I'm going to assume you're playing some number of Stifles and Wastelands by your lack of a decklist. So with that assumption being made, Agro-Loam is not a good matchup. Their creatures are usually bigger than yours, Assault is a pain in the ass and they have recurring Wastelands if it goes to the lategame. Basically I would advise you to attack their manabase and force them to walk things like Terravore, Assault and Crusher into Daze. Save Bolts for Goyf stalemates or Crushers. Try to limit their resolution of Loam however you can. Postboard, bring in Crypts to mess with Loam.
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Originally Posted by FakeSpam
thanks. my list is basically thrash save for
-1 wasteland (i only own 3)
-1 spell snare
-1 fire/ice
-1 wipe away
+3 quirion dryad
+1 rushing river
im still trying to fit in the 4th snare in main deck.
I think that play UGR Threshold in a metagame full of Aggro Loam cant be a suicide, the best cards for Threshold for defeating aggro loam are Wheel of sun and moon and Mind harness, including if you hope tons of aggro loam you can play 2 mind harness in main deck.
The matchup won't get better, Aggroloam plays cards like Chalice and Blood Moon as well. And their creatures are all bigger than your's.
They have solutions for Wheel of Sun and Moon as well: Burning Wish.
Let's take a look at Christian Hangel's list who won this month's Hassloch event:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=19217
4 Chalice, 11 creatures which are equal to/bigger than your creatures, Burning Wish for everything, Devastating Dreams to annihilate your whole board...
There are no Blood Moons in that list, but it still kicks the shit out of Thrash.
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
As you may know, I won the Source tournament with Swan/Moon Thresh. The report is here.
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So I like the list I run, but it's not a CB list, and I'd like at least a sample (but well-built) UGr CounterTop Thresh list so that I can make the appropriate changes to my build.
My build:
Creatures-10
4x Goyf
4x Mongoose
2x Trygon Predator
Spells-32
4x FoW
4x Daze
4x Stifle
2x Spell Snare
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Fire//Ice
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
2x Rushing River
Land--18
2x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand
2x Wooded Foothills
4x Tropical Island
3x Volcanic Island
4x Wasteland
1x Island
Pretty basic, although if Goblins get any more popular, or beat my ass one more time, I'm dropping the Rushing Rivers for Pyroclasms. I'm about sick of the little green bastards. Either that or Goblin Pyromancer in place of the Predators, lol.
So, any idea on what to drop out of my list if I were to go Counterbalance/Top route? I'm just tired of not doing so hot against Landstill, and I'm thinking I'd do better with CB. I know that people have mixed feelings as to how well CB performs in this particular matchup, but I think it's GOT to be better with it. Then I could save my forces and whatnot for what my CB can't hit (read: Humility, Deed, Wish OR FoF, etc.). Stifle is good against UWB or UWx Landstill, and it helps a LOT in this matchup. It's so beautiful.
Is there a Threshold list that runs 'Nought? Has anyone thought about doing something like this? LMK...
Thanks for the help ahead of time.
Pce,
--DC
@Dark_Cynic87: If you want to go towards the Counterbalance route, I'd just recommend that you drop Red completely unless you want to play 5c Thresh. Moon Thresh isn't so hot right now, but Swan Thresh, however, might be something you should look into if you want to play Counterbalance and Red. I lack experience with Swan Thresh, so I wouldn't know what to think of it.
If you have trouble against Goblins, play anti-Needle cards like Krosan Grips, Pithing Needles, and/or Ancient Grudge. Pyroclasms are really good too, and are also amazing against Ichorid. Sadly, Ichorid might be dying, and the rise of Goyf Sligh is on the rise. This will mean lots of Price of Progress and Figure of Destinies. You could replace the Pyroclasms with Hydroblasts, which help your Dragon Stompy match-up, Goyf Sligh match-up, improve your Aggro Loam match-up, and have a decent Goblins match-up.
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I've been playing swan thresh for most of the summer, and it plays very nicely. You get plenty of burn plus counter/top to lock out aggro, and you get an extra threat vs control. I use the moon thresh mana base (4 delta, 4 foothills, 4 trop, 3 volcanic, 2 island, 1 forest) and sb some moon effects. I've been able to slaughter decks like 4c Landstill this way, and I have resilience against the dragon stompy decks and other manabase-hating decks in the meta. It's a nice change of pace, and can do very well.
Edit: @Dark Cynic: You want to change your manabase to 6 blue fetches, I think. Right now, the foothills can't get the basic island. AS for dreadnought, it seems too inconsistent for a deck that wins with its consistency. Maybe in the sb for the MUs where stifle isn't as useful?
