@Emidln
So Ad Nauseum based combo doesn't have a good match up against any deck in the format, but Ad Nauseum is certain to get banned?
@Brehn
"Your storm engine costs 5 mana as opposed to the 5-7 mana of Doomsday, not too much of an improvement"
Seriously, are you trying to tell us you don't know how significant 2 mana is to a combo deck?
@Orim's Chant
Orim's Chant was good because Orim's Chant dealt with Ill Gotten Gain's and Diminishing Return's draw backs of either recurring or drawing the opponent into permission, but now that Ad Nauseum doesn't have that draw back you should be concentrating on discard and Red blasts to deal with Counterbalance.
Originally Posted by wastedlife
Read his post again. He never said that.
1) Doomsday works with 5 mana under some circumstances.@Brehn
(...)
2) The lower mana cost comes with some drawbacks. I don't think the reduced cost will outweigh them.
Team SPOD[23:08:50] <@Anusien> You want me to actually test?
[23:09:02] <frogboy> I thought you already had
I don't know if I necessarily agree with your assessment of Ad Nauseum. Ad Nauseum seems to trump Stifle by letting you draw into more discard, and seems to trump discard as you just build up resources until you can go Mystical -> AdN and win. That's not to say that Thrash or Eva Green are going to be good matchups, but it also doesn't mean that AdN is a bad card by any means. I mean, it's basically a one card combo that wins the game on the spot if it resolves. That's absolutely insane.
Also, Chant also doesn't seem especially good against Ad Nauseum; the AdN player just sculpts a perfect hand and passes the turn, forcing you to win or find more disruption. I mean, Chant is definitely decent against AdN, don't get me wrong. But Chant seems even better alongside AdN, as it answers basically every card you've listed.
AdN will be used in some combo lists. It is not right for this one. This one is based on shuffle effects, filtering and Tutoring; not draw. Draw is SI, QSI and TES. While it is my opinion out of those 3 that TES is the best, I won't play it BECAUSE of it's reliance on drawing cards. I would MUCH rather tutor than I would draw. Drawing adds randomness to lists that I would rather not count on to win. Tutoring >>>>>>>>> Draw. That's why I think TES is the best. They run B. Wish and Infernal Tutor along with a few shuffle effects and filtering, but in the end it's a Draw-4/Draw-7 and now a draw-X for the win. Something I won't tolerate in my combo list. It's too easy to get screwed over by random shit your deck throws at you.
I don't see chant ever becoming irrelevant in a combo deck barring the banning of Force of Will and Daze, which obviously won't happen. I like discard also, but I'm going to say that Chant is what makes this deck thrive. Ever play against Burn? Not chanting on turn 3 (Enough time for burn to get you down into single digits) can cost you the game. Same against UGr Thrash. Burn beats you if you don't chant. With this I'm referring to D-Day, but the concept remains true with a card that has a life-loss clause, which AdN absolutely has. I played against a good build today (SI-ish but with Ponders and Brainstorms) on MWS, and it beat me once turn 1 on the play. I couldn't do jack. However, without the Nutz draw, my deck (DDFT) is absolutely god against it. Chanting after they draw a crap-ton of cards with AdN is awesome. They discard down, you can Duress OR better yet, tutor for another Chant, tap top into it and then feel free to sit and dig as long as you like for your Tendrils as long as you keep W open. They can't do jack, especially with a Brainstorm in your hand to ward off their discard.
Also, Brandon, that new tech we, or at least I am testing, did extremely well in this matchup also. It's actually what killed him, I didn't even combo off one of the games. I beat him over the head with it for about 6 turns ftw.
This guy even ran 2x IGG md, which is what the list I proposed did. He could combo off the old IGG/IT way if he needed too. I wish I would have got his list because it did fairly well. It's mirror match sux, but it can be good. I would absolutely splash for white, drop the discard and run 4x Chant over any other form of protection.
He had to pass the turn after AdN'ing, and he was VERY low on life (2, I believe). Against anything that can deal damage in any amount of timely fashion (i.e. anything that has SOMETHING to turn sideways), that sucks significantly worse than being at 2 life with DDFT, as if you are at 2 life, you are probably comboing off for CERTAIN. That is how it works. You aren't trying to blindly draw into your win.
