[Deck] UBGx Landstill

[DuKeLiO]

There is one main weakness to landstill and it has been said by many people but some are still not listening...............RECURSION............ That being said I guess I have to explain, landstill has a badmatchup against 42 lands, why? because they recur everything they play and you have alot of problems stopping them since counters can't stop land drops. Any deck that runs LFTL is a pain because they recur things like treetop and wasteland and such. Decks that have volrath's stronghold and academy ruins is a pain in the butt, why becuase of recursion. Landstill wins because you force the late game and control the board with card advantage, trading 1 card for 2-3-4......tons with deed if done right, and swing with manlands. But if you have to trade 1 for 1 and their 1 comes back again, you run out of options very fast. Some people have tried to answer this with such things as pithing needle(doesn't answer enough of them and is easily blown up) and extirpate but its still not enough. Hope this explained your question

I believe than the Cunning->Extirpate preboard, and 4 Extirpate with 4 Meddling Mages are enough to stop the recursion. My record against Lands! isn't very significative, beacuse I only played 2 match against it(1 win, 1 draw) but against Aggro Loam for examaple I beat it with these cards. I dislike Leyline of the Void beacuse if you do not draw it in your initial seven, probably will be too late when you can cast it.

[landstill101]

I believe than the Cunning->Extirpate preboard, and 4 Extirpate with 4 Meddling Mages are enough to stop the recursion. My record against Lands! isn't very significative, beacuse I only played 2 match against it(1 win, 1 draw) but against Aggro Loam for examaple I beat it with these cards. I dislike Leyline of the Void beacuse if you do not draw it in your initial seven, probably will be too late when you can cast it.

Well this doesn't work for one reason, Recursion isn't just life from the loam, its also stronghold, acadamy ruins and COUNTERBALANCE(this is considered recursion because it gives free counters, but is the least effective and is easily beat if played against right.) which can't be stopped by extirpate. Plus your adding cunning which takes out 4 slots in a deck(and forces you to build a deck around wish, and leaves less flexability) and destroys your sideboard and in my opinion ruins your 2nd and 3rd game chances against many decks, just to improve your first game. I love wish in 2c decks and some few selected 3c decks but have never liked it in 4c decks, there are way to many options to put in its slots that I feel are better.

[Citrus-God]

Well this doesn't work for one reason, Recursion isn't just life from the loam, its also stronghold, acadamy ruins and COUNTERBALANCE(this is considered recursion because it gives free counters, but is the least effective and is easily beat if played against right.) which can't be stopped by extirpate.

So you Cunning Wish for Extirpate, in which you dont remove lame threats like Goyf, you go for Counterbalance.

As for Academy, Shackles and EE doesnt hurt me, so I usually dont care.

As for Stronghold, it shouldnt matter to you because most decks that run Stronghold actually lack card advantage engines. My plan here is to usually cast a Jace or chain into draw using FoF and Standstills after removing the first one. You should EOT cycle Decree once you hit that point where you can just untap and win within 1-2 turns. But if that creature genuinely does agitate you, just CWish for Extirpate and say good riddance to it.

Plus your adding cunning which takes out 4 slots in a deck(and forces you to build a deck around wish, and leaves less flexability) and destroys your sideboard and in my opinion ruins your 2nd and 3rd game chances against many decks, just to improve your first game.

When all your Sideboards run cards that can easily be sided into the maindeck, which are usually

0-2 Disenchants/Krosan Grip
3 Extirpates
0-3 Spell Snare
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Return to Dust
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Enlighen Tutor

So to be honest, you're more than likely to siding out your Cunning Wishes anyway, so it really doesnt destroy your sideboard. Claiming that Cunning Wish in Landstill would wreck your board is just plain ignorance. I've been playing Cunning Wishes in 4c Landstill for quite awhile.

[Citrus-God]

Wow I can't believe you could actually call me ignorant when you don't even realize your contradicting yourself. Lets go get extirpate with wish and remove that imaginary counterbalance from the graveyard. WTF is counterbalance gonna do once you put in the graveyard, NOTHING it doesn't need to be removed once its there.

You should have 3 Engineered Explosives, 4 Pernicious Deeds, and 3 Cunning Wish. Most Counterbalance decks have slow clocks, so this should allow you to keep finding ways to answer the Counterbalance.


And pls don't come on here and tell me that you will just wish for a grip, news flash the wish will never hit if balance is on board. Yes shackles does hurt you if your creatures are lands,

THEY STILL KEEP THEM AT END OF TURN, and then they laugh as they beat you with your own creature.

