[Deck] Fetchland Tendrils

[Jaiminho]

I was also thinking of a SB that looked like this with land#14 moved to the board:

Why would a land be in the sideboard if you have 0 Living Wish mainboard? If you are ever to side that in, keep it in the maindeck already and use that free slot for something better.

[emidln]

Why would a land be in the sideboard if you have 0 Living Wish mainboard? If you are ever to side that in, keep it in the maindeck already and use that free slot for something better.

I've played land in my sideboard several times in FT. The basic idea is I keep extra lands in the sb to hedge against LD or control (basic Plains and basic Island both come to mind) as well as lands to splash additional colors (green and red duals have both seen play). These days, I would rather err on playing too many lands maindeck and siding them out when not necessary though.

[rsaunder]

I've played land in my sideboard several times in FT. The basic idea is I keep extra lands in the sb to hedge against LD or control (basic Plains and basic Island both come to mind) as well as lands to splash additional colors (green and red duals have both seen play). These days, I would rather err on playing too many lands maindeck and siding them out when not necessary though.

Mine was a singleton plains for serenity and Pikula out of the board. It's a useless land drop game 1 in 99% of all circumstances and frees up a slot for more fun things that do stuff.

[Jaiminho]

Mine was a singleton plains for serenity and Pikula out of the board. It's a useless land drop game 1 in 99% of all circumstances and frees up a slot for more fun things that do stuff.

If you play against blue decks with Wasteland, such as Ubgx Landstill and Thrash, it's a very good land to have around in every game. Aside from that, having a minimum number of lands is good for you to reach 3 lands by turn 3-4 so you can combo using some piles that actually require extra-ritual mana, such as the Brainstorm + 2 cards + 1U pile. Unless you are running the hybrid version, you shouldn't be thinning the deck off lands. Up to a certain count, dropping lands is considered business.

[Dark_Cynic87]

How much does this new threat density means in the control matchup?

and how stable is the adn lists?

Obviously AdN lists will never be as "stable" as the traditional D-Day lists as drawing cards = randomness, and randomness = chance of fizzling. Also, the lifeloss that is synonymous with AdN puts in in burn range most of the time (this is important against stuff like UGr Thrash), which can be very problematic if in fact you do fizzle or didn't chant or don't chant afterwords (although that is much worse than chanting beforehand).

I'm not interested in building an AdN list with the Doomsday shell. Here's why:

8x Fetches. The lifeloss here is very relevent. I pop on average 2 fetches a game, sometimes as many as 4x. Takes away between 2 and 4 uses of AdN.

Same goes for Doomsday and Bargain. I don't like going down really low in life, and AdN just makes it worse.

The lack of Chrome Mox in the list is a bit disturbing as it's relatively important after AdN. I would suggest putting a singleton/2x Burning Wish in as it can definitely be a plus. It can grab you a win-con very often, and also opens up new sideboard possibilities for removal and etc., along with the addition of a mini-EtW that could win you games.

I like Pact of Negation. I think it deserves at least 1 spot md in an AdN list and possibly a second.

Pce,

--DC

[emidln]

Obviously AdN lists will never be as "stable" as the traditional D-Day lists as drawing cards = randomness, and randomness = chance of fizzling. Also, the lifeloss that is synonymous with AdN puts in in burn range most of the time (this is important against stuff like UGr Thrash), which can be very problematic if in fact you do fizzle or didn't chant or don't chant afterwords (although that is much worse than chanting beforehand).

I'm not interested in building an AdN list with the Doomsday shell. Here's why:

8x Fetches. The lifeloss here is very relevent. I pop on average 2 fetches a game, sometimes as many as 4x. Takes away between 2 and 4 uses of AdN.

Same goes for Doomsday and Bargain. I don't like going down really low in life, and AdN just makes it worse.

The lack of Chrome Mox in the list is a bit disturbing as it's relatively important after AdN. I would suggest putting a singleton/2x Burning Wish in as it can definitely be a plus. It can grab you a win-con very often, and also opens up new sideboard possibilities for removal and etc., along with the addition of a mini-EtW that could win you games.

I like Pact of Negation. I think it deserves at least 1 spot md in an AdN list and possibly a second.

Pce,

--DC

If you analyze the posted list, you'll notice several things of interest: no Cruel Bargain, several copies of Chrome Mox, a very low alternate mana cost, cards that have consistently translated into stability in combo decks (Sensei's Divining Top), and a very clear goal: Tendrils for lethal. Doomsday and Ad Nauseam don't conflict in the list I presented because (1) I do analysis before and during deck design and (2) I test my lists before posting them.

Burning Wish is a terrible idea. Burning Wish solves 0 problems (outside of Extract/Jester's Cap/Cranial Extraction/Extirpate) and it does create color issues, space requirements in the sideboard, and is generally worse than just playing Brain Freeze (which is perfectly usable with Doomsday or Ad Nauseam to generate lethal storm.

