With 1 mana open, LED + Study, or even better, Breakthrough can be gamebreaking when turn 1 Imp or Tribe just switch the "slow" dredge engine on, or postpone the discard//'blue card' winning plan one whole turn.Originally Posted by Mayk0l
LED makes Ichorid a bit less consistant ?! Bah ! Take more mulligans and turn your whining hands into winning ones !
There's no point babbling about your experiences with extended Dredge in an extended metagame if you haven't test over and over the Legacy list in the same extended metagame.
I've tried the Imp//Tribe list in Legacy. Ok, it's more consistant, I agree. But the lack of sheer speed of those list makes me lost more games than I was accustomed with the standard Legacy list.
It might be revelant in an particular metagame, but I really don't see which...
Like I said before, LED is nuts, it gets even better when you add DA, breakthrough, dredgers, careful study, or cephalid Coliseum... oh wait that's the entire deck!
Si, I like cereal.
A few things here.
First off, with or without LED, you have 8 lands that can CAST Therapy before it hits the yard. This alone nullifies your argument for LED being useful to dump them, because now TES has to deal with you casting AND recasting them. I'd say it's well worth ditching a counter or taking a hit for that kind of power.
Second, check the lists that have been doing well recently, especially the one Anwar is piloting. It's got Unmasks, and he swears by the card. Many times it will remove a dredge spell, an Ichorid, or even Therapy. But it doesn't matter, because it doesn't whiff, where Therapy is typically just used to sac a creature (once it's hit the yard), and tends to be useless until it finds it's way there or you find a mana source. Those two factors tend to play pretty big to Unmask's inclusion.
Third (and part of second) my list I'm working on with a friend DOES include Street Wraith. We've come to the conclusion that Breakthrough tends to just suck. It's ONLY good with a land out, is always a must-counter, and nearly always comes with the same conclusion as LED: ditch the entire hand to pitch the select cards. Why not just do the same with Imp, AND have something to go along with it that's not an all-or-nothing play each game?
Street Wraith has been included over Breakthrough in my build for several reasons:
1- Ichorid recursions +4/Grave Troll size +4. Works really well, especially in games 2 and 3 where you rely on them because you've sided out the combo.
2- Doesn't require mana, and is instant speed. This is crucial. Dredging whenever is cool, especially in cases where you can't cast the Breakthrough, but have the LED up. It's also fun on the upkeep for being able to bring back Ichorid AND allow you to dredge, which will tend to surprise opponents who thought they were safe that turn.
*And there's gonna be a number of games where you can cycle this guy 2-3 times if you see them, because your life means nothing until you are dead. This, DA, lands and LED breaks into nothing seem to be a lot of life loss on paper, but I've yet to go to a game where it's ever been a risk. This version hasn't lost any speed that I've noticed, a half a turn at most.
3- Unmask inclusion. There's a number of black cards in the deck that can be tossed aside, but you tend not to want to. If you already are on an explosive start, he can be pitched so you don't have to.
4- Uncounterable. This is clutch here. Breakthrough is the biggest bomb in the deck, and ultimately tends to get hit way more often than LED by good players. While you aren't drawing 4 right away, you ARE going to draw that one, because chances are they won't waste a Stifle on this guy.
5- Games 2 and 3. I tend to leave him in. Most games I'm not going to side in all 15, and between LED, DA, and combo pieces, I've usually got my 11 spells covered. That means this guy can stick around, and I'll have better chances of drawing into my answers. It's not much, but playing a 56 card deck when you NEED to hit answers is better than a 60.
And yes, removing the combo pieces (this includes DA and LED in most cases) is the typical move for games 2 and 3. They are so hellbent on stopping you from explosive combos that usually nuking their answers and Ichorid beats is all you need.
I would suggest at least trying Street Wraith in testing. I'm still not sold on entirely cutting Breakthrough, but at the same time, we're not running Study either, so I may make room for that. I personally still think DA is the worst blue spell in the deck, because a majority of the time you just can't cast it. I'll be doing more testing on which spells to cut, and when the list is doing more of what I want it to (less killing itself randomly), I'll probably post it.
No.If I win three games against one of the more difficult matchups then that outright proves its use.
Easier said than done. With each mulligan the chance you'll see relevant cards goes down. And the chance you don't have mana to cast your cards goes down.LED makes Ichorid a bit less consistant ?! Bah ! Take more mulligans and turn your whining hands into winning ones !
I have tested both the Extended and the Legacy list, and I've made it to the Finals of a 100+ PTQ in Extended and in 2 Legacy Top 8.There's no point babbling about your experiences with extended Dredge in an extended metagame if you haven't test over and over the Legacy list in the same extended metagame.