Also, calling AdN a "storm engine" is rediculously misleading. It is in NO WAY a storm engine. It's a Draw-spell, pure and simple. D-Day and IGG are Storm enablers, as they build up a storm count. AdN simply puts you in a possible position to get storm count. I am not sure if I'm repeating myself in saying the next thing, but if I am, it could use repeating anyway. A well-timed chant after a heftily invested-in AdN is devastating for any deck playing it. The fact that it is 5cc forces you to overinvest life into it so that it pays off, otherwise you wouldn't be playing it; you would be okay with drawing 7 for 4 mana, or 4 for 3 mana. It's one of those "danger of cool things" cards.
I think it will be broken, but I do think you are going about it in the wrong way when you aren't running chant. It's NECESSARY.
Think about it, the 2 most popular storm lists (FT varients and TES) both run a full set. The ones that AREN'T as popular don't (SI and QSI). I know that the lists have extremely different card choices all-around, but I must point out that they do run discard, a form of protection, and still they fizzle more and get disrupted easier.
It might be wiser to try and squeeze this card into something like Dark Tide. Resets would probably be the choice over Turnabout due to the 4cc of Turnabout. Hmm. It could be an option. Dark Rituals would be used of course, and it still could maintain it's instant-speed win with it. Doesn't sound too bad, and 5 mana is nothing to those lists. That might be the more viable option for it.
So, out of all my rambling, the point is that it's not for FT. You could build a list that resembles FT, but in it's current state it doesn't fit, nor does it compliment the current strategy. The current strategy is more than satisfactory. Why fix what isn't broken?
AdN needs to leave the thread for now. Maybe in the future it could see play, but at this point it's not going to happen. It's just to left-field for the build.
Pce,
--DC
You're right, I misread the quote.
Doomsday is expensive, the Infernal Tutor + Doomsday + Sensei's DiviningTop + Meditate chain is at least 9 mana, the difference is Doomsday can split up its mana investment over multiple turns by either casting Sensei's Divining Top first or passing the turn after Doomsday. Even the Doomsday + Sensei's Divining Top into Brainstorm and 2xLion's Eye Diamond piles require a minimum of 5 mana and relies on having the perfect combination of mana and spells in hand when you go off.
AdN isn't as conditional, it's just a flat 5cc = win, which takes all of the mini-interactions out of the equation and reduces human error.
@ Dark Cynic
You're way, way, way out in left field.
The combo vs combo match up is irrelevant, the combo vs aggro-control and control match ups are what you need to prepare for. If maximizing your aggro-control and control match ups comes down to using disruption that pre-empts Counterbalance, then all combo decks remove Orim's Chant for Duress regardless. There's no reason to be concerned with combo decks meta gaming for other combo decks, it's just a ridiculous after thought considering the popularity of Land/Dreadstill and Threshold.
People's unwillingness to cut Orim's Chant just shows their inexperience with Storm combo in other formats, with out Doomsday, Ill Gotten Gains or Diminishing Returns there isn't a need for it.
The AdN, Diminishing Returns and Draw 4 engine trade volatility for speed, and if you aren't comfortable with trading volatility for speed in combo, then your trading certainty for less speed and less speed = more disruption. The whole "AdN isn't a Storm engine" argument is kind of pointless, so Yawgmoth's Bargain and Necropotence aren't Storm engines because they draw cards? Whatever tutors for or draws into your Storm count and your kill condition is your Storm engine, let's not redefine the wheel here.
I do agree FT is defined by the Doomsday and Sensei's Divining Top interaction, but asking whether or not the Doomsday and Sensei's Divining Top interaction is better than AdN is relevant.
It's exactly 8 (+1 for Top, if you want to count that). And it's been a while since I've tutored for Doomsday with Infernal. I also don't play Infernal main atm. Usually Doomsday costs 5, 6 or 7.
No.AdN isn't as conditional, it's just a flat 5cc = win
Drawing cards =/= winning. Especially if you're paying huge amounts of life for it. In order to win after AdN you need a deck with a really low curve and you need to be in the higher regions of life total. Can you win on 14 life with AdN if you're opponent is holding a bolt? I doubt it.
