[OLD] UGw Threshold

[linux-ll-]

[QUOTE=MeddlingMage001;240022]Your second link shows a list from my teammate.. because of the high permanent count they cut the mongeese and replaced them with grunts and hoofprints and it works very well. This list top8'ed a few times at Dülmen and Iserlohn.[/QUOTE

By the way it was my idea to cut the Nimble Mongesse because of high permanent count (CB,Jace,Hoofprints,Oblivion Ring).
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=14820
All in all its a completely different deck unlike as "UGW Threshold".
More control and you´ll never win in the early game. In my opinion its not "Threshold", I´m searching for a better name maybe some guys here know a great name.
I think that this kind of deck has much potential, I played it five times on big German Legacy tournaments (minimum 50 players) and top8´ed all the time

[Adan]

By the way it was my idea to cut the Nimble Mongesse because of high permanent count (CB,Jace,Hoofprints,Oblivion Ring).
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=14820

You have cut Mongoose for Jace and Hoofprints, so where's the difference?
You still have the same permanentcount as before. Not playing win-more stuff like Oblivion Ring would already help to improve Nimble Mongoose, as well as raising the amount of Predicts.

All in all its a completely different deck unlike as "UGW Threshold".
More control and you´ll never win in the early game.

Then why should we copy your list if it sucks in the earlygame because it's not able to apply pressure?

In my opinion its not "Threshold", I´m searching for a better name maybe some guys here know a great name.

P.o.C.

I think that this kind of deck has much potential, I played it five times on big German Legacy tournaments (minimum 50 players) and top8´ed all the time

Iserlohn and Dülmen which are both still pretty random though they have established Legacy since 2 years now. And Dülmen is always publishing only the Top3 lists because they still have the stupid logic of that "Bronze-Silver-Gold"-circle.

[MeddlingMage001]

I wrote 'they' and i meant YOU and my teammate.. He said that he talked to you and wanted to give your build a try.

Without Threshold Mongeese suck... and this list has problems in getting Threshold. Grunts are still 4/4 for a few rounds and mind that you can also take your opponents grave

I first wasn't very impressed by this build but it is far more consistent than you may think.

[Shugyosha]

Then why should we copy your list if it sucks in the earlygame because it's not able to apply pressure?

So nobody should play Landstill then?

Besides, he never said it sucks in the earlygame, it just does not win easily in the earlygame as it is more controllish.

Every time somebody is talking about the list you are making comments about how stupid it is and how random the metagame in Iserlohn and Dülmen is. Have you played in Iserlohn and Dülmen yourself during the last year? Have you tested the list which apparently must be strong as it won several big tournaments in the hands of several capable players?

[linux-ll-]

So nobody should play Landstill then?

Besides, he never said it sucks in the earlygame, it just does not win easily in the earlygame as it is more controllish.

Every time somebody is talking about the list you are making comments about how stupid it is and how random the metagame in Iserlohn and Dülmen is. Have you played in Iserlohn and Dülmen yourself during the last year? Have you tested the list which apparently must be strong as it won several big tournaments in the hands of several capable players?

Related discussion, great!

[linux-ll-]

I wrote 'they' and i meant YOU and my teammate.. He said that he talked to you and wanted to give your build a try.

Without Threshold Mongeese suck... and this list has problems in getting Threshold. Grunts are still 4/4 for a few rounds and mind that you can also take your opponents grave

I first wasn't very impressed by this build but it is far more consistent than you may think.

Sorry my mistake! Absolute Jotun Grunts are a metagame choice. In Iserlohn/Dülmen there are a lot of Loam and NQG and in my opinion (played CAL/Aggroloam for a very long time ) Grunts are pretty strong against these decks especially CAL/Aggroloam.

[diffy]

So nobody should play Landstill then?

He's talking about NQG and nothing else... and I have to agree with him as cutting down even further on your aggro side (remember, you're still aggro-control) is not exactly something you want to do - especially if you only gain one additional power in the lategame and therefore sacrifice a lot of power early (like Mongoose blocking Lackey or like Mongoose just being able to sit there until you have Threshold)... for sure Jotun Grunt is more flexible than Nimble Mongoose, but I don't think that he's worth it over the Mongoose.