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The only matchup where you really need the speed from LED is against Storm. If a lot of Storm is played in your meta, Ichorid is the wrong choice anyway. Against pretty much every other deck, you have the edge in game 1. If you lose game 1, it's mostly because you kept bad hands (or your LED got countered).
More lands - less bad hands - better game 1.
The real key to win with Ichorid is the ability to deal with hate in sideboarded games. And it's more difficult to deal with hate if you can't cast your solutions.
Another minor benefit of running mana is that you can hard cast your critters when desperate and beat down anyway. This might seem like a bad joke, but Nikolaus Eigner almost beat down Mateusz Kopec in the finals of GP Vienna because he had enough lands to hard cast flying creatures and slowly grind the opponent down.
Cutting LED? Cutting Breakthrough? What?
LED is fundamental for the deck's speed, and for giving it mana and a discard outlet at the same time- something no other card can claim to do. It also does very well at baiting counters.
Breakthrough in this deck says: "Put the top 4-24 cards of your library, and your hand, into your graveyard". In this deck deck, that pretty much says you win this turn or the next. In the best case scenario, Street Wraith says "put the top 6 cards of your library into your graveyard."-Not nearly as good.
Keep both, and play 4 of both.
The thing is, you can't use that mana reliably with only 4 Coliseum and 2 DA to pump it into. Also, you need Threshold before you can pump that Coliseum, something which gets harder the more mulligans you take.
If you have land, then you can use LED to bait counters, but that's a pretty big if. Most of the time I didn't want my LED to be countered, since it was the only discard outlet I could cast.
When your hand contains LED and some dredgers, but nothing else, then you don't have to cast that LED on turn one, especially when you know that your opponent could counter it.
The same would be true if your hand had only one land some dredgers and a tireless tribe/Putrid Imp. If it gets countered its +1 timewalk compared to a countered LED.
When you have LED as your only discardoutlet, then you'll DDD most of the time until you find an opportunity to cast LED. Decks packing counters are usually slow enough that you can DDD until you can protect your LED with a Therapy to use it for that dredged Deep Analysis or that Cephald COliseum in your hand. And since you already have cards in your graveyard resolving that LED isn't critical, but it will give you a boost of 2-4 dredges.
What cards do you generally take out of the main when sideboarding, I know what to bring in and when, I just don't know what to take out?
Team Fat Man & Little Boy
That's hardly a true statement. Neither of these cards are fundamental when in games 2-3, meaning they are obviously not "auto-include x4".
LED is NOT fundamental for the deck's speed. It's ONLY fundamental for the first turn, and so many people have cut back the number of Dread Returns that even that is nearly impossible now. If you drop an LED, crack it and say "go" you have 7 cards in your graveyard, and can dredge on your draw.
If you have say Imp, Coliseum, and Rainbow land, you play Imp, discard Dredge card x + cards, get to threshold after your dredge activation, and activate Coliseum, you are FAR ahead in comparison. For starters, you didn't get a single spell countered, AND you still have cards in hand. This is crucial for games 2 and 3, where you NEED mana sources to cast your spells, especially when you can't dredge into some of them due to hate. More lands = better games 2 and 3, hands down.
As for Street Wraith, any single draw is good, it DOES NOT require you to discard your hand. Drawing multiple cards is explosive, but between Study and Coliseum that should be enough. Adding in Street Wraith not only gives instant speed dredge, but it also gave Ichorid comebacks a less painful route (face it, if you are stuck on Ichorid beats or sacrificing them to get to your combo kill, you really don't want to kill off dredge creatures in the middle of dredging). You really should only need to dredge 3 times in a single game to have options available for more dredge, or a good clock. Not to mention, he's going to give you more chances to see your answers in the second and third game, which Breakthrough cannot.
Personally I'm going to be working on variants of the Extended version. Adding in Street Wraith, taking out DA, LED and Breakthrough seems to give way more versatility, while not sacrificing more than a turn worth of speed at most. That's still pretty fast when your average kill turn is 3.
@Wallace: Post your decklist and SB and the people in here can show you the different routes to take when sideboarding w/ this deck. And when playing a deck like this there is no "right" way to SB you just kind of get comfortable with a match and take out the cards you feel are not relevant I am sure most people in here SB very different.
@DeathwingZERO: Quite Fucking True. Make sure you include Tireless Tribe in a few lists, I run 3x and they are amazing in this deck.
@DeathwingZero:
While I wouldn't go so far as cutting Breakthrough, your thought process is interesting (and you slay a lot of "sacred cows"). Please tell me how your testing works out.
With two lands in play, Breakthrough can act as a digging spell, so it's not completely useless.Not to mention, he's (Street Wraith) going to give you more chances to see your answers in the second and third game, which Breakthrough cannot.
If you run Unmask in your build, I also suspect that your chances of resolving Breakthrough are higher, making it an attractive option again.