Why would you even activate your Factories? You genuinely have no reason to begin with, controll mirror or not, especially when they can protect their own removal with Counterbalance. I have never activated my manlands until I have complete control of the game.

And by your reasoning stronghold is not that good because of little tokens which you also said doesn't by some miracle(or prob cheating) get stopped by explosives.

Okay, I should have elaborated on my game plan here then.

1. If I can't use DoJ to win, I use it to chump block. If my opponent drops an EE for zero, then I'll go for the Counter-war then. If It's the Fear drops a Counterbalance, then I'm more than inclined to fight to keep Counterbalance from resolving, because they utilize it better than a lot of decks.

2. Just Waste it with Wasteland. If they Loam if back, I probably had enough time to drop a Humility.

Now on to this last paragraph which is the worst of all. Awsome lets take out the tool in the deck and put in 1 ofs to make up for it yay...... C'mon seriously, all your doing is making your deck worse by puttin in 1 ofs to help stop a deck when realistically you will never see that card.

You're running like 3 1-ofs? This truly isn't that big of deal to be honest. Also, you will only be using the 3-ofs and 2-ofs off the board more often than the 1-ofs. The only 1-ofs you probably have are Slaughter Pact, ETutor, and Return to Dust, so why are you complaining over how ineffective Cunning Wish is?

Against goblins you have enlightened tutor to get humility. If your lucky you will still be alive on turn 4 to play it and even if you are, they still overrun you on the next 2 turns because it will be at the earliest turn 6 before you can cycle a decree to help you pull it out of your ass then you hope they don't draw any burn to win it. (and running 4 colors means the 2 times out of 20 the trick works you cut it in half because you dont have double white.)

Okay, you have trouble getting double white in a deck that runs 4 Strands, 2 Dragons, 4 Tundras, 1 Savannah, 1 Scrubland, and 2 Plains. I counted 14 White sources, and that's more than enough to consistently cast spells to stay alive and still find Humility.

Against threshold all you have is a krosan grip to stop balance, when in reality the wish will never go off anywaze and if it does the threshold player just keeps a 3cc on top at all times just in case.( and if he doesn't then he is not a great threshold player and a skilled landstill player should win anywaze), and to throw in more laugh, while your wasting all your time to rid a counterbalance they stockpile their hand drop a goyf and goose and take the win while your still thinking of a way to stop balance.

Setting up a Engineered Explosives really isnt that hard. The Threshold player like runs like 4 Force of Wills as their only counters? Okay then, they drop CB, I EE it away, they go for a Goyf and Goose and CB, I just Wrath them away or even play another Explosives. And to be honest, I never stop CB as my first priority. In fact, I almost always let it resolve early game because I know for sure I can get around it.

And against TES you don't have a single thing to stop them, counterspells don't work with shushers and maindeck chants and stifles don't work because of chants and returns, which in all you have boned yourself by playing wish. If you play wish go to 2-3 color and you will prob not play BGU for the 3, so you should not be talking in this thread anywaze so stop spamming bad ideas.

You're siding in 3 Spell Snares, 3 Runed Halos, 3 Extirpates, and 1 ETutor. Now they've just sided out a lot of speed and velocity they have against you in favor of protection. You realize they've slowed their broken starts for a more effective game against you. You should be stopping them from getting any protection at all. I mean, they should die to 1-2 counters anyway since many players cant plan ahead like Bryant Cook anyways.

[Citrus-God]

Here is my current list. I've been running this list ever since Konsultant introduced his Hybrid build. I always considered playing this list as my first priority in metagames with Dragon Stompy and Loam Decks non-existent.


// 4c Cunning Landstill
// Lands 23
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Plains
1 Island


// Creatures 2
2 Eternal Dragon


// Spells 36
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Cunning Wish
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Humility
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Decree of Justice


// Sideboard 15
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Return to Dust
1 Enlighten Tutor
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Krosan Grip
3 Extirpate
3 Runed Halo
3 Spell Snare

[landstill101]

Here is my current list. I've been running this list ever since Konsultant introduced his Hybrid build. I always considered playing this list as my first priority in metagames with Dragon Stompy and Loam Decks non-existent.


// 4c Cunning Landstill
// Lands 23
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Plains
1 Island


// Creatures 2
2 Eternal Dragon


// Spells 36
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Cunning Wish
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Humility
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Decree of Justice


// Sideboard 15
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Return to Dust
1 Enlighten Tutor
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Krosan Grip
3 Extirpate
3 Runed Halo
3 Spell Snare

I know I have always argued that adding white just for swords is more than worth it, but adding black and green just for deed is more than a stretch. You might as well go down to 2 colors and add wrath, it could keep blood moon from every being a problem, and you could actually run back to basic in the deck. Looking at your deck just wants to make me run 4 wastelands because it would be sooo easy to keep you off 1 color. Many decks run runed halo because they don't have blue, but since you have access to both you might as well run meddling mage, it can be used to actually stop a person playing a spell, runed halo only stops cards directly targeting you.

