[Deck] Ichorid

[Bane of the Living]

Unmask is good in type 1, but we don't run Street Wraith and cannot support the card properly because we don't run enough black cards and/or can't miss them.

You should be running him. It makes Unmask good. It makes the namesake of the deck stronger.

..... who said anything about Street Wraith? Dakmor Salvage is terrible since it comes into play tapped and how do you plan on casting Loam?

I did. I've been promoting him for months. Salvage is usefull in metagames that include Geddon Stax and Dragon Stompy. It improves the matchup alot for a one card difference.

A few things here.

First off, with or without LED, you have 8 lands that can CAST Therapy before it hits the yard. This alone nullifies your argument for LED being useful to dump them, because now TES has to deal with you casting AND recasting them. I'd say it's well worth ditching a counter or taking a hit for that kind of power.

Second, check the lists that have been doing well recently, especially the one Anwar is piloting. It's got Unmasks, and he swears by the card. Many times it will remove a dredge spell, an Ichorid, or even Therapy. But it doesn't matter, because it doesn't whiff, where Therapy is typically just used to sac a creature (once it's hit the yard), and tends to be useless until it finds it's way there or you find a mana source. Those two factors tend to play pretty big to Unmask's inclusion.

Third (and part of second) my list I'm working on with a friend DOES include Street Wraith. We've come to the conclusion that Breakthrough tends to just suck. It's ONLY good with a land out, is always a must-counter, and nearly always comes with the same conclusion as LED: ditch the entire hand to pitch the select cards. Why not just do the same with Imp, AND have something to go along with it that's not an all-or-nothing play each game?

Street Wraith has been included over Breakthrough in my build for several reasons:

1- Ichorid recursions +4/Grave Troll size +4. Works really well, especially in games 2 and 3 where you rely on them because you've sided out the combo.

2- Doesn't require mana, and is instant speed. This is crucial. Dredging whenever is cool, especially in cases where you can't cast the Breakthrough, but have the LED up. It's also fun on the upkeep for being able to bring back Ichorid AND allow you to dredge, which will tend to surprise opponents who thought they were safe that turn.

*And there's gonna be a number of games where you can cycle this guy 2-3 times if you see them, because your life means nothing until you are dead. This, DA, lands and LED breaks into nothing seem to be a lot of life loss on paper, but I've yet to go to a game where it's ever been a risk. This version hasn't lost any speed that I've noticed, a half a turn at most.

3- Unmask inclusion. There's a number of black cards in the deck that can be tossed aside, but you tend not to want to. If you already are on an explosive start, he can be pitched so you don't have to.

4- Uncounterable. This is clutch here. Breakthrough is the biggest bomb in the deck, and ultimately tends to get hit way more often than LED by good players. While you aren't drawing 4 right away, you ARE going to draw that one, because chances are they won't waste a Stifle on this guy.

5- Games 2 and 3. I tend to leave him in. Most games I'm not going to side in all 15, and between LED, DA, and combo pieces, I've usually got my 11 spells covered. That means this guy can stick around, and I'll have better chances of drawing into my answers. It's not much, but playing a 56 card deck when you NEED to hit answers is better than a 60.

And yes, removing the combo pieces (this includes DA and LED in most cases) is the typical move for games 2 and 3. They are so hellbent on stopping you from explosive combos that usually nuking their answers and Ichorid beats is all you need.

I would suggest at least trying Street Wraith in testing. I'm still not sold on entirely cutting Breakthrough, but at the same time, we're not running Study either, so I may make room for that. I personally still think DA is the worst blue spell in the deck, because a majority of the time you just can't cast it. I'll be doing more testing on which spells to cut, and when the list is doing more of what I want it to (less killing itself randomly), I'll probably post it.

You make some interesting points. Maybe Breakthrough could be cut. Im makes the deck more invulnerable which is the decks constant goal.

If Painters keeps getting big maindeck pyroblast will be strong against us. The deck needs to continue evolving.

I endorse your experiment. Ill try the changes myself.

[Waikiki]

So how would a list with both 4 street wraith and 3 unmask look like? Cause I dont seem to be able to fit all those cards in.

[DeathwingZERO]

The list I've been working on looks almost exactly like the list Anwar posted in his [Article]Unlocking Legacy - From Here to Eternity thread over in Format Development. The only change I know for sure is -4 Breakthrough +4 Street Wraith. I'm fairly sure we still have the 4th Coliseum, but that might actually be the same as his as well.