If you're saying
"Even the Doomsday + Sensei's Divining Top into Brainstorm and 2xLion's Eye Diamond piles require a minimum of 5 mana and relies on having the perfect combination of mana and spells in hand when you go off."
I could say
"The process of winning the game with Ad Nauseam requires exactly 5 mana and relies on having a perfect combination of superfluous mana artifacts in your deck and high enough life totals with respect to your opponent's available instant-speed 'disruption' (Lightning Bolt?) and his current board state (are you really able to pass the turn?)"
Thing is, you might be able to win on turn 2 or turn 3 with AdN. But you are most probably not able to win on turn 6 of a real game anymore. DDFT has to win before fetchlands and the opponent have dealt a total of 18 damage. ANFT has to win before fetchlands and the opponent have dealt a total of X damage, with X < 18. X is different for every ANFT build. How big is it for the ones you are testing?
Five? Say hello to your 14%-matchup UGr Thresh, then build another deck.
Nine? You can work on that, but do you really consistently goldfish with protection before turn 5?
Fifteen? That'd be good, but it won't work. You'd just flip another Ad Nauseam or Tendrils + Brainstorm and lose.
BtW, at that Duress vs. Chant argument: have you never encountered Thresh players who just Brainstorm/activate Top into Force after you've Duress'ed them?
Team SPOD[23:08:50] <@Anusien> You want me to actually test?
[23:09:02] <frogboy> I thought you already had
I'm not talking about playing against Chant. I'm talking about running Chant over Duress/Thoughtseize/Pact of Negation. Chant is a fundamentally different type of proactive anti-hate card than targetted discard. It functions much better against opponents who play not only countermagic, but also Burn, Stifle effects, and instant-speed manipulation (Brainstorm, Sensei's Top). Just because you Duress their FoW or Counterspell doesn't mean they won't burn you out, stifle Tendrils, or just draw into a different hard counter. Chant actually forces them to have a hard counter or lose the game (excepting weird activated abilities).
Edit:
@ Breathweapon
I highly recommend playing both Orim's Chants and Duresses. Not playing 8 disruption is kinda silly because you need different disruption for different things. Duress is good against CB but absolutely abysmal if you're trying to combo on turn 3+ when your opponent might very well have cards besides Force of Will that matter.
If you had experience with storm combo in other formats you would know that Chant was heavily played in TEPS for two seasons. This is because Extended, like Legacy, has a multitude of threats that 1 for 1 disruption like Thoughtseize and Duress didn't always solve. In Vintage, Chant sees some play in fast storm combo but its use is heavily limited by the presence of Misdirection in vintage control decks. This turns the common effect into Xantid Swarm for most people looking for the blanket coverage that Chant provides given the lack of post-board hate for swarm from control decks.
For the record, the variant of doomsday that Dark_Cynic is testing really skirts the line between Threshold and Tendrils Combo. It is not attempting to metagame for enemy combo decks, it plays the cards that it plays to beat the Threshold and Dreadstill decks. That doing so happens to crush enemy combo decks is a byproduct of strong design and strategy overlap.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
We just see Storm from different perspectives, you want to "sand bag" into Doomsday on turn 3+ while I want to "win" with Ad Nauseum on turn 1+. With an average CC of appr 1, I don't see aggro ever putting me into the red zone before I can go off with Ad Nauseum, and the entire argument just seems totally moot because you'd either MD or SB into Ill Gotten Gains or Diminishing Returns and stomp on their nuts games 2/3 if it's a problem.
If the opponent can resolve Sensei's Divining Top and Brainstorm and hide Force of Will, and I'm stupid enough to not realize what he's doing, then he deserves to win. You face these problems because the FT style decks just don't put any pressure on their opponents. The "what ifs" behind Duress aren't nearly as important as ripping Counterbalance, like ever. Counters aren't the problem, Counterbalance is the problem.
Edit @ Emidln.
Orim's Chant is never, ever used in Vintage because it does nothing to address Stax.
Orim's Chant was used in Extended for Time Walking aggro more than 2x Stifle or 2xSpellsnare scenarios, which isn't that relevant if you're winning before turn 4, IMO.
