[OLD] UGb Threshold

[raharu]

UGb Thrash: What does it look like?

[THEchubbymuffin]

UGb Thrash: What does it look like?

4 Dark Confidant
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Ghastly Demise
1 Rushing River
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
1 Wipe Away
4 Ponder

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

SB
3 Extirpate
4 Thoughtseize
4 Krosan Grip
4 Engineered Plague

Would be what I think would be a a UGB thrash, I wanted Seizes MD but couldnt find space.

[Adan]

I play it like this:

// Lands
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [A] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Island (3)
3 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [LRW] Ponder
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [PLC] Extirpate
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [SC] Stifle
1 [OD] Ghastly Demise
3 [ON] Smother

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [FUT] Yixlid Jailer
SB: 4 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 1 [B] Swamp (1)

I have not tested Thoughtseizes yet and it also looks a littlebit contradictory to the concept since you sometimes only want to "Island-Go" on Turn 1 where Thoughtseize would usually shine.
Instead, we play Extirpate since it's a broken card anyway and makes the manandenial-aspect stronger.

An alternative build with Thoughtseizes could look like this:

// Lands
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [A] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Island (3)
3 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [SC] Stifle
1 [OD] Ghastly Demise
3 [ON] Smother
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [FUT] Yixlid Jailer
SB: 4 [IA] Hydroblast

[toxic@venger]

I´ve been thinking on a faerie U/B/G version without moongoose (I think this creature is too weak in the current metagame) and with Bitterblossom (yes, I love this card). This is the first version I´m working on. I expect your suggestions:

4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Trygon Predator

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Smother
3 Thoughtseize
3 Spell Snare
3 Ponder
4 Bitterblossom
2 Umezawa's Jitte

2 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Bayou

Sideboard

4 Leyline of the void
3 Enginereed Plague
3 Piting Needle
3 BeB
2 Sower of temptation

[Adan]

I´ve been thinking on a faerie U/B/G version without moongoose (I think this creature is too weak in the current metagame) and with Bitterblossom (yes, I love this card). This is the first version I´m working on. I expect your suggestions:

4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Trygon Predator

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Smother
3 Thoughtseize
3 Spell Snare
3 Ponder
4 Bitterblossom
2 Umezawa's Jitte

2 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Bayou

Sideboard

4 Leyline of the void
3 Enginereed Plague
3 Piting Needle
3 BeB
2 Sower of temptation

There already have been multiple posts abou Bitterblossom and how good and how bad it is.

It's stong in the earlygame but gets worse the more you get to the mid- and lategame. Multiple Bitterblossoms are also not really good since the increased lifeloss might kill you faster than the Faeries can kill the opponent.

Counterbalance and Dark Confidant shall be the cards to generate CA.

As for Spellstutter Sprite:

As already seen in the ayB-guys Not Quite Survival list:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=14840

Spellstutter Sprite is a pretty good card, but for my feeling it doesn't allow you to play aggressive since it's just a 1/1 Flyer with Flash. It makes the whole deck more or even too reactive and therefore less aggressive.
I played the same list in Heidelberg, but with Mongeese instead of Sprites and made 3-0-1 top2 split (small tournament, though) because then I was less dependant on Survival.

What makes you think that Nimble Mongeese are weak in the current meta, they always have been good.

[Illissius]

4 Dark Confidant
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Ghastly Demise
1 Rushing River
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
1 Wipe Away
4 Ponder

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

SB
3 Extirpate
4 Thoughtseize
4 Krosan Grip
4 Engineered Plague

Would be what I think would be a a UGB thrash, I wanted Seizes MD but couldnt find space.

Spell Snares, I would think. One piece of disruption for another. Snares have better synergy with Stifle, but Thoughtseize is just a stupidly powerful card, so it could be a worthwhile tradeoff. You can also play a pair of Tops instead of the bounce spells, if you're willing to play without maindeck outs to resolved artifacts or enchantments, and then a third Top and a set of Counterbalances in the board -- given that you don't play any must kill artifacts or enchantments in the maindeck so your opponent isn't inclined to bring in Grips, this could be effective. (Another alternative is to move two of the Grips to the main from the side, in place of the bounce spells, and then put both the Tops and the Counterbalances in the board). This leaves you with 20 blue cards, which is not great but hopefully sufficient.

Also, I wouldn't play Spellstutters with only Blossoms to back them up. Being able to counter two mana spells is huge.