Sideboard is up in the air still, as it's all a metagame call. Mine is nearly exactly the same as his, except for the -1 Unmask +1 Ancient Grudge.

[BreathWeapon]

You know what, you're right, please stop playing LED and get other people not to play it either so I can steam roll you in the mirror.

kthxbye

Because the Ichorid vs Ichorid mirror is a relevant consideration ...

Ichorid has to be designed with the opponent's MD and SB hate in mind, if that means Ichorid has to dismiss the explosiveness of LED, Deep Analysis, Cephalid Coliseum and Breakthrough in favor of the consistency of Tireless Tribe, Careful Study and Brainstorm, then as Ichorid evolves to improve the post board games the Ichorid vs Ichorid match up normalizes.

DDD is sufficient against control and aggro-control, Putrid Imp or Tireless Tribe plus Careful Study or Brainstorm is sufficient against Goblins, so all LED accomplishes is racing Storm combo, which can be accomplished with Unmask, Leyline of the Void or Chalice of the Void etc.

I'm not arguing LED should be cut, but Extended Ichorid has merit, and either not MDing it or SBing it out are reasonable choices. The more you play the deck, the less you want to be in situations where you're forced to either run head long into Tormod's Crypt or not have the tools to maneuver around it.

With or with out LED, Dredge is overwhelming game 1.

[edgewalker]

I'm not arguing LED should be cut, but Extended Ichorid has merit,

No it doesn't, wanna know why? This isn't extended. Everyone needs to stop brining up anecdotal evidence from extended because it doesn't fit in legacy, our aggro and storm decks are faster, and our control decks have better control elements. I repeat this is not extended, so stop bringing it up.

I have enough consistency land wise with 12-13 plus LED. I mention LED in addition to the lands because it is a mana source in addition to lands, surprise! It also helps with explosiveness which is needed when most control decks back EE/Deed and goyf. Most control matches I've lost have been because I can't handle taking 4-8 a turn playing DDD.

I won't ever play tireless tribe, but I am considering unmask, just because it's a dirty card.

I believe we've reached an stalemate in the argument since you have a hard on for street wraith and I have a strange obsession with playing good cards. Obviously none of us are going to concede to the other.

EDIT: Also, the mirror is relevant since this deck is a DTB and does see a lot of play. I obviously wouldn't plan a sideboard around it other than leyline and since you are proposing a slower more "consistent" list, I can just race it.

[BreathWeapon]

You need to stop and re-evaluate the argument,

First I never advocated, nor will I ever advocate Street Wraith, second I'm not discussing Extended Ichorid vs Legacy Ichorid, because I have no experience with Extended Ichorid to begin with, but rather I'm discussing non-LED Ichorid vs LED Ichorid in this format or the "Extended" lists focusing on 1cc creature outlets and 1cc draw spells that don't require the "ALL IN!" commitment of Lion's Eye Diamond and Breakthrough.

We haven't reached a stalemate in the argument because there was never an argument to begin with, you dismissed all of the points other people made under the assumption that your points are self evident and indisputable. If you want to play LED based Ichorid, it's a valid choice, but that doesn't mean that people who play non LED based Ichorid are making an invalid choice. Some people just prefer to reduce the "Glass Cannon" aspect of the deck, and that requires a more staggered approach to discarding your hand and dredging your library than LED offers.

Go you own way, I couldn't care less.

[DeathwingZERO]

I pretty much have to agree with Breath's statements. You (Edgewalker) are bringing nothing to the side of LED other than "OMG I RACE YOU FTW!!". I'm sorry, that's just not true. LED is an explosive card, but in no way, shape, or form better than having an outlet like Tribe or Imp.

In fact, I would argue that the ONLY time I ever want to have LED openers is when I know for certain I won't see any of the following cards:

Leyline
Crypt
Fanatic
Stifle
EE
Deed

And this is assuming I'm on the play. The reason I say this is simple: Dredge IS inconsistent. Whether I'm dredging 6 or 24 on my first turn, that means nothing. The deck is nothing more than a statistical practical joke on the pilot, really.

I have never said that I endorse completely cutting LED. I also said I was never fully backing the Breakthrough-less approach. I'm testing these options, something you should probably look into yourself, before your statements continue to sound about as useful as half the 65 pages this thread.