Eh, it seems pointless to argue, the way you guys play FT is to sand bag into the win, AdN encourages the exact opposite.
Owen Turtenwald and Jeff Folinus seem to have put up recent results that disagree with you. He also seems to think that when constructing a deck, you should not attempt to confuse roles for cards. Hurkyl's Recall and Rebuild are there to solve Stax. Orim's Chant is used to solve the combo mirror and the control matchup.
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=36170.0
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=36125.0
I'm sure if I look harder, I can find more combo decks playing Chant. I believe Smmenen might have even written about it in a GrimLong article.
Apparently you never ran into a deck that played counterspells. While I was playing in top8s and during top8 contention, I ran into quite a few counterspell and stifle decks. Orim's Chant was really good against these decks. Incidentally, Orim's Chant was also good on my turn 4 with Lotus Bloom's trigger on the stack (to stop artifact destruction). It was good as a time walk as well, but the major reason to play it was always the ubiquity of blue.Orim's Chant was used in Extended for Time Walking, which isn't that relevant if you're winning before turn 4, IMO.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
I'm not talking about aggro. I'm talking about AggroControl with a clock.
In order to make an AN deck work (in theory) you need to do the following:
- Determine the value of "X", which I've used in my last post, via goldfishing.
- Determine how fast you can goldfish with protection.
Then compare the results and try to imagine if you can beat Threshold. After this, start playtesting.
I've heard a lot of babbling from you in the last days. First you wanted to build TPS with Thoughtseize and Forces. Now you're advocating to build an aggressive version of FT. You've always just said: "Resolved AN = win". But that's not true. It's only true if your life is high enough, and you haven't yet made any statements about the amount of life totals required for winning with AN in any of your lists.
You've posted two lists in the other thread. Both of them play fewer disruption than TES. The only deck that gets away with playing fewer disruption than TES is Belcher, which a) is bad, b) goes off turn 1. I wonder how you want to resolve AN while playing a ridiculous amount of 4 disruption spells. If this is the direction you want to take FT, I can only say "good luck". Because luck is what you need with these lists, in the same way as Belcher has always needed and will always need luck. I've built 2 decks with AN that kill on turn 1 - turn 2 as well, it's not very hard. But I don't consider them good, because they play a maximum of 4 disruption spells with limited ways of searching for them. Worse than TES, I say.
Edit: Also, please stop talking about other formats if you have no clue. I remember you saying that it was common in Extended to put a Rite of Flame in your Burning Wish-board and it should be thus done the same way in Legacy. Wanted to say something about Chant but emidln was faster.
Team SPOD[23:08:50] <@Anusien> You want me to actually test?
[23:09:02] <frogboy> I thought you already had
He's taking Belcher philosophy and throwing it at FT. Obviously lacking in the experience department of playing a control-build of FT, I can see where he's coming from. He's wrong, but I get his standpoint.
I think that blind, non-filter drawing is crap in non-High Tide storm lists. That's just me.
Pce,
--DC
I'm not going to get into a I know X format better than you argument, I've ran Vintage storm decks longer than most people have even played the format, Orim's Chant is terrible in Stax metagames. I'm not a 100% expert on TEPS, but I remember a Rite of Flame being in the SB for awhile, right after Simian Spirit Guide was released, and it doesn't change the fact that Orim's Chant was being used in TEPS for different reasons than it's being used in TES and FT. Orim's Chant isn't a defacto choice over Duress, it has to be addressing either an innate weakness of the deck or it has to be addressing the format's disruption. In this format, the disruption you need to be addressing is Counterbalance, because Ad Nauseum is more or less immune to Stifle and counters aren't as devastating as lock pieces.
I've tested Ad Nauseum in over a dozen shells, re-adjusting my view points as I've collected empirical data. I'm not going to pull some random number out of my ass regarding the CC and life thresholds, because it's pointless considering the number of variables in game. You have to do your own testing and come to your own conclusions.