[Asfalto]

What about Putrefy? it's a great card, even thought that it can destroy Crucible and Tombstalker... These are my build, anyway:

Tempo Version:

4x Tarmgoyf
4x Dark Confidant
4x Nimble Mongoose

4x Ponder
4x Brainstom
4x Force Of Will
4x Spell Snare
4x Daze
4x Stifle
3x Putrefy
3x Ghastly Demise

1x Island
1x Bayou
4x Tropical Island
3x Underground sea
3x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
3x Wasteland

Coounterbalance Version:

4x Tarmgoyf
4x Dark Confidant
4x Nimble Mongoose

4x Ponder
4x Brainstom
4x Force Of Will
4x Daze
3x Stifle
3x Thoughtseize
3x Putrefy

3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Counterblance

1x Island
1x Swamp
1x Bayou
4x Tropical Island
4x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand

Thoughtseize may work only in a CB version: the Balance improves a Sorcery-speed game, while Tempo is just an Instant playing way.

[raharu]

Adan: Why not the full set of Stifles and Wastes? I was actually thinking something more like this:

Lands: 18
Wasteland x4
Polluted Delta x4
Flooded Strand x2
Tropical Island x4
Underground Sea x3
Island x1

Creatures: 8
Nimble Mongoose x4
Tarmogyf x4

Cantrips: 8
Brainstorm x4
Ponder x4

Removal: 4
Ghastly Demise x2
Smother x2

Disruption: 22
Stifle x4
Spell Snare x4
Thouhtseize x4
Extirpate x2
Daze x4
Force of Will x4

Actually, when I look at it, I think that two or three more cantrips would be nice, but they might gum up the early hands, and I wouldn't know what to play. Serum Visions or Opt, I presume... Ewwww, Opt.

Alright, I'm done.

[Illissius]

Putrefy is way too slow and doesn't even destroy Counterbalance.

Anyways, I like THEchubbymuffin's build which I quoted for the most part. This is a tempo deck, and Ghastly Demise, while not Swords, is the best removal you have access to in terms of tempo. Only Snuff Out is better, and while Snuff Out is otherwise fucking awesome, the deck already has Dark Confidant and hopefully Thoughtseize in it which makes it awkward.

[raharu]

I like that build as well, but the lack of MD 'Seizes and Extirpates makes me look at it kinda sideways.

On a side note, is Confidant really that mandatory? I'm aware of how strong it is, but I'm somewhat inclined to think that the core creaturebase + 18 pieces of dedicated disruption (i.e. everything but Stifle, which is LD as well) would be stronger. Really, I presume it's a question of wether or not you think Thoughtseize > Dark Confidant or not. DC grants a better late game, but I'd think that epic disruption would be as strong, albeit earier, where I'd rather be playing Trash.

On a tangent, what's the general concencus on MD Extirpate? It's generally useful, and the ManaDenial Plan makes it strong enough to play, at least game one, in the matches where it's tradidionally weak (goblins/ Agro).

[KrzyMoose]

A UGB Thrash deck took fourth in Italy last month: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=18366

I think that 3 Stifle, 3 Wasteland is strong setup, and it does seem to be the most popular.

I also think that Confidant is necessary, since these types of builds tend to empty their hands very quickly.

However, I'm not sure that Stifle+Wasteland is better than Top+Counterbalance.

[Adan]

A UGB Thrash deck took fourth in Italy last month: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=18366

I think that 3 Stifle, 3 Wasteland is strong setup, and it does seem to be the most popular.

I also think that Confidant is necessary, since these types of builds tend to empty their hands very quickly.

However, I'm not sure that Stifle+Wasteland is better than Top+Counterbalance.

ROFL, it was in Hassloch, here around the corner. Germany, not Italy. But the same build Top8ed in Italy before, that's correct, that's where Fabian has got his build from.

Well, 3 Stifle, 3 Wasteland is quite enough since you also have Dark Confidant to generate CA and therefore speedadvantage which compensates the 3-ofs.

That's why you play Dark Confidant, he's the drawengine that keeps your hand full and allows you to overextend against Aggro or draw as many disruption spells possible against Control or Combo.

Dark Confidant is essential and THE primary reason to splash black. Period.

Therefore: Ban raharu for not including them.

[KrzyMoose]

ROFL, it was in Hassloch, here around the corner. Germany, not Italy.