Maybe I am just wanting Swan Thresh. I didn't like the combo, but that was when I very first picked up the deck, at GenCon. I suppose I could try it again. Also, I didn't know an exact decklist, so I just Left Swans in for Ancestral abilities and flying over shit.
Could I see your/a SwanThresh list? It'd be helpful, as I have no clue what to do to get to Swan Thresh. I don't know if I'll go the moon route just yet as I play against Dragon Stompy and Ichorid, both matchups where it's damn near useless. I'll use a Moon-Ready manabase, but not Moons.
Switched my manabase to 6x Blue Fetches (3/3 split). I'd just seen a list I liked and it ran fetches at 2/2/2 and figured it was for against needles or something. I was/am relatively new to the list and am not completely up to speed on how people combat it. I figured that attacking the manabase might have been a strategy used by some common list. I was clueless. Now I see the guy probably just didn't have the blue fetches or something.
LMK and Pce,
--DC
No, the guy was playing no basic islands, so all 3 different fetches could find every land. You run a basic island, so you need fetches that get islands so you can find it. My swan list is this:
2 Flooded strand
2 polluted delta
4 wooded foothills
4 tropical island
3 volcanic island
2 island
1 forest
4 nimble mongoose
4 goyf
3 swans
4 force
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 counterbalance
3 top
4 lightning bolt
3 chain of plasma
1 lightning storm
3 daze
2 spell snare (these are open slots that are metagame calls)
sb:
EE, pyroclasm, grips, blue/red blasts, crypts, magus of the / blood moon
No Stifle or Fire//Ice? Do you miss it? Does 3x Chain feel like the right number (I always thought people used 2x)? I don't mean to question, I'm just trying to get comfortable with it. How often does the combo kill come into play? Is it the normal way of winning? How often does it win vs. a Goyf/Goose win?
What's a good combatant vs. Ichorid and Dragon Stompy for the 2x Spell Snare Slot? I realize that Spell Snare is good vs. CotV and Jitte, but virtually useless vs. Ichorid (these are my two most common matchups here). I also play against Spring Tide, burn and a Zoo build, but the top 2 are DS and Ichorid.
Thanks for the list. I think I'll give it a go. Also, can anyone tell me the difference in the terms "thresh" and "thrash"?
Pce,
--DC
Thresh: typical threshold lists, generally of the 'oldschool', counterbalance, moon, and swan variety.
Thrash: Stifle-Waste tempo thresh.
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If it's all in our heads, it's best that we don't loose them.
The combo is there really to just give you that "Oops, I win" factor. The combo doesn't go off that often, and sometimes Swans is just a 4/3 with evasion or FoW food. Most wins are just beats + burn while countering threats. 3x Chain is good because 24 points of burn MD gives you more reach. I've killed people with domed Chain well there's a standstill creature-wise. I don't have enough experience with the deck to give you a ratio of combo vs beats wins. Nihil should chime in here.
So... I have been playing a carbon copy of Nihil's Swan thresh for like a couple days now (got bored of my current project)... and it seems rather good.
I have a couple questions though, that hopefully someone here can answer for me:
1. A resolved counterbalance, the only out in the MD is to either counter it or the top... against another thresh player, this is a loosing battle. Has anyone considered a few bounce spells/grips/whathaveyou to stop this in the MD?
2. Ichorid = extremely bad times... I know that this has always been so for red threshold, however, is there a way to remedy this aside from the obvious (play something else)?
3. Swan, a two of or three of? I have been having mixed feelings, as I always have an extra one to spare, which is sometimes a hassle, and sometimes a blessing.
Suggestions/answers would be appreciated!
Swans Thresh
By Kevin Liu
Influenced By Nihil Credo
// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [MR] Forest (3)
3 [B] Volcanic Island
2 [A] Tropical Island
2 [RAV] Island (2)
// Creatures
2 [SHM] Swans of Bryn Argoll
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
// Spells
3 [NE] Daze
2 [U] Lightning Bolt
3 [ON] Chain of Plasma
1 [BOK] Disrupting Shoal
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [OD] Predict
2 [PS] Rushing River
3 [LRW] Ponder
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [CS] Counterbalance
1 [CS] Lightning Storm
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 3 [OV] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
I basically replaced blood moon/ruination with price of progress to punish 3-5 color decks for reaching. With several fetchlands and only five dual lands, I imagine playing a resolved price of progress wouldn't hurt too bad.