The deck in it's whole is far from what I'd consider optimal. In fact, I'd say it's about 50-60% the way there. The main reason for this is the fact that there's no such thing as a universal list, and there's still nothing to base the original 60 cards as auto-includes. There's already been evolution in the sense of simplifying the combo (cutting back on the Flame Kin and Dread Returns), and changing up what you are dredging with.

In addition, the SB's are often tweaked for maximized metagame performances. There's no way to turn an explosive graveyard based combo deck into an explosive graveyard based combo deck with answers. Games 2 and 3 completely change, and a lot of the times they go very unfavorably for us.

I would suggest at least looking at other options, rather than completely denounce them because you are so dependent on a single 4 of to win your games rather than making the entire thing more streamlined and less "I hope to god my all-in hands are going to win".

[GreenOne]

In fact, I would argue that the ONLY time I ever want to have LED openers is when I know for certain I won't see any of the following cards:

Leyline
Crypt
Fanatic
Stifle
EE
Deed

I'm a noob with the deck.
I don't catch the stifle, why are you fearing it?

[Brehn]

In fact, against EE, Fanatic and Deed I'd love to see LED openers. No idea what you're referring to with "Stifle".

In fact, I would argue that the ONLY time I ever want to have LED openers is when I know for certain I won't see any of the following cards:

Leyline
Crypt
Force of Will + no other castable outlet in my hand

fixed.

[kicks_422]

While I still am on the fence regarding cutting LED, I don't think saying that it outraces opponents adds anything to the argument. This deck outraces opponents even without it anyway, and sometimes LED just slows me down instead of speeding the deck up when in a starting hand with wrong pieces. I could see the arguments for cutting it, and frankly they look much more believable whenc ompared to the arguments against cutting LED.

Stifle... For Cephalid Coliseum? Assuming that's where you put your LED mana into.

[deviant]

Albert Kyle, the "god-father of hate-resilient Vintage Ichorid" builds his Ichorid-lists starting from the sb, and aiming for the most resilinet 75 available. This is because you have so overwhelming g1 it does not matter if it becomes 5-10% worse: it's still in your favor. You just no longer lose terribly to those 10+ hate cards the opp. brings for games 2 and 3.

Now I understand that this is Legacy, but the same thing seems to be happening here: you (anwar) have started to use Unmask as an additional disruption while dropping "combo-pieces". Some people consider dropping LEDs and Breakthroughs in order to make the deck more resilient. This is the way to go imo, if only the replacements are good enough. We can't just mull to Bazaar here :(

I'm looking forward to what you all cook up here :)

This brings me to the only actual proposition I have: the DR targets.
Following Kyle's logic from vintage, I'd make the same changes here: Ancestor's Chosen.

I know this is nothing new, but bear with me:
Against control: whatever, you're not looking to dr anyways and you should just win.
Against combo: tendrils-based combo has hard time getting tendrils for 40+ if not looping with IGGy, which as a plan seems to be falling out of fashion. Also; usually you are a turn too slow to race the goldfish, so additional disruption is welcomed.
Against Aggro: dropping the combo makes you softer here, Chosen helps tremendously.

Now this is just throwing this out here (again), just so that someone who plays this deck more in Legacy and is trying to make the deck more resilient can try this out in a "new shell".

Also: Wispmare is incredibly good in Vintage: why no-one plays it in legacy? It destroys Leyline and can randomly beat for 1 in air. I've won games in vintage like that so don't try to tell me it's too slow.
Seems > Ray..

[Illissius]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but why is gaining a bunch of life with Ancestor's Chosen in any way superior to just ending the game by attacking your opponent with a lot of hasted Zombie tokens? (I can't imagine it being slots, with Ancestor's Chosen taking up one and Flame-Kin Zealot plus Cephalid Sage two -- not a huge difference). If anything is worthwhile as an alternative Dread Return target, I'd think it would be something like Woodfall Primus or Angel of Despair which can take out troublesome permanents which don't impede your graveyard but do impede you from winning -- Ghostly Prison, Elephant Grass, and the like.