You don't need 8 pieces of disruption if you win before turn 3 or use Empty the Warrens to force counters onto acceleration, and if you can't win after you cast Ad Nauseum it's usually your own fault. It's not like Storm decks can't use Ad Nauseum, Ill Gotten Gains, Diminishing Returns and Empty the Warrens, if you've got red zone problems then you've still got outs. I never said the lists I posted were finished either, even tho' it's not difficult to build a deck that wins on the second turn with Ad Nauseum, it's incredibly difficult to optimize a deck that does it.
If all you've heard from me is rambling, than all I've heard from you is bitching.
@DC
I'm competent with FT, I was running the 4 Doomsday control lists before Emidln if you scroll way back.
The problem is we aren't on the same page, while you're thinking about putting Ad Nauseum into FT, I'm thinking about redesigning Storm combo around Ad Nauseum. Obviously you can't replace Doomsday with Ad Nauseum in FT, the question is whether or not FT's game plan and card selection is still relevant when confronted with Ad Nauseum and design imperatives that shift us into a more aggressive paradigm.
Well, considering the options, you can go one of two routes with FT:
1.) D-Day, a more controll-ish build that is slower but more resilient to discard, counterspells, and other disruption such as Mages and Teegs, CB (to a point), and Chalice,
OR
2.) Balls-to-the-Wall. Doesn't need resiliency to disruption as it expects to only see 1x FoW/Daze, one Duress/Seize/Hymn, or maybe a chant or Teeg/Mage.
There is no happy medium. There probably never will be.
I think it's time it split in two different directions, obviously the ones just stated. Two different threads. Just like there are 3 or more threshthreshthreshthreshthresh threads, there should be multiple FT threads. One of the main reasons I feel this way is because I think DDFT is specialized at a control-oriented metagame. A more aggressive list is for a field of aggro-ish builds. While you can play both in either format, they both obviously have their strengths and weaknesses.
This thread gets hijacked all the time because people fail to realize that no one's telling them (well, sometimes they are) to play one or the other because it's better, when in fact this isn't the case.
I think people overlook metagame calls all the time. This happens to be one of them. If I played against goblins all the time, I'd be MORE than happy to run the SW/IGG version simply because it's got an 80%-ish win turn 2. I don't though, and I see a bit of Thresh and DS. I have to play a more controlled build, or I would get SLAUGHTERED. Oh, and Ichorid. They have LotV and that sux. They also have Pithing Needle for Top, and that sux, but it's easier to deal with 4/12 of my "draw" spells being fucked with than it is to not have a graveyard when IGG is your main storm enabler.
Any thoughts on the idea of a second thread for more aggressive FT lists? It's really been getting on my nerves and I'm glad I finally had the opportunity of at least mentioning it.
Pce,
--DC
How many of us actually play and work with the deck, though? I mean, you, me, Bren, Breathweapon, Jahmino, emidln, and whit3_ghost? We as a group should be able to see what you (Dark Cynic) have said and debate it like civilized folk. Perhaps we could start by reposting 3 or 4 (a couple slow, a couple fast) builds and working on them from there? That along with a metagame description for when you should play each should be a very effective way to get this thread away from flaming each other and discussing each build's strengths and weaknesses.
Shall I start? I began with emidln's build a couple pages back and decided on a couple things: 1.)DDay>IT for the most part and 2.) That I wanted more accell. With this in mind, I tried out combinations of petal and c.rit increases and ended up with a manabase that looked like this:
4 LED
4 D. Rit
3 Petal
1 C. Rit
4 Strand
4 Delta
1 island
1 swamp
1 plains
1 sea
1 scrub
1 tundra
1 bayu
1 trop
For a total of 16 lands producing 4 colors and 12 accell that can mana-fix. I run the same cantrip base of:
4 brainstorm
4 SDT
4 Predict
and the same combo-enabler base of:
4 m. tutor
4 DDay
Then my protection package, which is a little lacking is:
4 Chant
3 Duress
1 K.Grip.
(then of course, there's the 2x draw4's and 1 tendrils and 1 IGG)
I've been debating the merrits of wipe away over K.grip and cutting the deck down to 3 colors, but honestly, the manabase is fine like this and I love siding up to 5 3cc split second counterbalance removers. The only chnge I would make to this deck would be to up the duress count to 4, but I'd have to cut a ponder to keep the manabase's balance that I like so much.
