as I estimated, over the 11 posted lists, 8 run Predict (73 %), 5 run Needle maindeck, and at least 6 run them if you count MD+SB (i say at least because early pilots didn't post their SB), hence 45-55 % depending on what you count.

Predict and Pithing Needle ARE pretty standard in UGw Thresh.