[whitshadw8]

Hi. Bane of the Living.
I remember you from the Dredgeatog thread =D. Yeah, tht is all lol.
//
Ok:

Generally whenever I make alterations to the deck, I don't worry too much about counters (usually from Thres and It's the Fear). I know that Ichorid has a good match-up against those decks. This is why I don't really concern myself with Breakthrough, LED and Imp being countered because if they were countered I would be playing a deck is in my favor. DDD strategy and sideboard.

What I'm worried about most right now are bad matchups. As of right now I dislike Goblins. I disdain with a passion TES, Belcher, Stax variations and Painter. So when taking into consideration whether to maindeck 15/12lands and using Breakthrough, LED, Street Wraith, Unmask + Tireless Tribe I looked at my experiences (which hopefully will help this forum):

1st game with Goblins I generally love Breakthrough, LED and Golgari Gravetroll. I do not plan to have Street Wraith nor Unmask nor Tireless Tribe here since: I'm scared of losing life (read next sentence), I want thier creatures discarded not spells [concerning Unmask], and Tireless Tribe does not block enough creatures. Goblins kill awfully fast and thier Mogg Fanatic are super effective vs. Bridges...Game 2 I board Darkblast/such.

I played more games with TES to test myself after my last post here:
I'm always wishing to do 2-3 things here during the precious few turns I am alive: (1)Be faster than they are=> LED/more discard/lots of draw (2)Unmask / Therapy them (3) Kill that Dark Confidant => cause it annoys me lol -.-". I honestly thought about including in Unmask + Street Wraith so that I can mess up TES more but I'm afraid of losing valuable speed. Tireless Tribe=Putrid Imp here to me. Since Unmask + Street Wraith are good I may not have room for the soldier.

Against Belcher...
I pray for game 1. Game 2-3 I smile and pray a bit more. Cabal therapy/Unmask had a little love here to stall (thinking SW also to help Unmask cast quick + it can speed up dredge). Tireless Tribe doesn't give me the upper hand..rather have something else.

Playing against Stax is >.>`` .
1st game - if I am unlucky on the dice roll I can expect to find myself dealing with Trinisphere or Ghostly Prison 1st turn. Once Trinisphere is out I can forget LED/Unmask/Cabal Therapy/Tireless Tribe - I'm forced to DDD. Even if I had 15 lands in the deck to hard cast what I need=>SmokeStack will be around. Street Wraith is useful here for those Ichorids. If that dude casts Ghostly Prison 1st turn I forfeit 1st game. Games 2-3 seems not to really run in my favor...I end up drunk on coffee by the end of 3rd match everytime. I was able to once pull a 1 turn kill and that made my day.

I've only faced Painter's Servant out of all the variations of Painter decks out there. I must say that Unmask/ Therapy are very useful to me. Many times I usually get saved because I got rid of the Painter/Imperial Recruiter. Tireless Tribe is a nice addition but can be taken out for other cards => It's not like they have many creatures and Tireless Tribe = Putrid Imp to me. According to the person that I've spoken to that loves Painter, some ppl chose to maindeck Trinisphere, so I guess I'm lucky.
Games postboard usually find myself facing Silent Arbiter/Trinisphere with counter back up.

..................................................................

So, against all my bad matchups:

1) Tireless Tribe seems like an option that may not be needed.

2) Unmask is useful, but I find myself thinking that I'll be better if it was in Sideboard. My meta has a strong Goblin presence so I'm not maindecking that.

3) Street Wraith is alright. Though is uncounterable, it doesn't really matter to me Unless it's versus Painter (Thresh also but I don't struggle against that deck too often). Against all the matchups I listed here that I have trouble against, I find myself worrying more about my life rather than whether or not I will be able to cast a drawing spell. Since I'm not maindecking Unmask I won't be maindecking Street Wraith.

4) LED seems to be notable against Goblins, Belcher and TES. It is better than other options. Versus Threshold I must admit is usually gets countered but I never bother to cast a lot against those decks.

5) Breakthrough: I remember back then this was a replacement for Tolarian Winds. If this card is substituted with Street Wraith, as it seems to be suggested now, adding Unmask and Tolarian Winds would make sense. Don't get mad at me for this but I rather keep Breakthrough over Street Wraith cause drawing 4 for 1 mana is more elusive/powerful than drawing 6 for 2 mana. I can't really argue about this card cause I my opinions suck. I'm sure someone else can do better. Once Breakthrough goes, so does a couple of other cards because we have to make up for all that draw/discard.