Let's compare their pros and cons:

Jotun Grunt

• Pros:
  
  • Bigger than Mongoose
  • Graveyard Hate
  • cmc2 for Counterbalance
• Cons:
  
  • Only good in the late midgame or later
  • Close to useless in the first few turns and therefore bad at stalling for time
  • In the smallest splash colour

Nimble Mongoose

• Pros:
  
  • Shroud - very relevant especially against your bad matchups (control)
  • Can get down early and just sit around and ping the opponent until he grows
• Cons:
  
  • No added utility - straightforward beater
  • Rather small

We now have to weigh the pros and the cons of both beaters according to the Legacy metagame:

• Jotun Grunt, the Graveyard-hoser:
  
  • The Graveyard hate part of Jotun Grunt is a nice bonus because of deck like Survival (Genesis, Anger, Squee, Cabal Therapy), Combo (Ill-Gotten Gains, Ichorid), or anything using Crucible/Life from the Loam (lands).
    
    • However, above mentioned decks are rather rare and not a bad matchup to begin with (if you don't count Stax where the slowness of Grunt is more relevant than his random hosing of Crucible).
  • If you happen to not have a Goyf of your own, Jotun Grunt can also shrink the opposing Goyfs or other graveyard dependant critters (Nimble Mongoose, Werebear, Mystic Enforcer, Tombstalker etc.).
    
    • However, Grunt is rather slow at doing so (you need 3 turns to shrink a 7-card Graveyard and most of the time 2-3 turns to get a Goyf smaller than Grunt). Also, he's a bad blocker which is especially relevant against dedicated aggro.
• Nimble Mongoose, the Untouchable:
  
  • Shroud is a rather relevant ability making of Nimble Mongoose a threat in the first place - he can most of the time only be removed via blocking with something bigger or via mass-removal which is rather scarce outside of that which falls prey to Pithing Needle.
    
    • However, Mongoose isn't the most scary beater in existence
  • Mongoose coming down earlier and not needing any other dedication than 7 cards in the graveyard (while not being dead before that!) is also a further bonus as you often have to race control decks (especially decks like Stax or others which can more or less ignore Counterbalance).

Much can be said about those two cards, but I think that the conclusion is clear, especially because you already have a rather great lategame thanks to Counterbalance, Predict, Mystic Enforcer, Sensei's Divining Top and Hoofprints of the Stag so that you don't need any other stuff for 'later' especially not if that stuff weakens your early game where you are most vulnerable and weakens some of your worse matchups (Control, Aggro).
Jotun Grunt might still be a decent choice if there's lots of Graveyard dependant decks in your metagame, but for the general metagame I would strongly advise against playing them - especially since you're already set rather well against anything that tries to abuse the graveyard and is not Ichorid thanks to Counterbalance stopping Life from the Loam recursion shenanigans rather consistently.

Have you played in Iserlohn and Dülmen yourself during the last year? Have you tested the list which apparently must be strong as it won several big tournaments in the hands of several capable players?

A list performing well has to do with several factors: the list itself, the pilot, the matchups he faced etc. especially the last one being a huge factor influencing success in the random Legacy Metagame. Therefore a list performing well doesn't necessarily have to mean that it is a good list as the pilot can just be skilled or lucky matchups wise.
Also, a list with rather unconventional choices doing well in a tournament does also not have to mean that the pilot would have done worse without those choices - maybe the core of the deck is just that strong that it doesn't really matter much what you play to accompany the core-structure of cards.

Also, we live way to far away from Is/Dü to come up frequently, especially since this would be inefficient both time and cost wise as well as there being diminishing incentive to do so as the tournaments in Hassloch grow in popularity every month so that soon we'll also have sufficient people to compete in size with Is/Dü.
Know though that team SPOD (two members) was present once in Iserlohn - and one ploughed through the field and took first consequently (Stefan 'spirit of the wretch' Czolk - October 2007).