The singleton disrupting shoal interacts like a 5th force of will which can come in handy in matchups. It's been testing smoothly so far but I might replace it with something else later on like for maybe a 3rd predict or a 4th ponder.
Rushing river can be useful in the mirror since it bounces powerful critters and as well as temporarily removing a threshold diminishing enchantment can do wonders as well.
Obviously, hydroblast serves as a utilizing purpose against aggro loam like countering their burning wishes and devastating dreams can be huge.
As for engineered explosives they can also help in the mirror but I am still contemplating if they are actually main deck worthy.
Team Hammafist!
I don't know where to begin:
1) The Manabase: O.K., you are playing 2 Islands and a Forest which will make you less vulnerable against Moon-Effects, so why are you not playing them in the SB? (Magus and/or Moon)
2) The 2 Swans: I'd raise them to 3 as they are a good beater as well and turns your Burnspells into CA.
3) 3 Daze, 1 Shoal: O, thats possible, but the last time I used to play that constellation was.. 2 years before where you really had to counter Aether Vial because Goblins was the most played deck in Legacy at that time. I guess I simply have a different approach on the right number of Daze (I'd always play 4), but I'd kick that Shoal for at least a 4th Ponder.
4) Ponder: Play 4!!! Ponder is the card that gave Threshold a lot more consistency and it allows you to play aggressive by finding critters which you can play in the same turn (Portent can't do that), "tutor" for Burnspells and finding combopieces. It may sound ridiculous that I emphasize how important Ponder is to Threshold, but it is vital to have more consistency.
5) Rushing River and Lightning Bolt: I don't really like the 2/2 split-configuration since this falsifies the deck's concept. I see you would like to be more tempo-ish, but this split can't be a solution since you won't be able to switch between 2 roles efficiently (aggro-role <-> control-role).
That is also what I like about the deck: You can often choose which role you want to play, whether you simply play critters and beat your opponent down altogether with Burn to the dome or simply out-control him with Counterbalance.
The Explosives seem to be ok, I don't play them since I don't have enough space for them. I'd stick to Nihil's list (my list looks like the same anyway, except that he's playing 2 Spell Snare instead of 2 Predict).
My list looks like this:
// Lands
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [A] Island (1)
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [B] Volcanic Island
// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
3 [SHM] Swans of Bryn Argoll
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
// Spells
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [B] Lightning Bolt
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [ON] Chain of Plasma
1 [CS] Lightning Storm
2 [OD] Predict
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [10E] Pyroclasm
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [B] Red Elemental Blast
-> Different Manabase, -1 Land, +1 Daze, -2 Spell Snare, +2 Predict.
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
There are only a few customizable slots in the MD: I picked Spell Snare for precisely this reason - a flexible tool that also improves your chances in the Counterbalance war. Your maindeck is about as prepared for that fight as the average Threshold lists.
Postside, your tools for the mirror match are Red Elemental Blasts and Blood Moon.
Wait two weeks and you'll get to supplement Tormod's Crypt with the new Shards of Alara artifact. Beyond 4 Crypts and Pyroclasm, it will be your best additional inclusion.2. Ichorid = extremely bad times... I know that this has always been so for red threshold, however, is there a way to remedy this aside from the obvious (play something else)?
Having three makes me more comfortable with pitching one to Force early, knowing that I have decent chances of finding a second if necessary.3. Swan, a two of or three of? I have been having mixed feelings, as I always have an extra one to spare, which is sometimes a hassle, and sometimes a blessing.
Stifle is a good card, but without a primary plan of land destruction (i.e. no Wastelands to back it up) a Spell Snare covers more important stuff.
Fire//Ice, with the Ice side severely weakened by the lack of a tempo strategy, is comparable to Chain of Plasma in power; the combo utility of Chain tips the scales in its favour. It's not an unreasonable consideration for the flexible (i.e. Spell Snare) slot.
I feel OK with three, myself. They're essentially Incinerates, and they kill a lot of stuff.Does 3x Chain feel like the right number (I always thought people used 2x)? I don't mean to question, I'm just trying to get comfortable with it.
You go for the combo maybe once in four or five games against control and the mirror; half that or less often against aggro. It's a Plan B that comes to rescue you when, for whatever reason, your green guys have failed to go through the red zone.How often does the combo kill come into play? Is it the normal way of winning? How often does it win vs. a Goyf/Goose win?