My SB has been a little up in the air, but I've been running:
3 K.grip
3 Serenity
1 extirpate
1 wipe
1 ET
1 R. River
1 HOA
1 GS
1 IT
1 IGG
1 slaughter pact
which handles many things very, very effectively.
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK
Why not up land by one and down petal by also one? If this is because of Moon, your base contradicts yourself, since you run the minimum of 3 basics for who plays Serenity and an unnecessary dual, Bayou.
Predict? Are you sure it's not Ponder? Predict sucks so much for this deck, it's not even worth mentioning.
and the same combo-enabler base of:
4 m. tutor
4 DDay
I'm on these very same numbers. I still got problems siding out some of these for some hate resiliency cards against non blue decks. How much of which should I take out, while keeping at least a single Chant for tutoring? Against which decks is it better to actually favor Chant in the place of Duress?
Against black decks, how far should I go to protect Doomsday from getting Extirpated? Siding out some against discard, while bringing in the 2 IGG, 1 IT package seems reasonable, but that seems a slower fish as far as graveyard hate is concerned. Recently, I lost 1-2 to survival because of double Therapy raping every game, Extirpate on Doomsday, surprise Chant SB tech and Faerie Macabre nulling my IGG possibilities. The 2 I lost were post SB ones, with all that fancy stuff.
Also, I have put IT back in the maindeck, since in those last games, I could've simply got mystical into it and won, as I had a big amount of accumulated acceleration in my hand and opponent wasn't able to disrupt my graveyard.
Finally, is anyone using a 5 ritual list (edited here) and still getting into situations that you must use Contract/Bargain, not Meditate, in a Doomsday pile?
Keep moon-walking.
Ok. My current build:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
1 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Mystical Tutor
2 Street Wraith
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Orim's Chant
4 Duress
1 Echoing Truth
1 Krosan Grip
3 Doomsday
1 Meditate
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
Notes:
- 8 disruption, Duress over Thoughtseize because I never really want to take creatures.
- No BBB draw 4. I've found that playing 2 draw 4s clogs up too many hands and I've yet to run into a situation when I can't go off because I can't cast Meditate after Doomsday.
- 2 Street Wraith. These can be replaced by everything - Lim-Dul's Vault, Grim Tutor, Predict, Lat-Nam's Legacy, Burning Wish etc. They're serving their purpose against decks where speed matters and against discard.
- Maindeck Echoing Truth: This was Extirpate earlier. But main Extirpate only really serves against Landstill - against Threshold you never want to tutor for it. Echoing Truth is not dead against Aggro and Threshold while also providing me with an out against preboard Meddling Mages - Fish sees some play here.
- Volcanic Island. This has been just here for hardcasting Grapeshot postboard since I've cut Empty the Warrens. Might be replaced with another land.
- 3 Doomsday. I'll test four, but currently the deck is working with only 3.
- No Infernal Tutor. This was adressed some pages earlier.
Fixed Sideboard slots (10):
2 Krosan Grip
1 Wipe Away
1 Rushing River
1 Helm of Awakening
1 Grapeshot
1 Slaughter Pact
3 Serenity (usually)
or
3 Ancient Grudge
or
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Reverent Silence
- Slaughter Pact is better than Massacre, I've written about this some pages earlier.
- Grapeshot > Brain Freeze because of Gaea's Blessing
- Ancient Grudge would require a Badlands in the main, most probably one has to cut Basic Plains for it. It's good against Needles and decks with not too many Stax pieces. Serenity is the overall better card though. Reverent Silence was an experiment I haven't tested enough yet.
Variable sideboard slots - current configuration (5):
1 Krosan Grip
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Extirpate
Alternatives:
2-3 Dark Confidant
1 Pyroclasm
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Rushing River
1 Empty the Warrens
1-2 Thoughtseize
Team SPOD[23:08:50] <@Anusien> You want me to actually test?
[23:09:02] <frogboy> I thought you already had
Yeah, it happens to me a lot, and I run 4 Lotus Petal/Cabal Rituals. It's hard to get the U mana when you have to Orim's Chant, or at least that seems to be the cause. I just run Infernal Contract and SB Meditate ATM.
