[OLD] UGw Threshold

[Jaiminho]

Why would you ever want to gain life? If you actually need to do it in order to survive against burn, STP you own Goyf or something. Man, this thread has just embraced failure.

[Adan]

I think you have that mixed up, Thoughtseize is the card that lets you win games you have no business winning. I have been able to screw over Ichorid many times this way, along with simply winning against the most terrifying control decks imaginable. From experience I can tell you that DC is a card that has to be delt with by the opponent, and is, quite easily is in this format. Its very good but not the main reason to run black in my oppinion.

YEAH, SCREWING ICHORID WITH THOUGHTSEIZE, RIGHT.

Thoughtseize is beside Counterbalance one of the most terrible cards you could have against Ichorid. The same is true for the Burn-matchup. That's why this can't be the main argument in the "which is the primary card to splash when playing black".

It's good against control, yes, and since more and more decks are playing Standstill as a drawengine again (Landstill and Dreadstill), Thoughtseize becomes better since breaking Standstills with Thoughtseize is good.

[Citrus-God]

Well... if there's one thing Pulse can do right, it can force the opponent to mana burn himself to keep you off Pulse which is basically good for Goyf range?

[diffy]

YEAH, SCREWING ICHORID WITH THOUGHTSEIZE, RIGHT.

Thoughtseize is beside Counterbalance one of the most terrible cards you could have against Ichorid. The same is true for the Burn-matchup. That's why this can't be the main argument in the "which is the primary card to splash when playing black".

Thoughtseize is actually surprisingly good against Ichorid if you're on the play. If they kept a non-broken hand you can nab their discard outlet (Breakthrough, Careful Study, LED, Putrid Imp, in this order) and therewith slow them down to a crawl: they now don't have any discard outlets to start playing magic and will have to skip 2 turns doing nothing if they want to go the DrawDiscardDredge-route - not that this is of any use preboard because you still won't race them, but postboard it is quite a good move to buy you time to draw/cantrip into further hate.

It's good against control, yes, and since more and more decks are playing Standstill as a drawengine again (Landstill and Dreadstill), Thoughtseize becomes better since breaking Standstills with Thoughtseize is good.

Thoughtseize is also good to set-up your main path to victory: a turn 1 Thoughtseize followed by a turn 2 Counterbalance is often devastating.

That's why this can't be the main argument in the "which is the primary card to splash when playing black".

I have to agree with this statement: while Thoughtseize is a good tool for the early- and midgame, it is no threat. It doesn't win games, it only helps winning. Dark Confidant, on the other hand, is a threat that wins games on its own which, in my opinion, makes Dark Confidant the much more attractive card to splash for.
Obviously there's no real reason to not play both, except maybe City of Brass and the 5c manabase which are rather unneeded in my opinion too: there's not a lot of commonly played stuff out there that dies to Swords to Plowshares and not to Ghastly Demise (mainly Dark Confidant and Tombstalker) or Smother (mainly Tombstalker) and if you're that paranoid and absolutely want to play Swords, just go with a 4c Manabase (like Bardo does) and play more Fetchlands and Cantrips to fix any mana issues that might appear - it's not that hard... I've played 4c Tempo Versions (i.e. 18 land manabases including Wasteland) before and they were all really solid.

[raharu]

Why would you ever want to gain life? If you actually need to do it in order to survive against burn, STP you own Goyf or something. Man, this thread has just embraced failure.

This.

@ DIF: Do you have the list for 4c tempo threshold?

Also, do you mean to say that Red doesn't have boarding options strong enough to justify the 5th color? Or just not the Cities, running a Volcanic instead?

EDIT @ Gitrus-God: In threshold, there isn't anything that Pulse does right.

[undone]

Does any one have a list that can beat ichorid?? I feel like a list involving E tutor should be able to do it.

[Adan]

Does any one have a list that can beat ichorid?? I feel like a list involving E tutor should be able to do it.

UGw can't really beat Ichorid, except you can SOMEHOW manage to get 3 Goyfs to the board in the first 4 Turns AND slow him down with Tormod's Crypt.

You might as well resolve an early Wheel of Sun and Moon which can work,too, just StoP' those Narcomoebas as soon as they come into play.

You would have to do something like this guy

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=17414

to beat Ichorid efficiently, but that takes at least 6 sideboard-slots. This will make other matchups worse.

