Sorry to post this here, but wizards hasn't done any coverage on the legacy side event that took place in GP Paris (109 players). We only miss the TES list which came 3rd in the rounds, so if Manuel Wolf could post his list here it would be great.
Manuel doesn't read The Source, nor is he usually a legacy player. But as both him and me did incredibly bad at the mainevent, I got him to play Legacy with my TES. He had only played the deck in testgames so far and despite not knowing the format he did pretty well.
His list was basically pre-AD Nauseam TES with one Ad Nauseam added in place of an Infernal Contract (we only had one available):
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infernal Contract
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
4 Orim's Chant
SB:
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Shattering Spree
1 Tranquility (no Cleanfall available, also it never matters)
3 Vexing Shusher
3 Duress
3 Pyroblast
As we had only 15 minutes to build the deck and write the decklist, the sideboard is pretty bad. The Pyroblasts shouldn't have been in there, the rest is probably okay.
Edit: I asked him about his matchups:
Death and Taxes, 2-1
TrinketStalker 1-2 (he lost g3 because he went for turn1 ETW for 12 or 14 and his opponent had his singleton EE in hand)
Meathooks 2-0
Death and Taxes, 2-0
Dredge, 2-1
Goyf Sligh, 2-1
Edit2: He got pretty lucky with his matchups considering that my matchups (with Solidarity) were: White Stax, balanced Fish, Faerie Stompy, Faeries, Landstill, It's the Fear, 11 Meddling Mage.dec (lifecombo with three Mage, 4 Eladamri's Call, 4 Living Wish main)
@Lejay: Where can I find the lists from 4th to seventh? - Okay, thanks, seen your post in the Top8-Thread.
Last edited by Van Phanel; 10-22-2008 at 02:01 PM.
I was thinking today about Cunning wish and its place in this deck. Since we are cutting down to 3 AdN because everyone after the first increase the chance of fizzle, Why not run 1 main board 3 cunnings and one in the side. I am very rusty at magic and this could just sound like a good idea in my head. It seems like it could be worth while and lower the over all CC of the deck or it might just be too clunky and slow things down with its 3CC. I have very little time to test things so im just bouncing an idea around, if it has been discussed before just ignore me.
I think it's still better to run 3-4 MB because it greatly increases your chances for a turn 1 kill. Ever since the deck got Ad Nauseum, the amount of turn 1 and 2 kills I've gotten is phenomenal. Adding Cunning Wish is a decent idea, but the deck as it stands is completely fine without it. The life-loss is actually not as bad as people think it is, and I still draw over 10 cards from AdN consistently. Having to reach 8 mana (5BBU) may also prove difficult, unless you wait a turn or have an LED.Originally Posted by BigDCool
Not sure if the card has been tried in the deck yet, since there were no instant-speed engines used in the past, but great idea - I just think it's unnecessary.
Cunning Wish is not necessary in the deck. You don't need to find Ad-Nauseum to win. In fact, more often than not you just win with an IGG loop or Burning Wish -> Diminishing Returns. Plus Burning Wish already eats up 6-7 sideboard slots, there is no room for another Wish board.
I'm sure this is gonna get bashed, but I don't care. Here's teh list I'm running, as is a buddy. It does well. It's never been to a tourney as there aren't really any around here. My buddies and I play legacy, and have a decent metagame built, but not enough players for actual events. Anyway, here's the list:
Spells--50
2x Chrome Mox
4x Dark Ritual
4x Rite of Flame
4x Lotus Petal
4x LED
2x Manamorphose (here's where the bashing begins...)
1x Desperate Ritual (more bashing...)
1x Cabal Ritual
4x Mystical Tutor
3x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Ad Nauseam
3x Infernal Tutor
4x Burning Wish
4x Orim's Chant
4x Duress
Land--10
4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
1x Forbidden Orchard
1x Undiscovered Paradise
SB--15
1x Hull Breach
1x Shattering Spree
1x Cleanfall
1x Infernal Tutor (more bashing...)
1x Infernal Contract (will probably drop...)
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
3x Vexing Shusher (may go down to 2x)
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens (I'm not sure why this is in here...)
3x Pyroblast (Should I drop a shusher and an EtW for 5x? If not, lmk your thoughts on the SB)
I think I originally had 3x Chrome Mox in here, but I dropped one for the 4th M. Tutor. Love them. Anyway, it's not like anyone is going to agree with my list as you all run >2x AdN, but I'm good with it as a singleton.
Pce,
--DC
Schadenfreude is the most genuine kind of joy, since it doesn't include even a drop of envy.Why can't we just admit it?
Your changes are...
-2 Ad Nauseam
-2 Chome Mox (which are critical for winning Post-AdN)
-2 SSG
-1 Brainstorm
-1 Cabal Ritual
-1 Infernal Tutor
+1 Desperate Ritual (Big ?)