Oh you might want to add that second plains to your build so everything you have said in posts before arn't looked at as lies. You did say you had 2 plains in you build.

[raharu]

I know I have always argued that adding white just for swords is more than worth it, but adding black and green just for deed is more than a stretch. You might as well go down to 2 colors and add wrath, it could keep blood moon from every being a problem, and you could actually run back to basic in the deck. Looking at your deck just wants to make me run 4 wastelands because it would be sooo easy to keep you off 1 color. Many decks run runed halo because they don't have blue, but since you have access to both you might as well run meddling mage, it can be used to actually stop a person playing a spell, runed halo only stops cards directly targeting you.

Oh you might want to add that second plains to your build so everything you have said in posts before arn't looked at as lies. You did say you had 2 plains in you build.

Just reading that post made my skull hurt. He said before introducing thedecklist that it was tuned for a non-Dstompy metagame and you, upon seeing the list, attack the manabase. It's a 4c deck, of course it's going to have an issue with manadenial or mana disrupton. Threshold, which is generally a favored MU for Landstill, turns pretty dire when you throw manadisruption into the equation.

Runed Halo also isn't voulnerable to creature removal and stops threats already on the board. Not saying that Mage isn't better, but Halo does have it's positive atributes that you're blatantly excluding.

[landstill101]

Just reading that post made my skull hurt. He said before introducing thedecklist that it was tuned for a non-Dstompy metagame and you, upon seeing the list, attack the manabase. It's a 4c deck, of course it's going to have an issue with manadenial or mana disrupton. Threshold, which is generally a favored MU for Landstill, turns pretty dire when you throw manadisruption into the equation.

Runed Halo also isn't voulnerable to creature removal and stops threats already on the board. Not saying that Mage isn't better, but Halo does have it's positive atributes that you're blatantly excluding.

My post said in a quick explaination, many many many many other decks run mana disruptions, (for example: threshold and goblins). I pretty much said that he would screw himself out of a manabase just to add 2 colors for 1 card more than needed and a single wasteland can do way too much damage.

[DuKeLiO]

Well this doesn't work for one reason, Recursion isn't just life from the loam, its also stronghold, acadamy ruins and COUNTERBALANCE(this is considered recursion because it gives free counters, but is the least effective and is easily beat if played against right.) which can't be stopped by extirpate. Plus your adding cunning which takes out 4 slots in a deck(and forces you to build a deck around wish, and leaves less flexability) and destroys your sideboard and in my opinion ruins your 2nd and 3rd game chances against many decks, just to improve your first game. I love wish in 2c decks and some few selected 3c decks but have never liked it in 4c decks, there are way to many options to put in its slots that I feel are better.

What creatures or artifacts can play my oponent, that I have to constantly fight against? My oponent haven't more than one or two cards of this kind, and I can Extirpate it. Recurring Tarmogoyf or any artifact isn't a problem, beacuse any card than my oponent puts on top of his library is no card advantage, only, maybe, "card cuality" advantage. Also against recursive creatures I play Humility that owns almost any creature easily, and the most troublesome one, Magus of the Moon, is not played in decks with a lot of non-basic lands like Volrath's Stronghold.
Counterbalance isn't hard to fight against with the Cunning+Dismanting Blow play, and Pernicious Deed, and Engineered Explosives. I play a lot against CB Threshold, and it isn't an issue, I beat it with my list consistently.
What artifact is so dangerous to Landstill? Jester's Cap? Is someone playing it in Legacy?

[Citrus-God]

I know I have always argued that adding white just for swords is more than worth it, but adding black and green just for deed is more than a stretch. You might as well go down to 2 colors and add wrath, it could keep blood moon from every being a problem, and you could actually run back to basic in the deck.

Back to Basics sucks in Landstill.... You run Crucible of Worlds for this reason usually.

Looking at your deck just wants to make me run 4 wastelands because it would be sooo easy to keep you off 1 color. Many decks run runed halo because they don't have blue, but since you have access to both you might as well run meddling mage, it can be used to actually stop a person playing a spell, runed halo only stops cards directly targeting you.

As long as you play against Landstill, you will always have a target with Wasteland. Oddly enough, playing against a deck like Thrash isnt a problem, my problem is Dragon Stompy.