[Citrus-God]

UGw can't really beat Ichorid, except you can SOMEHOW manage to get 3 Goyfs to the board in the first 4 Turns AND slow him down with Tormod's Crypt.

You might as well resolve an early Wheel of Sun and Moon which can work,too, just StoP' those Narcomoebas as soon as they come into play.

You would have to do something like this guy

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=17414

to beat Ichorid efficiently, but that takes at least 6 sideboard-slots. This will make other matchups worse.

Therefore the most optimal decision you can make is actually play 5c Thresh. It runs Swords to Plowshares maindeck, and post-board, you get 4 Yixlid Jailers and 4 Pyroclasm.

[Shugyosha]

Jotun Grunt really helps with the Ichorid matchup and is very useful in many other matchups where you need a combination of grave hate and beater. If you manage to find Swords for his Ichorids and get a Grunt to stick you can win but its still a bad matchup.

[undone]

Grunt seems good, but it also seems like EE is a fairly multi use card for that MU. Or maby E truth.

The list Im using is

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Predict
2 Repeal
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ponder

3 Counterbalance
2 Hoofprints of the Stag
1 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Pithing Needle
2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
2 Island
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Windswept Heath

SB
4 BEB
3 J grunts
2 EE
2 K grip
2 Armageddon
2 open slots Possible options include

2 E tutor
2 E truth
1 grip 1 blue blast
1 geddon 1 grip
2 crypt
2 Meddling mage

[Adan]

2 Repeal
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Threads of Disloyalty

...What sense does this make? Oblivion Ring anyone?

[Shugyosha]

...What sense does this make? Oblivion Ring anyone?

Its my old list. Aggro Loam wasn't a problem back then and I changed it to 4 Swords, 1 Threads, 1 E. Tutor later on cutting other stuff.

@undone: If you still want to run this list I recommend the following changes mainboard:

-2 Needle
-1 Predict
-1 Threads

+1 Enlightened Tutor
+1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Swords
+1 Top

You might also want to try my current UGw List which runs Trygon Predator over Hoofprints, O.Rings over Repeal and V. Shackles over Needle and the 4th Sword instead of the Threads. Well something like this. If you're interested I can post a full list or look through my blog (link in my sig.) maybe its there somewhere.

Gotta go...

[undone]

I really like the list, The only things I have honestly Considered doing to it are

-2 Repeal
-1 predict
-1 needle
+2 enlightened tutor
+1 shackles
+1 Oblivion ring

With some side board tutor targets. I really REALLY hate stifle in white thresh. I guess combo meta games exist but it seems crappy in a non tempo build.

I really dont think 4 swords is needed. I always find myself hating them in hand.

I like 3 swords, 4 is too many, as the threads works as a force pitchable swords that CBs the 3 slot.

All I can say is hoofprints is a HOUSE it wins matchups all by its little bitty self, Im not cutting that card. Ever. It either eats an EE for 2 a spell snare, or wins the game. End of story.

Also, why - threads when you add tutors.. That doesnt make much sence to me.

[ParkerLewis]

I have to completely agree with all of these points and feel the UGw and UGr lists have been made obsolete by now, unless you're going for a dedicated mana-screwing plan (Moon effects, Wasteland, etc.).

Here's what I've been playing and it is a round-house kick of awesomeness:

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Divining Top

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
3 Counterbalance

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant

* 1 Open Slot *

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra

Sideboard
4 Hydroblast
3 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle

With all of the life-loss effects, you're going to take some damage, but the return on your investment is substantial enough that it rarely matters.

I'm not what sure what to do with that open slot. Recently, the list was -1 Thoughtseize, -1 CB#4/Enforcer/Open; +2 Spell Snare, but I'm not 100% on the Spell Snares.

I pretty much love your list, except that you are almost auto-losing to non basic hate (b2b, moons) barring the possibility of countering / thoughtseizing them. Is this possibility high enough ? Now, maybe that's not a problem in your meta anyway, and I agree that fitting 4c with some basics in 17 (or even 18 as in your list, for that matter) is not easy, but is the white splash for stp only really worth it ?

In particular, wouldn't other options like Smother or Diabolic Edict be almost as good, but with the added reward of being able to build a much more robust manabase (while also lowering it to 17 lands thus freeing a slot) ?

[Adan]

I played at the German Legacy Championships Sidevent with UGW Thresh and went 6-2, 10th out of 145 I think.