+2 Manamorphose
+4 Mystical Tutor
+2 Duress
You say you're fine with AdN as a one of. I question this. What is your reasoning behind this? Yes, when you cast it, you will never Lava Axe yourself for flipping another, but what about the fact that you're practically never going to open it. This greatly decreases your chances for the turn 1 win. Flipping an AdN really isn't that big of a deal, and you'll probably still win anyways. Why cut the most broken card in the deck?
The absence of Mystical Tutor is one of the reasons that I play this deck and not ANT. Mystical grabbing AdN is a great play, since you win anyways, but Mystical is also a historically bad card, and not entirely neccesary.
Desperate Ritual? Why? How is this better than Cabal Ritual? Is it because you insist on running...
Manamorphose? This has been commented on a billion times before, and I feel like such a troll for biting, but I am. The best thing that Manamorphose does is Color Fix. This deck runs rainbow lands, so this is rarely needed. You net 0 mana and 0 cards with the spell.
How many situations have you been in before going off that you were a mana short, but had Manamorphose in hand? At that point you're faced with the decision. Do I cast my Rituals and attempt to go off, and hope that the top card is a card that nets me mana? Or do I wait another turn. Say you go off, and need that top card to be a Petal or a Ritual, and its any one of the many spells that don't give you that mana. Well, you've just lost the game. My point being, that Manamorphose is unreliable. Who knows what that top card is going to be, and banking on it will bite you in the ass. Why play this when you can just play a spell that always adds +1 to your pool and know that you can go off. Like Cabal Ritual.
Sure, you could play the Manamorphose first in your chain to see if you nab the goods, but then what has the spell done? Now you've got 2 mana in the pool and potentially nothing to dump it into.
Why play a card that everyone insists is bad?
I think troopatroop pretty much covered most of it, but the biggest question is still "why?". You don't explain your card choices, you just say we're going to bash you.
This deck is based around explosiveness and bombs. Mystical Tutor, while it adds consistency, is really not what this deck is looking for. Those slots are better reserved as: more bombs, more cantrip/setup, or more mana acceleration. Also, the cantrips in this deck are amazing btw, they let you keep otherwise unkeepable hands.
About your board...
-Infernal Tutor is a MD bomb. I'm not sure why there's one in your SB. Did you want to Burning Wish for it? Why wish for it when you can just wish for a win condition?
-Vexing Shusher dropped to 2? The whole point of having 3 is so that you can see it consistently, since there's no other way to find it.
-Hull Breach isn't needed. In the most extreme case, I've used Hull Breach to destroy a Ghostly Prison and a Chalice @ 1 (happened only ever once). That was when I was still playing Belcher, and thank god that TES no longer depends on EtW for a primary win. Shattering Spree and Cleanfall are both better at what they do.
-You're right about Infernal Contract, it just isn't needed.
It's definately a mistake to remove EtW from the maindeck. If you worry about the CC: some people play with 4 Ad Nauseams, so 3 AdN and 1 EtW should be doable. EtW is really important, unless your whole meta is anti-TES. Like 1/4 of the decks have an answer to EtW on turn 2-3 and they usually play around 2-4. That means on avarage 0.5-1 answers maindeck. And even then you can usually see if you are playing a deck with answers. My turn 1-3 EtW only gets answered like 1 out of 8 times. This includes game 2 and 3's. It's really, really good. You can choose between combo for 6 mana, EtW, 7, AdN or IGG if you have LED+Dark Rit or 8, IGG. Against decks you can't wait for the 7th mana you need it. Like when you expect CB next turn, or 3 Sphere, or Hymn. I play 3 SSG, 3 Mox, 3 AdN, 3 Wish, 4 Ponder, 2 Cabal Ritual and 11 land, the rest 4x or 1x. I am happy with it. I am considering 3rd Cabal instead of 4th Ponder. 4 Moxes is really bad.
This is originally from a different thread.
I agree Desperate Ritual is very bad. Further it seems like Dark Cynics list could be tested, but my guess is, it's worse than without Mystical Tutor. IT Sb isn't good. If you have enough MD tutors, remove some Wishes. I only play 3 cause AdN has the same function, you don't want too many bussines spells, they clog up your hand. They are needed, but the 4th is not.
Also:Dark Cynic, you say you want to remove EtW from the Sb. Don't. It should be your most wished card.
Team Nijmegen
I don't know if ETW is my most wished for card, I think I wish for Tendrils and for IGG more often. However, it definitely should never be cut from the sideboard. I found during the source tourney I really wanted a wishable thoughtseize/duress. Does anyone play a wishable protection spell? If you do, what does your sideboard look like?