As for Meddling Mage, I dont see it ever being good against a deck like Dragon Stompy when Runed Halo gets around Chalice, protects you from crap like Rakdos Pit Dragon, and such. Also, Meddling Mage blows against every other deck outside of Combo, but even then, I would still rather have Runed Halo because of it's versatility. Runed Halo actually stops Breakfast for good compared to Meddling Mage which can be removed by Crippling Fatigue.

Oh you might want to add that second plains to your build so everything you have said in posts before arn't looked at as lies. You did say you had 2 plains in you build.

Soo.... there's a problem with changing your build every two minutes? I'm sorry, I'm a liberal, I'm not a man of my word.

[raharu]

My post said in a quick explaination, many many many many other decks run mana disruptions, (for example: threshold and goblins). I pretty much said that he would screw himself out of a manabase just to add 2 colors for 1 card more than needed and a single wasteland can do way too much damage.

So 4c isn't a viable decktype at all now, is it?

[Tacosnape]

As for Meddling Mage, I dont see it ever being good against a deck like Dragon Stompy when Runed Halo gets around Chalice, protects you from crap like Rakdos Pit Dragon, and such. Also, Meddling Mage blows against every other deck outside of Combo, but even then, I would still rather have Runed Halo because of it's versatility. Runed Halo actually stops Breakfast for good compared to Meddling Mage which can be removed by Crippling Fatigue.

Runed Halo over Meddling Mage. Really? I go out of town for a few weeks and this is what happens?

They can remove Meddling Mage if they get CF in their hand or manage to roll their deck. Aw. Sad face. This would have been solved easily if for some reason you managed to get two tundras in play to cast Runed Halo, which you shouldn't.

So they have an out to Meddling Mage. Woe is us. That leaves them just having to deal with Force of Will, Counterspell, Swords to Plowshares, Diabolic Edict, Pernicious Deed, Engineered Plague, and Extirpate. How exactly are you losing to Breakfast again?

Runed Halo is awful in any Landstill other than UW due to the WW thing. It's probably still awful in UW, due to the fact that Meddling Mage exists, but I could be wrong there.

[diffy]

Runed Halo is awful in any Landstill other than UW due to the WW thing. It's probably still awful in UW, due to the fact that Meddling Mage exists, but I could be wrong there.

I'll agree to the first part of that statement: WW isn't the easiest cost, especially in 4c Landstill. Also, note the further dis-synergy with Pernicious Deed.
On the other hand, Runed Halo is quite good in any build that can support the double white cost: it does not only act as additional copies of Meddling Mage against combo but can also be brought in for many other matchups like anything more or less relying on a singleton beater to win (e.g.: NQG - Tarmogoyf, Dreadstill - Dreadnought) and the mirror. It is also rather decent against random aggro decks where it acts as a removal/Extirpate hybrid as it actually answers a current threat but also all the other ones they're ever going to draw (Virtual Card Advantage).

You can't go as far as replacing Meddling Mage with Runed Halo though as they serve different purposes. They really only compare in both being rather decent in the combo matchups - Meddling Mage is your friend in the control matchups whereas Runed Halo comes in for most aggro decks.

[Tacosnape]

I'll agree to the first part of that statement: WW isn't the easiest cost, especially in 4c Landstill. Also, note the further dis-synergy with Pernicious Deed.
On the other hand, Runed Halo is quite good in any build that can support the double white cost: it does not only act as additional copies of Meddling Mage against combo but can also be brought in for many other matchups like anything more or less relying on a singleton beater to win (e.g.: NQG - Tarmogoyf, Dreadstill - Dreadnought) and the mirror. It is also rather decent against random aggro decks where it acts as a removal/Extirpate hybrid as it actually answers a current threat but also all the other ones they're ever going to draw (Virtual Card Advantage).

You can't go as far as replacing Meddling Mage with Runed Halo though as they serve different purposes. They really only compare in both being rather decent in the combo matchups - Meddling Mage is your friend in the control matchups whereas Runed Halo comes in for most aggro decks.

That's a pretty fair assessment. I can see where Runed Halo is a useful card, it's just pretty much impossible to play consistently in a standard UBG or UBGW shell, where you need to be working on developing your other colors early on, and I definitely don't consider it to be anywhere close to an adequate replacement for Mage. However, as additional Mage backup in a build that can support it, sure, why not?

[Mister Agent]

Another note I like about runed halo is it can proactively prevent those potential one for one trade offs. In other words, runed halo can give you a golden opportunity to save your wrath of gods, swords to plowshares, and etc for more critical plays down the stretch. Runed halo can act like a psuodo-humility as well as it can be utilized in many other matchups.

