[OLD] UGr Threshold

[Ironstickman]

I'm currently playing -1 Wipe Away -1 Fire/Ice for two Counterpsells.
I'm reluctant to take out Rushing river since it win games by itself. The truth is counterspells give quite a bit of stability lategame.
Fire/Ice is the kind of card that makes you win against a random deck which you're likely going to face. It is, however, a far too limited tool against many DtB so playing 4 copies is a bit excesive.

[chokin]

I'm currently playing -1 Wipe Away -1 Fire/Ice for two Counterpsells.
I'm reluctant to take out Rushing river since it win games by itself. The truth is counterspells give quite a bit of stability lategame.
Fire/Ice is the kind of card that makes you win against a random deck which you're likely going to face. It is, however, a far too limited tool against many DtB so playing 4 copies is a bit excesive.

Maybe it's just me, but I'd think that Wipe Away would be better than Rushing River. There have been more times I'd like to see Wipe Away instead of Rushing River(mostly against CB Top than anything). Or is River just easier to cast since you have the Wastelands and in case of Blood Moon?

I play more Swan than Canadian so IDK

[Henrik]

When you say rushing river wins on it's own, consider fire // ice to do the same, but also being more flexible in other scenarios. bounce two potential blockers IS valuable, but I think the value of having a versatile card is better. EOT tap the blocker -> cantrip into something nice wins a lot of games too.

But, I suppose this is all small potatoes in the end, if you like the spell, each player should be able to fit 2-3 counterspells into the deck in whatever way that player prefers.

[Henrik]

Moving on...

How does Canadian ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh players handle Ichorid and Stax?
What are the useful cards in sideboard and what is boarded out for them?
What are the most important "must-counter"-spell that Ichorid and Stax lay against you?

[Adan]

Moving on...

How does Canadian ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh players handle Ichorid and Stax?
What are the useful cards in sideboard and what is boarded out for them?
What are the most important "must-counter"-spell that Ichorid and Stax lay against you?

Against Ichorid: 4 Tormod's Crypt. And pray for that they don't do that retarded 1st Turn Kill. I'd board out Spell Snares against Ichorid since they are dead. Must-counters are situational. Early, I'd try to counter discard-outlets. Later they will rip off your counters with Cabal Therapy before doing anything further.

Against Stax: TRYGON PREDATOR! He's sooo fucking amazing it's unbelievable. They can't do anything against him. Except scooping. The good thing is that if you have one in your opening hand, you just have to ensure that he resolves and don't have to counter everything like Chalice 1. Only stuff like Crucible or Trinisphere which might slow you down.
Play Predators if you are afraid of Stax. They were another reason why I netdecked goobafish's list in January (Stax had it's high times back then).

[Henrik]

Yeah, that was what I expected. Right now, I don't play either crypt or predator in my deck, because my meta is extremely control / agro-control oriented.

Again, this is what I play:

MD:
Canadian
- 2 bounce
+ 2 counterspell

SB:
4 pyroblast
4 pyroclasm
3 krosan grip
3 pithing neddle
1 counterspell

This decklist has evolved in my meta where neither stax or ichorid is present. Instead there's a LOT of ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh-mirror, landstill, deed-control, aluren, fish (merfolk and faeries) and various survival-builds. In this meta my SB seems pretty much opted.
However, I plan to attend a tournament with an unknown meta, except that I've heard that ichorid is 20% (sick!). Also, I'm worried about stax since I know how to play against most decks but not that one.

So look at it this way. Playing in an unknown meta, except for the known ichorid matchup, how would you modify my sideboard to fit the crypts?
(I won't bother about predator and keep the grips instead, at least until I know if stax is played).

[Adan]

Instead there's a LOT of ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh-mirror, landstill, deed-control, aluren, fish (merfolk and faeries) and various survival-builds. In this meta my SB seems pretty much opted.

[...]

So look at it this way. Playing in an unknown meta, except for the known ichorid matchup, how would you modify my sideboard to fit the crypts?
(I won't bother about predator and keep the grips instead, at least until I know if stax is played).

Since you did not mention Goblins at all, what about kicking Pyroclasms out? You matchup against Fish, Merfolk and Faeries should already be good with all that Burn. I'm not sure about that, but since no one plays Goblins I think it's ok.

[raharu]

Since you did not mention Goblins at all, what about kicking Pyroclasms out? You matchup against Fish, Merfolk and Faeries should already be good with all that Burn. I'm not sure about that, but since no one plays Goblins I think it's ok.

Isn't PyroK pretty dandy against Ichorid? It's not like anyone runs Flame-Kin Zealot or Anger anymore, and on the play you can PyroK off even the insane turn-one wins, and it's a one-sided WoG because it hits Ichorids, Narcomobeas, and Zombie tokens. I always thought PyroK in the Ichorid match was one of the fringe benefits of playing red

[Nihil Credo]

1) Pretty much all Ichorid builds run FKZ, actually.

2) UGr Thresh doesn't normally have enough red cards to support Pyrokinesis.

[raharu]

1) Pretty much all Ichorid builds run FKZ, actually.

Really? I haven't heard much of it recently or seen it used... huh. Errr, Force the Dread Return?

2) UGr Thresh doesn't normally have enough red cards to support Pyrokinesis.

I meant Pyroclasm, not Pyrokenesis.

[Shriekmaw]

Really? I haven't heard much of it recently or seen it used... huh. Errr, Force the Dread Return?



I meant Pyroclasm, not Pyrokenesis.

The sideboard plan that I run against Ichroid is to the out the 2 counterspells, 2 bounce spells and 4 spells snares for the 4 tomord's crypt, 2 pyroclasms and 2 krosan grips (for leyline/needles). Seem to have worked very well. I can usually take games 2 and 3 after I get slaughtered in the first one.