[Shugyosha]

@ der imaginäre Freund:

I'm fully aware that you guys are living too far away to attend Iserlohn and Dülmen and I also know who Stefan is (I played against him at the Legacy Champs 07) and that he once played in Iserlohn. All I'm trying to say (in the post above) is that it is not very constructive to say that both tourneys are random if Adan wasn't there and its also not very constructive to say the list is crap because it proved itself several times and good players choose to run it. I appreciate your effort to at least discuss the list, thats all what I wanted.

@ Lists

The things you said about the two creatures are true in every aspect but I have to add that Grunts also take out recursion targets that are hard to hit by Counterbalance like: Genesis+beater (Vore, Crusher), Witness on something in the grave (Deed for example) and with Grunt + Balance you simply have more outs to Loam decks.
Grunt + Swords is also the most effective mainboard hate against Ichorid you can wish for. Even a dying Grunt usually takes a Bridge or two with them. Sure the matchup is still not good but much better.

But the more important aspects are that
1. Grunts can combat Threshold very effectively. As the opponent wants to fill his grave quickly you can play Grunts in the earlygame where he dominates the game for some rounds.
2. with this deck you want to get into the mid-lategame so Grunt is perfect for buying time if needed. A 4/4 is nothing to laugh at turn 3-4, especially if it shrinks Goyfs.
That are the reasons why I ran Goyf SB in the original Hoofprints list and still do. They are amazing in the mirror and fit the aggro part when it comes to graveyard hate because a Crypt isn't very aggro

There are also problems I faced with the no-Geese lists regarding Grunts:
1. They shrink your Goyfs which is not a problem if the opponent also run Goyfs but sometimes a large problem with Goyfless opponents because slow down yourself. It doesn't happen all the time but it happens.
2. Oblivion Ring is very very powerful but woefully antisynergetic with Grunt. When playing Geese you have one permanent more per Ring. When playing with Grunts you play a permanent to remove another one which robs you two cards which would otherwise help to keep the Grunt alive.

[undone]

(My list)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Predict
2 Repeal
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ponder

3 Counterbalance
2 Hoofprints of the Stag
1 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Pithing Needle
2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
2 Island
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Windswept Heath

Sideboard:

3 Jötun Grunt
4 Hydroblast
3 Krosan Grip
3 Stifle
2 Armageddon

A page back I posted my list and people said to add in EE, I could only see cutting something like 1 Swords for it, but I dont know how that would work out. It seems like the deck is so tight, theres few cards I dont want to see.

Grunt is AMAZING in the board because in the mirror/ other threshold MU, geese are awful.

[Shugyosha]

(My list)

You are running my list list card for card + SB! I'm playing it since December. People seem to forget...

Its good as it is but you might try:

-1 Hoofprints
+1 Mystic Enforcer

as "der imaginäre Freund" plays it. Still not sure if its better but its definately not worse.

Needles could be replaced for EE. Needles are good but I usually would have liked to draw EE much more often than drawing Needles. Its meta and playstyle depend though.

[undone]

I love needle, I would never cut it. I REALLY love it. Needle deals with the following problem cards

Factory
Deed
EE(ironic isnt it)
Wasteland <--- key in alot of MUs
Seismic assault (if it resolves it REALLY is a pain)
Jace/garruk
SURVIVAL
Top if they manage to get a top before you (Repeal returns CB/it well enough)
AETHER VIAL
Rashadan port
Acadamy ruins
Fetchlands (when crucible is out..)
Jitti
All equipment
Arc slogger (really relivant actualy)
Pit dragon (so much worse as a hill giant with D strike)

I didnt think the needle was alterable AT ALL, seems like its the only card stoping some MUs from being auto losses.

[Shriekmaw]

I think Pithing Needle is a metagame card. Some players may found it more useful than others. In the traditional UGw build, there is room to add needle, but I believe the stronger builds play additional splashes which usually finds needle in the board if at all.

