I believe Shackles to be strictly inferior to Threads in ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, except in some rare occasions. And even then, Threads are pretty bad....
IMO, you are better off with
+1 daze
+1 land/pithing needle/EE
Robert
You're right. Shackles isn't very good these days.
I decided to go...
-2 Veldelkan Shackles
+2 Manamorphose
I am updating my list as we speak.
I really don't think Manamorphose is getting the respect it deserves. It effectively lets you play a 56 card deck.
We are so adamant that a deck should never exceed 60 cards to maximize the oppurtunity to draw the most powerful cards we can.
It gives us that better a shot at drawing the truly broken cards like Tarmogoyf and Force of Will that we can never get enough of all without using any mana.
The ridiculous argument that people make against Manamorphose, that it makes for tougher mulliganing decisions simply doesn't make a lick of sense. If that were the case, we shouldn't have be playing any cantrips. All cantrips make for tougher mulliganing decisions. That's just the nature of a cantrip.
So when we have the oppurtunity to play 56 cards, why don't we use it.
Well that's not a fair statement. I am only playing a 58 card deck as I could only make room for 2 Manamorphose.
But atleast that's a start.
Here is my temporary test sideboard...
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Trygon Predator
2 Krosan Grip
2 ??????????
Any suggestions please?
Yes, I know. Still, running only 15 sources of blue is low and adding another is important.Originally Posted by Nihil Credo
I don't buy that.
Considering that we run at a bare minimum 11 cantrips, and considering that a grandtotal of three cards in the whole deck need double blue mana, 15 blue sources is plenty. Especially if you play 2 Manamorphose that have the advantage of getting UU when needed.
You can however argue that the deck needs more lands because that particular build is either too low on cantrips, or plays on too high of a mana curve.
You will get hands with a forest and an island and not be able to cast that turn two balance. I am not a math wiz, but running 3 basics that don't say Island will make you mulligan more. You don't even need to have 2 basic forests in the deck, anyway. Running Heath gives you more blue sources, more white sources, the same amountof green sources, and a shuffle effect. I guess I am just a guy who doesn't want to mulligan if I don't have to.
Untrue. Ponder lets you take the best of three, making it easier to take somewhat sketchy looking hands because you will most likely find what you want/ need in those first three cards. Same is true of Brainstorm, but it's the best of 3 + handsize. Manamorphose, on the other hand, isn't a card quality cantrip. You're pulling a random card off the top, and you have to pay two mana to do it, which means that it in fact does make Mulliganing decisions harder because you don't know what that next card it, and you can't select from the cards on top or shuffle them off. Sometimes you don't have cards to sink two mana into. Other times you need a specific card and you need it to, you know, do something relevant, or at the very least dig deep for something else that could be relevant. In all honesty, I'd play Portent or Opt in those slots. Hell, I'd play Street Wraith before I ran Manamorphose because it can be used early because it's free, and used at instant speed, and better with top (because you don't have to draw with top, you can grab the card at instant speed with Wraith), and it's better with a t1 filter (that is to say, Brainstorm or Ponder, because they filter as opposed to your definition of 'cantriping', whereas mine is indicative of having card selection instead of just replacing itself).
Actually, Repeal looks kinda nice, after looking at cards that replace themselves at instant speed. Huh... this could possibly be interesting. At the worst it pitches to FoW and kinda handles Counterbalance G1.
Team Battletoadz: Fuck the Meta-police?
If it's all in our heads, it's best that we don't loose them.
I seriously don't understand why you want to play Manamorphose...
I know, when the card was first spoiled, people were claiming that it was going to be played in ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh (at least in my area). Guess what? It never saw any play because it is just plain bad.
People says : It will help us get 2 blue. The deck runs 7-8 fetches, 6-8 blue dual, 0-2 island. Does it really need a card to get 2 blue mana source?
People also says : It is a free cantrip. Yes, true. But i would rather have a real cantrip, say ponder, portent, brainstorm, predict, sensei instead of a weak Manamorphose. You still need 2 mana for that blind cantrip.