//
I hope this helps. I'm not bias against or for any strategy. I just want to make my bad matchups more better.
//
EDIT:

Also: Wispmare is incredibly good in Vintage: why no-one plays it in legacy? It destroys Leyline and can randomly beat for 1 in air. I've won games in vintage like that so don't try to tell me it's too slow.
Seems > Ray..

I thought about this. Since I have rainbow lands I figure I might as well flashback Ray and Dread Return something else. In Vintage I remember Wispmare is used cause it's all colorless/manaless lands.

[deviant]

Umm.. In vintage manaless ichorid (the resilient one) plays the same rainbow lands you play here (8), and in addition it plays ~3 Petrifield Field.

Wispmares are meant to be hardcasted: you can't DR it with leyline on the table.

You can also use it to pay 1 mana for X zombies if you don't need it anymore.

I just don't see why Ray would be better, could someone elaborate please?

[spirit of the wretch]

Because it does something in your graveyard. When you board out the combo (and the DR) game two/three for enchantment removal Ray is just better, because you don't need to draw it. You can simply dredge until you hit it. This is useless against Leyline but hot against Moat/Humility/Propaganda/Ghotly Prison/Elephant Grass/Duelling Grounds

[DeathwingZERO]

In fact, against EE, Fanatic and Deed I'd love to see LED openers. No idea what you're referring to with "Stifle".

Stifle is a hardcore trick against Cephalid Sage and Flame Kin, either cutting you back bad enough that you can't fully combo out or can't attack them, giving plenty of time for them to EE @ 0 and wipe your board post-combo, thus neutering you to Ichorid beats (and generally dying to your own lack of a library). In essence, it basically Time Walk's them into being able to find an answer on their turn.

While it's not common, enough Thresh and Landstill matchups have proven this to be a very bad thing. Generally speaking in my meta though, Stifle has been cut by most builds lately, so it's threat isn't as bad as it once was, where some decks were maindecking it.

And yes, FoW should have also been on that list, but generally speaking the worst that happens when LED is countered is I have to draw into a new outlet. All the other spells can severely cripple the deck after ditching your hand to LED activations, that's what I was referring to.

EDIT: And as far as EE and Fanatic goes, if I'm on the play, I will ONLY keep a hand that will be able to Therapy/Unmask away the card, AND still be able to win within 2 turns at most. Otherwise I'll slow play them.

[deviant]

Because it does something in your graveyard. When you board out the combo (and the DR) game two/three for enchantment removal Ray is just better, because you don't need to draw it. You can simply dredge until you hit it. This is useless against Leyline but hot against Moat/Humility/Propaganda/Ghotly Prison/Elephant Grass/Duelling Grounds

Now we're speaking. As I said; I tend to play Ichorid only in Vintage (don't own LED's so no tournament play for me) and the "hate" there is a little different.
As a result I failed to remember that enchantment=Leyline is not true in this format.

About the Chosen vs. FKZ/Sage: You can't always bring back eleven zombies and swing for the kill. Especially aggro tends to just sac a fanatic, bolt one of their dudes or something. Chosen always give you something to work with along with the body.
And about the slots? Chosen would take 2+2/3. (2 chosen, 2-3 DR)
To be able to constantly combo, you need 2+2+4. Anything less makes you more inconsistent. (this is from Vintage-testing so a little grain of salt here: there you might need to powder-mull something away. But that shouldn't make too much of a difference)

Running 2-3 DR and one of FKZ and Sage seems really random to me. You can't really expect to have them when you need them. One other DR-target that I had terrible fun with was Sundering Titan. I'm sure this has been discussed, but along with the angel who can take out a land if need be, he is the most disruptive target available.
Again: if you are denied of zombies, he does do something when he comes into play, and he has a nice body to bring with him.

I'm sure these have all been discussed earlier, but if you are taking a new direction and moving away from the combo, the dr-targets should change also.

[DeathwingZERO]

I personally am not really willing to divert from the combo just yet, mostly because it's been so solid against everything game 1 that it just should stick around.

Siding out the combo (including DR's at times) means that new targets in the board may not be the best play. I have actually considered putting various "wish" targets in there, and have heavily considered Titan or Angel.

Titan just because he's pretty much larger than anything RGB(x) Survival and Landstill can cook up, and those tend to be my worst matches post board (having at minimum 2 different pieces of hate to try to beat), on top of the fact that they'll probably lose 2-3 lands when he hits due to their very unstable manabases.