LOL. My bad. I saw the guy's name was Fabian, my mind saw Fabio, and then I thought Italy. Whatever.

[Nihil Credo]

Why do these tempo lists only play 3 Dazes? They make sense when you play stuff like CounterTop or EE or expensive finishers, but for straight Thrash I don't see the point.

[RalfW.]

Why does nobody play Bitterblossom in the Thoughtseize Slot?
And I would play at least one basic Swamp. During my testing i always loose against Magus of the Moon if he hits the table.

[KrzyMoose]

There have been a few posts about Bitterblossom a few pages back. I, myself, have tested it quite a bit, and I know other people have, too. I know a couple of UGB builds with Bitterblossom Top 8'ed over in Europe.

Bitterblossom is great against the mirror. It's also great when you get it down
early against Aggro decks. It's also decent against Control decks. It is worse than Thoughtseize in the Combo matchup.

However, you already have a good matchup against the mirror, and an okay matchup against Control. So, Bitterblossom's significance in the Aggro matchup should be examined most closely.

What I've found is that as the game draws on, against Aggro decks, casting Bitterblossom becomes less and less good. Sure, if you can land it on turn two or three, it can be a complete monster. But, when you draw it later on, it is very costly, more so than Thoughtseize. Thoughtseize, if you draw and cast it later in the game, costs you two life. Bitterblossom will cost you more, and may not end the game soon enough.

Even though Bitterblossom has a large effect on board position, it's benefits can only be felt in the early game.

Personally, I love the card. But, it's not that much better than Thoughtseize.

[raharu]

I presume DC is the whole reason to splash black, regardless of what build you're playing. I figured that in Thrash DC was just a tool for the late-game, where you kinda don't want to be, but it's more of a constant reload. That explanation works.

[Adan]

Why do these tempo lists only play 3 Dazes? They make sense when you play stuff like CounterTop or EE or expensive finishers, but for straight Thrash I don't see the point.

That's what I told Fabian as well after I saw his list. He simply netdecked it and said that he can't find any space for the 4th Daze.

Why does nobody play Bitterblossom in the Thoughtseize Slot?

Bitterblossom is - in compairison with Thoughtseize - a rather situational and therefore clunky card.

Thoughtseize is endless times more flexible, ensures you to resolve your threats (or picking the opponent's threats away) and in case of Thrash, to disrupt the opponent hard together with Stifle-Waste.

And I would play at least one basic Swamp. During my testing i always loose against Magus of the Moon if he hits the table.

When? The trick is to float black mana in response and then hit him with Smother/Demise.
For other situations you have counters and SB BEBs/Hydros.
And if he comes down lateer, the Goyfs you have played before can still kill him.
Since there are free slots in the Sb of the Thrash build I play at the moment, I have the Swamp in the Sideboard, though.

[Nihil Credo]

Yes, I admit, DC is great, but I don't think it's that great if you draw it midgame when the opponent has Counterbalance/Top active.

So? I'm pretty sure Thoughtseize is just as if not more crap in that situation.

I will admit, DC > Thoughtseize early game in the mirror, but Thoughtseize helps you attack the opponent where he's weak, whether that may be taking a Goyf, CB component, or just denying him of anything of importance in general like counters.

In the mirror match of the most consistent deck in the format? If I were to pick, I'll take the draw engine any day long, thanks. Few exceptions come to mind (e.g. when either player has a natural turn 3 CounterTop lock to resolve and the opponent has no Brainstorm).

Two more disclaimers: 1) I wasn't talking just about the mirror; 2) In the mirror, I bring in the Thoughtseizes from the side when I'm not maindecking them.

[Citrus-God]

So? I'm pretty sure Thoughtseize is just as if not more crap in that situation.

This is true.

In the mirror match of the most consistent deck in the format? If I were to pick, I'll take the draw engine any day long, thanks. Few exceptions come to mind (e.g. when either player has a natural turn 3 CounterTop lock to resolve and the opponent has no Brainstorm).

Two more disclaimers: 1) I wasn't talking just about the mirror; 2) In the mirror, I bring in the Thoughtseizes from the side when I'm not maindecking them.

Maindeck Confidants and Thoughtseizes in the Sideboard doesnt sound like a bad idea. You should show me your list.

As for Dark Confidant being a draw engine, I admit he's very good, but right now, I just feel that there are better cards than him at the moment. I will admit, he's better than Mystic Enforcer.