Manamorphose, let me say it, is strictly a combo card. Free mana fixing cantrip spell are always good for combo deck because their deck is usually : mana (rituals), kill, tutor, little protection and some lands.
ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, on the other hand, has 17 land, 10-12 creatures, 4-6 removal, 11-12 counter, 11-15 cantrip, and other. Do you really want to random one of the following cards? I don't. Even for free, i would rather not waste a space.
And about the 56 bullcrap.deck. No. No. No. Remember the hype around street Wraith? See how that card is crap and little to no deck plays it? It doesn't improve your maths, it doesn't improve your chances of drawing better. If you start your hand with 1 land, 1 street wraith 5 other cards. Will you keep that hand? If you get a 2 hand land, 0 counter, a bunch of cantrip and 1 street wraith. Will you keep that hand?
Serum vision was replaced by ponder, even though the scrying effect was great. Guess what? Blind draw is always always bad. Manamorphose and Street wraith are no exception.
all this to say, don't play Manamorphose. It's your deck obviously, but take this as a friendly comment.
Try instead, if you really want a blind cantrip, 2 repeals. Blind cantrip, but with a decent effect, unlike Manamorphose/SW
Robert
This from Shards:
Stoic Angel
Cost - 1GWU
Creature - Angel
Flying, vigilance
Players can't untap more than one creature during their untap steps.
#199/249 3/4
Decent? Is this useable for us, like against Goblins or the Mirror? It's out of burn range, flies, and swings while maintaining a blocking capability. I realize it costs 4, but so does Mystic Enforcer, Swans, and Dragon. The only thing better than it in mana cost is Trygon Predator, but that's a sideboard card most of the time.
Just thought I'd throw it out there, I honestly don't know if it's playable. If it's already been discussed, I apologize.
Pce,
--DC
It's stats are not impressive (goyf, hell even Werebear is bigger).
It's casting cost sucks (our curve tops off at 2 Enforcers and even there many opt to only play one). Also, needing to use one mana of each color isn't great either.
The only possible place where it would be playable is agianst weenie swarm decks like Goblins.
That's the only place where it's ability and/or vigilince matters.
Even those deck have tons of ways to kill him, the same cards they use to kill Goyf.
P.S: Manamorphose is a fine card. I'm very happy with it so far.
3/4 Flying, Vigilance and a nice ability are some pretty good stats.
So adding a blue to the cost makes it harder to cast then Enforcer? If you play this, you would cut Enforcer.
Even against Thresh it is good. Blocks and kills goose, with this out and a Goyf you will always have the advantage, and it still owns Warrens, Goblins, creature.dec.
Yeah, if he can be killed by Swords to Plowshares, lets not run him
Manamorphose is bad. Weren't you the one saying that you get UU turn 2 all the time and that adding the basic forest is better than a Heath? Then why run this?
I would think that you would run them as an either/or situation. Stoic Angel is decent against Threshold, but isn't anything spectacular, and is actually rather bad against Thresh versions packing Moon effects and Wastelands unless you specifically configure your mana base to accommodate it. Mystic Enforcer suffers from some the same problems, being in your two off colors, but it does have the advantage of being a lot bigger.
Really, Angel is best in the aggro matchup, and Enforcer in just about everything else. One should be in the sideboard and the other in the maindeck if you wanted to run both.
So it's good enough to be a metagame call. I think I'll pick up a set, Thx.
Pce,
--DC
Is vigilance and the creature-Orb ability *that* nice compared to Enforcer's pro-black and +3/+2 (conditional, sure, but when I cast Enforcer I either have Threshold or am a card or two at the most away from it)?
Which, in everyone's opinion, is more likely to apply on turn 5+: to stare down a creature sized between 4/4 and 5/6, or black creatures of any size; or to stare down a bunch of tapped small creatures? Or, for that matter, to be the aggressor and needing to finish your opponent as fast as possible?
Pitching to Force is pretty damn nice for an expensive finisher though.