I played this list:

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [B] Tundra
1 [A] Island (1)
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [OD] Mystic Enforcer

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [OD] Predict
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [10E] Pithing Needle
2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon

My matchups were:

1. Death and Taxes 2-1 Win
2. The Perfect Loam 1-1 and then 2-1 because my Opp got DQed for stalling
3. UB Faeries 2-0 Win
4. RBg Goblins 2-0 Win
5. UWb CunningStill (piloted by Marius "Wasteland" Hausmann) 2-0 Loss
6. UBg Faeries 2-1 Win
7. Solidarity (piloted by Simon "Van Phanel" Ritzka) 2-0 Loss (I R STUPID)
8. RB Goblins 2-1 Win

6-2, 10th Place. I don't know about the other SPOD colleagues, but Christian "Windux" Wilczek played ITF and got 11th with the same result and Alex "mackaber" Mack top8ed with TarmoTog.

A report about matchups, cardchoices, funny quotes and whatsoever will follow soon. Well... UGW = t3h OwnZ0r.

[KillemallCFH]

Your MD is very similar to mine; I'm running -3 Predict, +2 Portent, +1 Land. I think that the 2/2 Oring/Needle split is definitely the way to go. Concerning the SB, how was Wheel? I haven't tried it yet, but it seems pretty good in theory.

[undone]

I am playing 2 enlightened tutors, I was curious are there any remotely playable 4 CC cards for that slot?

[J.V.]

I am playing 2 enlightened tutors, I was curious are there any remotely playable 4 CC cards for that slot?

A singleton Worship maybe?

[Adan]

Your MD is very similar to mine; I'm running -3 Predict, +2 Portent, +1 Land. I think that the 2/2 Oring/Needle split is definitely the way to go. Concerning the SB, how was Wheel? I haven't tried it yet, but it seems pretty good in theory.

Wheels are pretty similar to Leylne of the Void and that was key against The Perfect Loam. g1 I lost very close (I just needed to play Needle on Maze but didn't found my 2nd Needle) and g2 he annoyed me with double-Exploration, Crucible and Zuran Orb. Since the deck runs about infinite recursion-engines (Eternal-Witness-Stronghold, EE-Ruins, Loam, Crucible), Wheel was better than Jotun Grunt in this case because it also shut of all those Zuran-Orb shenanigans.

Why my Opponent got disqualified:

In g2, I was on a god way to win it with 2 Needles on Wasteland and Ghost Quarter. In the lategame, he had 3 Mishra's and Tabernalce, whereas I had 2 Goyfs and Enforcer (18 Power). I also had CBalance with O-Ring floating on top which countered Witness, Predator, Crucible, Propaganda and 100 more spells, dunno anymore. So when there were about 7 minutes left until timeout, he always actiated his 3 Mishra's at end of my turn and then like "this one pums.. this one, this Mishra pumps the other one and this one...well, pumps itself". He was doing it 4 or 5 times and in this time, 3 judges gathered around us. Before the extraturn I'm pissed, and decide to dig for my 3rd Needle with double-Ponder and a fetch. With succes. I needle Mishra and swing for 18 three times. His Zuran Orb could not save him since he was keeping a Glacial Chasm alive with it some turns before.

So, officially, I ripped the 1-1 draw from the top. But then some time after, a judge tipped on my shoulder and said: "Yo, your opponent is going to be DQed and you will get the 2-1 win" "Why is that?" "Well, we watched it and we all decided that he was intentionally hindering you to win the 2nd game -> stalling".

@ discussion: Enlightened Tutor sucks because it's carddisadvantage and clunky.

[AngryTroll]

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [B] Tundra
1 [A] Island (1)
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta

UGW Land Base:

4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

Now, of these three manabases, which one is the strongest?

The biggest problem I have with four and five color Thresh lists, and even Adan's three color list (congratulations on the finish, though), is that you are wrecked by decks like Imperial Painter, Dragon Stompy, and Survival that run Blood Moon effects. True, Thoughtseize is amazing in all these matchups, but a topdecked Magus of the Moon or Blood Moon ends the game. Thoughtseize, Daze, Force, and Counterbalance are all great, but against a deck like Dragonstompy and Survival with a billion must-counter cards, making Magus another game winning bomb for them is a terrible idea.

Magus of the Moon, Blood Moon, Wasteland + Loam, and Price of Progress are all cards that see play that are strong against Thresh. However, without a single basic in the deck, you are needlessly opening yourself to randomly losing games to bad decks.