Ever since I added Runed halo in 2-3 color landstill decks I never looked back on taking them out. Although I still only board them in for post-board games.

[Jak]

I have been using Taco's 4 c build and loving it. One of the most powerful decks I have ever played. My only problem with it is the fact that it loses to a Blood Moon. My meta is not swarmed at all with Dragon Stompy or anything else with Moon in it, but my friend loves playing the deck. I can't bear losing to him. What is the mana base you would run to prevent losing to a Moon? I have been trying this:

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
1 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastery

Now, I still think this sucks. Still can't deal with a Blood Moon, unless I can counter it, but I have been testing an 8 blast SB. Has anyone done this? Basically, now I don't lose to a Moon. It was difficult fitting it in, but my board still looks nice.

4 Hydroblast
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
1 Life from the Loam

[Tacosnape]

I have been using Taco's 4 c build and loving it. One of the most powerful decks I have ever played. My only problem with it is the fact that it loses to a Blood Moon. My meta is not swarmed at all with Dragon Stompy or anything else with Moon in it, but my friend loves playing the deck. I can't bear losing to him. What is the mana base you would run to prevent losing to a Moon? I have been trying this:

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
1 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastery

Now, I still think this sucks. Still can't deal with a Blood Moon, unless I can counter it, but I have been testing an 8 blast SB. Has anyone done this? Basically, now I don't lose to a Moon. It was difficult fitting it in, but my board still looks nice.

4 Hydroblast
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
1 Life from the Loam

You might as well skip the Island. Trust me. You're going to lose more games to having it when you don't need it than you'll win to having it when you do. Besides. Dragon Stompy can drop out Moons before you get a land drop, meaning you won't even be able to fetch the thing. The best thing to do with 4C Landstill builds as far as Blood Moon is just to accept that it rapes you and try to never let it hit the board. If you can stall until turn two you get Counterspell helping, and on turn three you can drop down a Deed and have an out.

Extra blasts actually is probably the best plan, or at least the best I've come up with, though I usually stick with six rather than eight. There's no math behind that whatsoever, it's just what feels the most right when I'm metagaming against Red. Seven feels too saturated. The right number feels to be somewhere between five and six, but closer to six.

For reference, my standard blind board is:

4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Meddling Mage
3 Engineered Plague
2 Extirpate (And lest we forget #3 in maindeck, otherwise I'd board 3)
2 Krosan Grip

I've been known to go up on the Blast count, and the cuts I make are just sort of a metagame call. Krosan Grip is my usual pick to get Blasts to 6, although I've been known to go down to 2 Plagues or 3 Mages, given that the Blasts help against both Goblins and TES/Belcher respectively.

If you were going to do eight, I'd make it look like this.

4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Hydroblast
3 Meddling Mage
2 Extirpate
2 Engineered Plague/Krosan Grip

[Citrus-God]

That's a pretty fair assessment. I can see where Runed Halo is a useful card, it's just pretty much impossible to play consistently in a standard UBG or UBGW shell, where you need to be working on developing your other colors early on, and I definitely don't consider it to be anywhere close to an adequate replacement for Mage. However, as additional Mage backup in a build that can support it, sure, why not?

Actually, in gets around Chalice for 1 against Dragon Stompy, assuming you keep Magus of the Moon from hitting the board. Also, the only reason why I run Runed Halos is because I run 14 White sources, which is the bare minimum to running cards with WW. However, the list I presented still has many UW Landstill tendencies. If you want a genuine 4c Landstill list, I suggest looking into Taco's, because even though both our decks are board control decks, mine (or konsultant's) is less aggressive and takes longer to win.

[Adan]

That's a pretty fair assessment. I can see where Runed Halo is a useful card, it's just pretty much impossible to play consistently in a standard UBG or UBGW shell, where you need to be working on developing your other colors early on, and I definitely don't consider it to be anywhere close to an adequate replacement for Mage. However, as additional Mage backup in a build that can support it, sure, why not?

Actually, in gets around Chalice for 1 against Dragon Stompy, assuming you keep Magus of the Moon from hitting the board. Also, the only reason why I run Runed Halos is because I run 14 White sources, which is the bare minimum to running cards with WW. However, the list I presented still has many UW Landstill tendencies. If you want a genuine 4c Landstill list, I suggest looking into Taco's, because even though both our decks are board control decks, mine (or konsultant's) is less aggressive and takes longer to win.

Are you using the indefinite "you" or are you suggesting Taco's own list to himself? O.o

[Citrus-God]

Are you using the indefinite "you" or are you suggesting Taco's own list to himself? O.o

ehh... I'm tired... I was suggesting that to everybody reading that post. merr... I mean, this is a discussion...