I agree IT belongs in the MD, LED just feels underwhelming with out it.
Edit: Since we're posting lists,
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infernal Contract
1 Ill Gotten Gains
4 Doomsday
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Lim Dul's Vault
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
1 Wipe Away
4 Orim's Chant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Island
SB
1 Brain Freeze
1 Helm of Awakening
3 Wipe Away
1 Slaughter Pact
4 Abeyance
4 Leyline of the Void
Still not running Ponder or Duress/Thought Seize in favor of accelerating into either the Infernal Tutor or Doomsday win.
These are some of my current boarding plans:
@ Meditate: I'm confused. As I said, Meditate is my only draw 4 main. I've had an issue with it once: against Landstill I've played Meditate as a draw 4, then he was able to remove it with a Tormod's Crypt. But the mana requirements have never been difficult.Code:UGw CB Thresh -1 Cabal Ritual -1 Lotus Petal -2 Street Wraith -1 Echoing Truth -1 Ponder -1 Mystical Tutor +3 Krosan Grip +1 Wipe Away +1 Helm of Awakening +1 Grapeshot +1 Extirpate UGb CB Thresh -1 Cabal Ritual -1 Lotus Petal -2 Street Wraith -1 Echoing Truth -1 Ponder +3 Krosan Grip +1 Wipe Away +2 Extirpate Dreadstill (Ur or Ug -> no Meddling Mage/Extirpate) -1 Cabal Ritual -1 Lotus Petal -2 Street Wraith -1 Echoing Truth -1 Ponder +3 Krosan Grip +1 Wipe Away +2 Extirpate UWb Landstill -2 Street Wraith -1 Cabal Ritual -1 Lotus Petal -1 Echoing Truth -1 Krosan Grip +2 Extirpate +1 Helm of Awakening +1 Grapeshot +1 Slaughter Pact +1 Wipe Away RGb Aggro Loam (with Chalice) -4 Orim's Chant -1 Krosan Grip -2 Street Wraith +3 Serenity +1 Rushing River +1 Infernal Tutor +1 Ill-Gotten Gains +1 Extirpate UGr Tempo Thresh -2 Street Wraith -1 Krosan Grip +2 Extirpate +1 Infernal Tutor Goyf Sligh -1 Orim's Chant -1 Krosan Grip +1 Infernal Tutor +1 Ill-Gotten Gains Eva Green -1 Krosan Grip -1 Doomsday -2 Street Wraith +1 Infernal Tutor +1 Ill-Gotten Gains +1 Helm of Awakening +1 Grapeshot
Team SPOD[23:08:50] <@Anusien> You want me to actually test?
[23:09:02] <frogboy> I thought you already had
Yes, on your list I can see this happening, often, as it happened to me when I used to ran more rituals. I was actually referring to the 5 rituals list. Edited up there.
LED has never been underwhelming without IT, unless I got a 2nd LED stuck in hand. I usually shuffle it away.
Up there you said this card wasn't worthy tutoring for against Thresh. Why SB it in? Lucky draw? It seems that the Ponder you are taking out seems much better than the Extirpate you are getting in.
What about siding out Petal? You are excluding the possibility of the 6 mana pile, as it becomes a 7.
Last edited by Jaiminho; 09-18-2008 at 07:24 PM. Reason: me, not be
Keep moon-walking.
I'm still not sure about the value of Extirpate in the Threshold matchup. emidln said it was good, but I'm finding it to be pretty conditional. The boarding plan against Thresh is currently just experimental with respect to that.
I side out Lotus Petal in matchups that don't come down to a race. FT vs. Tempo Thresh, e. g., is a race. Tempo Thresh tries to beat you down while disrupting you as well as possible, same goes for Eva Green. However, in the matchups against CB Thresh, Dreadstill and Landstill you're more aiming for a longer game, as their clock isn't as big and a resolved Balance that requires to be dealt with also delays the game. When you're finally able to go off, usually that single mana doesn't matter with this specific pile and you often have the possibility of just chosing a different pile as well.
Team SPOD[23:08:50] <@Anusien> You want me to actually test?
[23:09:02] <frogboy> I thought you already had
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