I think I'm stating the obvious here, but Ichorid and Dragon Stompy are two of the worst matchups for any Thresh variant. Moreover you'll want to side out Swans of Bryn Argoll, like anything that costs 4+ mana, against every matchup you listed except Dragon Stompy. This is probably not the thread you want to be in. Finally, Blood Moon is useless against every deck you listed except Zoo.What's a good combatant vs. Ichorid and Dragon Stompy for the 2x Spell Snare Slot? I realize that Spell Snare is good vs. CotV and Jitte, but virtually useless vs. Ichorid (these are my two most common matchups here). I also play against Spring Tide, burn and a Zoo build, but the top 2 are DS and Ichorid.
Anyway, if for whatever reason you want to go ahead with Swan Thresh, turn those Snares into Engineered Explosives, sideboard the third copy plus 4 BEBs, and good luck.
Your mana curve severely worries me. Compared to the list I've been playing, your changes are mostly towards more expensive cards (Out: 1 land, 2 Bolt, 2 Snare, 1 Ponder, 1 Swans; In: 1 Shoal, 2 Predict, 2 Rushing River, 2 Engineered Explosives). I think you'll end up with clogged hands far too often.
PoP is a lot more narrow than Blood Moon, because it can only reliably attack control decks. Blood Moon is a bomb in the Counterbalance mirror, against Thrash, against CounterSlivers, against Doran Rock, etc. etc.I basically replaced blood moon/ruination with price of progress to punish 3-5 color decks for reaching. With several fetchlands and only five dual lands, I imagine playing a resolved price of progress wouldn't hurt too bad.
I can't comment on Disrupting Shoal since i never played with it, but you absolutely want 4 Ponders. Find room for them - you run Predict, by the gods.The singleton disrupting shoal interacts like a 5th force of will which can come in handy in matchups. It's been testing smoothly so far but I might replace it with something else later on like for maybe a 3rd predict or a 4th ponder.
Bounce sucks here: you don't play the tempo role nearly as well as Thrash. In those few situations where you'll want to sacrifice card advantage to bounce a couple of blockers or a lock piece, running the other Lightning Bolts will be almost as good, and they will prove more useful in nearly every other situation.Rushing river can be useful in the mirror since it bounces powerful critters and as well as temporarily removing a threshold diminishing enchantment can do wonders as well.
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Well I am more of a control player so that's why I find rushing river good for me. I am just trying to incorporate valid disruption for opposing tarmogoyfs, counterbalances, and mystic enforcers considering lightning bolts and chain of plasma will not always get there for me in terms of efficiency removal. Tempo or not rushing river can break those classified stalemates without the conditional value and that's something I like to see when playing threshold.
As for the spell snare vs counter war debate. I think spell snare is becoming less adequate in the mirror considering thoughtseize is becoming more of a popular maindeck choice in threshold. Aside from counterbalance, thoughtseize has several exploitation avenues in the mirror. Although, spell snare still has its merits and relevant roles in legacy.
I admit Nihil that you do make valid points about the inclusion of blood moon over pop and I agree with your points. Considering blood moon does in fact disrupt a field of utilizing lands and will help immensely in the thrash matchup much more then pop would ever be of equal value.
However, since I play against aggro loam and landstill quite a bit. I would prefer price of progress over blood moon. Based on my experience with both PoP and/or moon effects, I find myself putting away the loam or the landstill matchup with just by resolving a pop. While on the other hand in a blood moon perspective, both landstill and aggro loam can just bypass the bloody effect with their respective manabase stabalization tools. In other words, as you can see my sideboard is based off of what I play against frequently. Otherwise, I wouldn't even consider running price of progress. Blood moon does play a more relevant role then PoP does if you would throw either one in a metagame vacuum. But even so price of progess is still in fact a huge metagame spell.
Last edited by Mister Agent; 09-15-2008 at 06:11 PM.
Team Hammafist!
In an important tourney from France (204 Players) 2 UGR Threshold made top 8.
Lists
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
4 [R] Tropical Island
// Creatures
3 [OD] Werebear
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
// Spells
2 [MR] Chrome Mox
3 [4E] Lightning Bolt
3 [OD] Standstill
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [JU] Mental Note
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [NE] Daze
3 [LRW] Ponder
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [SC] Stifle
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [OV] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [R] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [IA] Pyroclasm
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa’s Jitte
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [CH] Tormod’s Crypt
and
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Wasteland
1 Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Werebear
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Counterspell
4 Ponder
3 Mental Note
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice
3 Stifle
Sideboard:
2 Pyroclasm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Tormod’s Crypt
3 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
Both lists share mental note and counterspell .
Is time to return these cards to the main build ?
Where can I find the T8 list ?
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