EDIT: Wait, the ability's symmetrical too. Fuck this, the card is terrible against control.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
So don't use it and just stick with Enforcers for the control matchup? I still think it's decent against goblins and other swarming decks such as Boros Deck Wins, and way more useable than Swans against everything in general. You have enough between CB (If you run it) or counters and removal to withstand goblins until you can drop it, and then you can fly over what creatures they do have. I play goblins as well, and I have to say that UGw Thresh is most often a favorable matchup. I normally have to go mid-late game, but I can normally beat it.
I don't have that much of a use for Trygon Predator in my meta, but any other flyer that doesn't cost $40 a pop is good (I can't justify buying Drakes for one deck (since I don't play Faerie Stompy) at that price).
Probably the best bet is to run two Enforcers in the main and two Angels in the side, and switch in Angels for Enforcers against Goblins and other aggro decks. Angel is basically a narrow answer card, and as such belongs in the sideboard if it even makes the deck at all.
EDIT: I should add that Swans doesn't make Thresh decks for its general usefulness, but rather because it enables a combo finish.
I ran it (Swans) in a UGr list @ GenCon without the combo finish and it did well, but that's because it turned my burn spells into Ancestrals, giving me way more card advantage than my opponents, letting me hit several goyfs a game, not to mention evasion when they ran out of answers that ran into much more counterspells than should be expected, again thanks to the extra card advantage. When I played against things that they wouldn't be good against, they became 3x slots that were auto-tosses to FoW, letting me keep my other draw and disruption without hesitation.
As to what you said, Zombies, I agree. That's exactly what I meant. I think it will help, because a resolved Vial is a bit of a problem for us.
Personally, I think in a mirror match that Angel has a bit more marit than you give it credit for, even though it's symmetrical. They get to untap Goyf. You get Angel AND Goyf, giving you Goyf-Wall and 3 damage a turn with evasion AND a wall for a Goose each turn (although be careful with that, as burn sux, such as Fire//Ice. Fire would be bad news here, wiping out both Angel and Goyf if you blocked a Goose with Angel). Worst-case scenario, they have a Mystic Enforcer out. StP much?
Pce,
--DC
Now THAT is a ridiculous argument. Manamorphose indeed gives you tougher mulligan-decisions and costs GG to cast.
Your cantrip argument becomes redundant because you are neglecting what other cantrips do: They generate MASSIVE cardquality before they draw a card (Ponder, Portent) and therefore allow you to dig for solutions. Manamorphose can't.
Brainstorm is a special case, it turns "useless" cards in hand into useful resources via Fetchlands or sometimes Ponder and Portent (because they can also shuffle crap away, that's the cool thing about them).
If you are looking for additional cantrips, Portent is the way to go but Manamorphose definitely is crap. It's as reasonable as playing Street Wraith...
edit: Damn, reading = t3ch, didn't notice 3 people were faster than me. Anyway, I'm the 4th then.
edit2: Angel - Enforcer debate: I guess the Angel is again hyped like hell, it doesn't prevent the opponent to swing with 8+ Goblins once which is already enough to kill you. If you are looking for a card that somehow hinders Goblins to attack you, stick to Dueling Grounds. It's also tech because Enforcer can still smash his face while they can't harm you because your Goyf kills everything.
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
Erg...I should have taken the extra 30 seconds or so to not look like an idiot.
Eh, oh well. Can't be a jenius every day of the year.
Pce,
--DC
EDIT::: What's the commonly played sideboard look like right now?
Xx Trygon Predator
Xx Meddling Mage (I'm assuming this is still used over Runed Halo/Teeg)
Xx Wheel of Sun and Moon///Tormod's Crypt (which for yard hate?)
Xx ??? (What else?)
Xx ??? (Anything?)
Pce 2x,
--DC
Last edited by Dark_Cynic87; 09-08-2008 at 08:49 AM. Reason: questions...
I have to agree with this in many meta's running enchantment hate main is key. I have shown up to events with Tygon Predator main because I knew countertop would be in full force and did well because of it.
Actually I would argue that Street Wraith is better than Manamorphose in Thresh as it cycles for only 2 life, puts a creature in the yard for goyf, and can provide surprise threshhold. That said it doesn't make sense either and all reasons stated above against both cards are valid.
@Suckerpunch: What are you trying to accomplish with Manamorphose?
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