I never get too hyped about a certain card in the deck. It may seem good in the right metagame, but I believe you can make a very strong threshold deck without it also. In my opinion, its a debable card.

[raharu]

I think Pithing Needle is a metagame card. Some players may found it more useful than others. In the traditional UGw build, there is room to add needle, but I believe the stronger builds play additional splashes which usually finds needle in the board if at all.

I never get too hyped about a certain card in the deck. It may seem good in the right metagame, but I believe you can make a very strong threshold deck without it also. In my opinion, its a debable card.

Quoted for truth. Needle is pretty sick in some matches and horrible in others. There are a good few metagames where needle doesn't really have any targets and just sits there in your hand until g2 where it gets boarded out.

[undone]

Other then ichorid (which you name Cep colluseam) Where would they ever be dead? I could not find a deck they would be against. And if they were Predict deals with ones on top of my deck nicely. (+1 artifact for goyf)

[raharu]

Other then ichorid (which you name Cep colluseam) Where would they ever be dead? I could not find a deck they would be against. And if they were Predict deals with ones on top of my deck nicely. (+1 artifact for goyf)

There are plenty of matches where is does little or nothing. Agro in general. Suicide Black/ Eva Green (doubly true in the variants that don't run Wasteland/ the LD package). Deadguy Ale. Prision and Chalice Stompy in general. There are matches where it's plenty dead.

[Shugyosha]

Where would they ever be dead?

You find targets in almost all decks and I don't question that. its just that you may run cards in the two slots that are much better in certain metas.

In an aggro meta I would instantly cut the Needles for the fourth Swords and maybe a second Threads for example.

[linux-ll-]

You find targets in almost all decks and I don't question that. its just that you may run cards in the two slots that are much better in certain metas.

In an aggro meta I would instantly cut the Needles for the fourth Swords and maybe a second Threads for example.

Is Swords to Plowshares not card which you want to have all the time?
Can´t understand why you play only 3 main...

[raharu]

Is Swords to Plowshares not card which you want to have all the time?
Can´t understand why you play only 3 main...

Quoted for truth.

Also, yes, most decks have targets for needle (fetchnalds, occasionally EE/ whathave you), but there are decks where said targets are uminportant/ nonexistant/ just bad targets where Needle can be a waste of MD slot.

[Shugyosha]

Is Swords to Plowshares not card which you want to have all the time?
Can´t understand why you play only 3 main...

I've replaced one for a Threads to diversify my removal and - please don't laugh - to have a cmc 3 slot for CB main and have one more when Grips are boarded.
It works perfectly for me but I'm occasionally cutting something (Predict or Needle) to play the 4th Swords.

Currently I'm thinking about:
-1 Counterbalance
-1 Needle
+1 Swords
+1 Enlightened Tutor (for Threads, Top, CB, Hoofprints, Needle, putting something on top for CB and stuff in the board. Most likely Shackles and maybe a Crypt)

I also tested Oblivion Ring in the Needle slot as additional removal after I saw it in your list but its too sluggish for me (see reasons above), although I really love its flexibility. Have you considered playing Vedalken Shackles in the Ring slots in your Big Thresh list?

[raharu]

I've replaced one for a Threads to diversify my removal and - please don't laugh - to have a cmc 3 slot for CB main and have one more when Grips are boarded.
It works perfectly for me but I'm occasionally cutting something (Predict or Needle) to play the 4th Swords.

Currently I'm thinking about:
-1 Counterbalance
-1 Needle
+1 Swords
+1 Enlightened Tutor (for Threads, Top, CB, Hoofprints, Needle, putting something on top for CB and stuff in the board. Most likely Shackles and maybe a Crypt)

I also tested Oblivion Ring in the Needle slot as additional removal after I saw it in your list but its too sluggish for me (see reasons above), although I really love its flexibility. Have you considered playing Vedalken Shackles in the Ring slots in your Big Thresh list?

How is Threads of Disloyalt fast enough but Oblivion Ring isn't? Also, replacing Card advantage (Predict) with card disadvantage (Enlightened Tutor) doesn't sound like it's going to help with your lategame.