Well the Current side looks to be this list,
SB:
3 Vexing shusher
3 Pyroblast
3 Shattering Spree
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Cleanfall (1 Duress or Thoughtseize)
1 Grapeshot
1 Diminishing Returns
The only thing I can even think that could go would be the Cleanfall or one Shattering Spree for a duress or Thoughtsieze. However, the Cleanfall option leaves you with no outs verse counter balace or Pyrostatic pillar and if you go the -1 Shattering Spree you run into problems finding it when you need to get rid of a problem artifact. Cleanfall seems like the best bet to go and then you would just need to replace one of the Shattering Sprees with a sorcery that fills both artifact and enchantment destruction. Hull breach seems like a logical choice buts its far more vulnerable to Counter balance. Im not sure that there is a good way to fit it in, unless you have no wish option for Enchantment hate and change 1 shattering spree to a Kroshan Grip.
This depends.
If your deck reliants on Ad N. EtW becomes worse than another Ad N. cause if there's only one good thing on TES with Ad Nauseam it is that you don't lose to EE/Wish->Dreams or anything like this.
If you run Ad Nauseam in your TES list you should focus to go off with Nauseam or Iggy-Loop, EtW MD isn't needed anymore. It would just waste a slot where additional Discard or Setup would be better instead.
@Duress/Thougtseize in the Wishboard: You just wish for one of them if you're winning anyway, so a slot for aditional discard is down the drain.
There will never be another me
ETW just isn't needed anymore. You're better off waiting a turn to get the additional mana to cast Ad Nauseum or having 2 more mana and just Igg-Looping. Ad Nauseum won't get Engineered Explosives'd away or Deed'd away. Not to mention ETW after Nauseum is TERRIBLE. Being anywhere between 1-6 life and having Goblin tokens isn't that good. I don't see a need for the card to be maindecked.
People have pretty much cleared up my thoughts on 'Cynic's lists.
Discard in the sideboard isn't needed. I used to do it, however, it's not very effective to spend 3 mana on a Duress. Most of the time the Burning Wish will draw out the counter anyways.
I expected the whole Manamorphose thing, and frankly I think you are wrong. It's ability to be free granted you have 1R/G in your mana pool is a plus, as it's +1 Storm count at the VERY least, but also, it's good with the card I added in that adds consistancy--M. Tutor. You can stop AdN'ing sooner when you hit this + M. Tutor. It does well for me.
Also, the Chrome Mox is rarely an issue. I normally go off turn 2 (maybe I'm lucky, IDK). I normally haven't played a land turn 2. Drawing a land is almost a given, and it gives me the mana I need to continue going off. I've never found a need for a 3rd Chrome Mox. I tested it, but dropped it feeling that it was unneccessary and put in a business spell instead.
Desperate Ritual--I understand your outlook on it, but running 10x Rits is fine, and I like it 5/5 split between R/B. There are times you need a red business spell (and not just for Manamorphose).
I've found that with a IT in the board, I've become more consistant. When IGG looping, I've come across being only at 8 storm count and B. Wishing for a win-condition. Sometimes it's okay if they've Thoughtseized//Popped a few fetches, but otherwise, it's shitty.
I'm not saying you have to like it or play it or can't change it, but I definitely think that 1x AdN is good enough and that no one should play more than 2x, and lastly that M. Tutors should be looked at more in depth...
Oh, and my sideboard is still being worked on, all your concerns seem legitimate in that aspect. Nothing there is perfected nor do I have reasons. I just thought I'd let you know what I was working with.
Pce,
--DC
Schadenfreude is the most genuine kind of joy, since it doesn't include even a drop of envy.Why can't we just admit it?
Not against Threshold.
It's just an extra option, you can always decide to wait a few turns to find some other stuff IF you have time. If you don't, 12 goblin tokens are pretty good.
DCI L1 Judge, admin of www.BeNeLegacy.nl and member of Team Nijmegen (T.N.T.=Team Nijmegen Tendrils).
Also, TES doesn't play Mystical Tutor, how many times has this been discussed? I lost track.
This message has been deleted by Nightmare. Reason: Boo fucking hoo
Some recent list do play Mystical. Testing results look promising.
DCI L1 Judge, admin of www.BeNeLegacy.nl and member of Team Nijmegen (T.N.T.=Team Nijmegen Tendrils).
Ad Nauseam addition changes those results. Mystical tutor must be retested, and it may, actually prove worthiness, improving 2nd turn comboing or fetching a SB/whatever answer.
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
Mystical Tutor actually seems like a better set-up spell than Ponder: it finds you Ad Nauseam if you need the win, Ritual if you need accel, Chant if you need protection. I agree, I think it's worth consideration.
Also, this might be a terrible idea, but has there been any consideration for cutting IGG from the maindeck? It doesn't seem like an effective engine anymore with Ad Nauseam in the deck. I mean, it's certainly more useful when your life total has been lowered, but that's basically the only time you'd prefer it over Ad Nauseam. Is that enough of a concern to warrant it's slot?
I might be placing too much emphasis on Ad Nauseam... but that's where nearly all of my wins have come from in playing with TES.
IGG shouldn't be cut from TES. In many cases it is always a safe and guaranteed way to generate large amounts of storm. I'd say more than half of the games I win with a resolved AdN. The rest? IGG loop.
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