[Adan]

Isn't PyroK pretty dandy against Ichorid? It's not like anyone runs Flame-Kin Zealot or Anger anymore, and on the play you can PyroK off even the insane turn-one wins, and it's a one-sided WoG because it hits Ichorids, Narcomobeas, and Zombie tokens. I always thought PyroK in the Ichorid match was one of the fringe benefits of playing red

Pyroclasm is O.K.

O.K. in the meaning of "mediocre". I'd still rather play Engineered Explosives in those slots, they have the same effect and are in general more versatile. But nickrit's boarding plan is most plausible, I would not have done it differently.

[Whit3 Ghost]

The sideboard plan that I run against Ichroid is to the out the 2 counterspells, 2 bounce spells and 4 spells snares for the 4 tomord's crypt, 2 pyroclasms and 2 krosan grips (for leyline/needles). Seem to have worked very well. I can usually take games 2 and 3 after I get slaughtered in the first one.

No Blasts come in? They seem to be the goods against Chains, Breakthroughs and DAs.

Edit- In the Syracuse metagame, I'd probably run Explosives over Clasm. I definitely agree with Adan on that point.

[Shriekmaw]

No Blasts come in? They seem to be the goods against Chains, Breakthroughs and DAs.

Edit- In the Syracuse metagame, I'd probably run Explosives over Clasm. I definitely agree with Adan on that point.

Blasts are way too narrow to be sided in. I would rather have counterspells that gives me the option of any spell instead of just blue spells. There is a lot of times where I want to counter either therapy, needle, or LED. Red blasts do not hit any of those which can be very crucial.

I found Explovies to be very bad since they nuke your dudes at 1 and 2 mana. There are better sideboard cards depending on what type of decks you might be facing. The bounce spells are way more relevant than explosives since they save your creatures which is important since you only play 8 ground threats.

[freakish777]

I meant Pyroclasm, not Pyrokenesis.

Assuming this is what you meant, how exactly does Pyroclasm hit Ichorids? They die at end of turn, and Clasm is a Sorcery.

Blasts are way too narrow

I agree with this, with the caveat that if you really do have a bunch of dead cards somehow (or you decided against boarding Tormod's for whatever reason), then Blast is atleast a 1 mana answer for some cards in their deck (and they're likely to play at least one during a game, so bringing in 1 or 2 blasts could be ok).

I found Explovies to be very bad since they nuke your dudes at 1 and 2 mana.

In the context of the Ichorid matchup, wouldn't you just about always play it on zero? I can't imagine playing it on two against Ichorid ever (when are you more afraid of a 1/1 flyer than a bunch of 3/3 hasted zombies?), and the only time it seems like you'd want to play it on one is if they have Needle down on Crypt (and even if you have Goose out, you're hitting their Bridges because of it). All this said, you obviously want reasons to run the card beyond a single match up, and you're basically left setting it on 0 or 3, or setting it on 1 or 2 when you're in a losing position (and ultimately this deck should be creating winning positions from the onset and forstalling losing positions with every other card in the deck until your guys get there). If you were somehow paranoid about Ichorid, I could see sideboarding an EE or maybe two, but I'm not sure they're worth it.

[goobafish]

Blasts are way too narrow to be sided in. I would rather have counterspells that gives me the option of any spell instead of just blue spells. There is a lot of times where I want to counter either therapy, needle, or LED. Red blasts do not hit any of those which can be very crucial.

I take out burn for blasts. Burn doesn't do to much in the matchup. I find that you either stop them, or you don't, there is rarely any middle ground. Blasts stop them from accelerating really quickly, where burn doesn't do much of anything.

[Sage]

Adan,

Would you mind posting your current Swan Thresh list that you would play in an unknown metta? I played the list you posted a few pages back and the deck played quite well, but I had too many ties. I believe it was due to my being too slow with cb/top and sb'ing improperly. Do you think I should keep the cb/top engine in and practice with it more? If you were to take out those 6 cards, what would you replace them with?

[Adan]

Adan,

Would you mind posting your current Swan Thresh list that you would play in an unknown metta? I played the list you posted a few pages back and the deck played quite well, but I had too many ties. I believe it was due to my being too slow with cb/top and sb'ing improperly. Do you think I should keep the cb/top engine in and practice with it more? If you were to take out those 6 cards, what would you replace them with?

The deck becomes garbage if you cut CB-Top.

My list now looks like this (ripped off the Blood Moon Sb Tech from Nihil. Credits to him):

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [A] Island (1)
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [B] Volcanic Island
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [B] Forest (1)

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
3 [SHM] Swans of Bryn Argoll
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [B] Lightning Bolt
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [ON] Chain of Plasma
1 [CS] Lightning Storm
2 [OD] Predict

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [10E] Pyroclasm
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [DK] Blood Moon

[Taurelin]

Love that list!

The only thing I wonder is if you should really go down to 1 Island, because once Blood Moon is in play you can't cast Swans or CB anymore. Do you side them out in a MU where you bring in Moon, or do you rely on playing them before putting Moon on the table?

My suggestion would simply be
-1 Tropical Island
+1 basic Island

[MULocke]

Love that list!

The only thing I wonder is if you should really go down to 1 Island, because once Blood Moon is in play you can't cast Swans or CB anymore. Do you side them out in a MU where you bring in Moon, or do you rely on playing them before putting Moon on the table?

My suggestion would simply be
-1 Tropical Island
+1 basic Island

Actually, I think a land is missing because he only has 17. That might work for thrash, but I don't think swans can go under 18. My suggestion is to cut a predict or daze for that 2nd basic island, and possibly a trop or volcanic for the 4th Wooded Foothills. That way, you have 1 more fetch for the basic forest, and you reach threshold at a decent rate while still running so many permanents.