Angel always seemed good because she flew. That seems to be a pretty cool thing, but my problem was always that she never gave the opponent a reason NOT to kill her. Titan on the board scares opponents, they don't want it leaving play. But something with flying that's not a very fast clock (in Ichorid terms) always seemed too slow on it's own. I never got around to testing her with the inclusion of SW for more consistent Ichorid beats, so maybe she will take a slot soon after all.

[Bane of the Living]

If you want to play LED based Ichorid, it's a valid choice, but that doesn't mean that people who play non LED based Ichorid are making an invalid choice.

If your opening yourself up to hate other than specific and narrow graveyard hate you are making an invalid choice. Playing PImps and Tribes open the deck up to Swords to Plowshares and Chalice of the Void. Playing Careful Study and Breakthrough opens you up to Pyroblast and REB's.

Making the deck more consistent isn't always improving it. Making it more invulnerable is. Ive said this so many times I want to smash my keyboard over this threads fucking face.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but why is gaining a bunch of life with Ancestor's Chosen in any way superior to just ending the game by attacking your opponent with a lot of hasted Zombie tokens? (I can't imagine it being slots, with Ancestor's Chosen taking up one and Flame-Kin Zealot plus Cephalid Sage two -- not a huge difference). If anything is worthwhile as an alternative Dread Return target, I'd think it would be something like Woodfall Primus or Angel of Despair which can take out troublesome permanents which don't impede your graveyard but do impede you from winning -- Ghostly Prison, Elephant Grass, and the like.

Gaining a bunch of life is pointless. Winning the game or not losing the game (Platinum Angel) is a much better option.

I just don't see why Ray would be better, could someone elaborate please?

Ray takes out Blood Moon (if cast off led) and more importantly Engineered Plague. There are many enchantments that can hit the table late game that a Ray in your yard can solve. The additional Leyline removal is never bad.

Stifle is a hardcore trick against Cephalid Sage and Flame Kin, either cutting you back bad enough that you can't fully combo out or can't attack them, giving plenty of time for them to EE @ 0 and wipe your board post-combo, thus neutering you to Ichorid beats (and generally dying to your own lack of a library). In essence, it basically Time Walk's them into being able to find an answer on their turn.

Are you Dread Returning at all before Therapy rapes your opponents hand? If your target gets Stifled its your fault not Dread Returns.

------------------------------------------------------
EE for 0, wrath of dog, pyroclasm and other bullshit are reasons the combo win remain important to the deck. Belcher and TES are bad match ups without the dread return combo.

The deck is not 50-60% developed. More like 95%. There are probably 4-8 movable cards in the deck. People that keep insisting radical cards like Tireless Tribe and removing LED just need to be ignored at this point. Many people unhappy with the list are incredibly unexperienced. Ichorid is not an easy deck to play.

If your having a problem beating goblins playtest much more. Therapy for Warchief if mogg hits the table. If they're a large part of your meta, which is odd at this day and age, keep Leylines in your board or consider maindecking them.

If you have issues with Threshold your not playing the matchup correctly. There is no excuse for losing this matchup at all. Slow rolling the deck until stripping the hand of counterspells is a very solid plan. The only reason you should be losing is if your throwing spells into counters and not naming goyf with therapy. Practice.

Remember above all else that this is a legacy forum. Ichorids strategy is completely different because it has led available to it. Vintage Ichorid is actually a turn slower because of this change. They dont have mana to defend themselves or cast Therapies. They rely far too much on Bazaar. Extended doesnt have led so they need to comprimise with more 1cc discard outlets. Chalice of the Void sees no play and allows the deck to rely on its one drops.

Think of Swords, Pithing Needle, Chalice, and Pyroblast. How much do you want each of them to effect you?

[Maagler]

The deck is not 50-60% developed. More like 95%. There are probably 4-8 movable cards in the deck. People that keep insisting radical cards like Tireless Tribe and removing LED just need to be ignored at this point. Many people unhappy with the list are incredibly unexperienced. Ichorid is not an easy deck to play.

QFT

I have been playing the deck for a while and have tested the extended version as well. IMHO the legacy version is stronger, and there is no reason to slow the deck down by taking out the lion's eye/deep analysis.