Finally!!! A discussion that does not revolve around what to sb
My playing experience has led me to conclude that LED and DA lessen consistency to the point that it no longer justifies the ability for a turn 1 kill
I propose to those who suggest unmask and street wraith to post actual decklists so they can be evaulated through testing rather than speculation.
Unmask can also be used as discard outet to allow turn 1 brokenness with breakthrough just in case no one noticed
Hi,
I played Ichorid in a Legacy tournement on Sunday in Mol, Belgium. I did terribly but that was completely due to my inexperience with the deck and the format: I haven't touched my cards in like 2 months. I tried to play the deck like the Type I version, with which I managed 3rd place in a Vintage tournement a while ago, but it doesn't work like that in Legacy... apparantly. :)
This post isn't meant to cry about my lowsy performance but to show that Ichorid did manage to top 8 at the site! Out of 58 people it managed a 6th place: Frederic Kleinen.
Go here for the list and the other top 8 lists: http://www.magicclubmol.be/files/results/20080720.php and click 'Top 8 Decklists'.
From my own experience, for what it's worth, I really wanted more draw and discard in my deck so I can totally agree with the 3 extra Careful Studies Frederic played. I also wasn't too impressed with LED to be honest... Again these observations come from one tournement experience, from the guy who made 48th. *hangs head in shame*
On a brighter note, the tournement rekindled my interest in the format considerably, so... next time!
Greetings,
Robrecht.
Edit
Last edited by Mayk0l; 07-22-2008 at 12:03 PM. Reason: Doublepost
This message has been deleted by Nightmare. Reason: Boo fucking hoo
I never said LED is a good way to dump them out of your hand (which it is btw), I was talking about getting more therapies in your graveyard faster, obviously LED enables faster dredging, which hits more therapies early, which is essential in beating Storm.
The discussion was never about Therapy/Unmask. It was about the role of Unmask in beating storm.
Which brings me to:
But you *do* think Ichorid should play Unmask to beat Storm?
Back to Therapy:
Saccing creatures is a nice bonus to Therapy, but I usually use it to erm.. beat combo? Beat answers? Once you dredge, you have X therapies knocking out a complete hand, beating combo or any answer to your gameplan like STP or whatnot.
Street Wraith however, is a good option. It's viable in Type 1 but it's not really gotten off the ground in Legacy. I just like how Breakthrough dredges 4 times.
Yeah, Chalice costs 0, Leyline costs 0, and the other cards cost 1 mana. Ray and Grudge are castable off of LED even. So the only issue you'd have is one blue mana for Chain. If you can't make 1 Blue mana with 12 rainbow lands, then you're doing something wrong.
It sounds like a silly plan to up your land count with 4 lands just for that extremely rare conclusion. More often than not you'll be stuck with too many lands in your hand an not enough business. And it's especially surprising that a guy who said I shouldn't add a nobrainer card like LED because it helps me beat TES three times in a row in a competitive setting, is now suggesting adding four lands because some dude beat another dude in a last ditch effort-strategy in one particular game.
This doesn't make sense,
First off, adding more land makes breakthrough more powerful, removing them is stupid.
Second, if you want to use SWs ability as a dredge enabler, you're going to have to discard something first any way you look at it.
Third, LED IS fundamental to the deck's speed. LED gives options for fast dredging and fast kills starting turn one. You cannot win turn 1 with a Putrid Imp or Tireless Tribe, you can win with LED. Winning fast game 1 is pretty fundamental.
Fourth, why in your stories does the LED get countered but the Putrid Imp doesn't? If Imp gets countered in your example, you're just as far behind
Finally, in a situation like this, if you have a dredger and are playing against a deck that counters, DDD and win.
This message has been deleted by Nightmare. Reason: Boo fucking hoo
One of the problems with LED based Ichorid is that even tho its superior to non LED Ichorid in terms of explosiveness, that explosiveness is only relevant for racing aggro and racing combo. If Extended based Ichorid can defeat aggro thru attrition and defeat combo thru disruption then implenting a less commital game plan thru Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe followed by Careful Study and Brainstorm is going to make the deck more consistent, but slower, and less vulnerable, but weaker against Tormods Crypt.
Its just a less coin flip dependent strategy, one that gives better winning chances in game 2 at the cost of some winning chances in game 1, but as long as that trade off isnt proportional, and as far as I can tell it isnt, then non LED Ichorid is going to have an advatnage over LED Ichorid against prepared opponents in survivability.
I apologize for the punctuation, my key board is on the fritz.
Is there any good non led-s lists?
Just look back in the thread a few pages. There are pleny of lists. The one I posted has never done worse than a top 8 out of 20+ people.
You know what, you're right, please stop playing LED and get other people not to play it either so I can steam roll you in the mirror.
kthxbye
Si, I like cereal.
I'll 2nd that.
Team Fat Man & Little Boy
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