8x fetches is not an issue because this list needs, on average, less life than other Ad Nauseam lists to win the game. The reasons here are very simple. With Ad Nauseam the list has a lower CMC and more relevant cards with a lower mana cost capable of ending the game (Mystical Tutor + Sensei's top) requiring less digging AND when lifeloss does become a problem, for example, against control the Doomsday plan is available for winning at as little as 2 life.

[Dark_Cynic87]

My bad on the C. Moxen. Missed them. Also, I failed to see how the deck would function with an AdN strategy, which includes additional mana-ramp and more tutors, leading me to my assumption of extra pain from said fetches. I've been playing a TES-ish version of AdN, and have found the Wish to be quite nice. I'll test and let you know how it goes. It may work. If not, I've never had a problem admitting I was wrong before, and I won't now either.

I think this is how it looks best from Emidln's variations on his first list:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Orim's Chant
1 Wipe Away
2 Pact of Negation
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Mystical Tutor
1 Doomsday
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Meditate
1 Tendrils of Agony

I, too think that 3x Infernal Tutor are aplenty. I've been enjoying the PoN's. People say that the only time they are useful is when they're unneccessary, but that's absolutely not true. They are protection before-hand that you can tutor/top into in response to them countering your AdN. I think it's quite handy. It's also never a dead AdN card, as you can use it to up your storm count +1. A free storm count that loses you nothing in life when AdN'ing.

By the way, Emidln. Earlier you said that you need either 1/2 or a 2/1 on Infernal Tutor/IGG respectively to combo off successfully. This isn't true, it just means you need to make sure you hit a certain storm count before you IGG off.

Spell 1--Duress/BS/Ponder/Top/Petal/Whatever...
Spell 2--Chant
Spell 3--Rit
Spell 4--Rit/LED
Spell 5--IT
Spell 6--IGG
Spell 7--Rit (from 'yard)
Spell 8--Rit/LED (from 'yard)
Spell 9--IT (from 'yard)--> Tendrils
Spell 10-Tendrils

You can go the IGG route like this also:

--Top and LED in play--

Spell 1--Chant
Spell 2--LED/D. Rit/C. Rit
Spell 3--Mystical Tutor --> Infernal Tutor
Spell 4--Tap Top, (If you have, Pop Diamond (BBB)) --> Infernal Tutor
Spell 5--IT
Spell 6--IGG
Spell 7--accel (from 'yard)
Spell 8--accel (from 'yard)
Spell 9--IT (from 'yard)
Spell 10-Tendrils

Top in play, 1WUB available from lands. Obviously you can go for the D-Day kill as well with these requirements, but there are sometimes when it is necessary to go for the IGG win (burn comes to mind...as does UGr Thresh and Goyf Sligh).

Spell 1--Chant
Spell 2--LED
Spell 3--Dark Rit
Spell 4--IT--> IGG
Spell 5--IGG
Spell 6--Dark Rit
Spell 7--Dark Rit
Spell 8--IT--> Mystical Tutor
Spell 9--Mystical Tutor--> Tendrils
Spell 10-Tap SDT--> Tendrils


It's not uncommon (I know you know it's possible). I do it fairly often, and it's good to be able to IGG ftw. I play a singleton IT in my FDDT list. I just thought that I would mention it so people know it's an option. And the singleton IT isn't bad without IGG. Grabs a second Rit/LED, and in conjunction with LED acts as the 4th D-Day, and I'd rather see an IT than multiple D-Days. Personal Preference.

Further, I've been trying out Relic of Progenitus, and it does well. Here's why and how I've been using it:

1.) Acts as 5th Top. Not only that, but it gets around their Needle on Top (Ichorid does this, at least in my experience)
2.) It's good against Ichorid, being able to remove Ichorids and/or bridges slowly AND function with it's second ability while doing it. This is good for so much against Ichorid. I wish we could use Vampiric Tutor...
3.) It shrinks Goyfs and Mongeese. This can be important while trying to set up through CB. It just takes longer, and while I'm only trying one, I'm thinking of going -1 Extirpate (I run 2x) +1 Relic, upping me to a 2/1 split. However, I don't think this is the best idea, as 'Pate is good against blue control, much more so than relic would be, and therefore probably shouldn't be considered.

Anyway, Relic has been good for me in my testing. The only reason I decided to give it a shot was because it could act like a top for me. 5 tops gives me a better chance of having something to slap down turn 1 before Dragon Stompy gets Chalice down that will allow me to combo off through it.

Mentioning comboing off through chalice (which regardless of what some people believe, you just have to sometimes) reminds me that I'm doing something about that as well.

I've stopped playing K. Grip in the maindeck with 2x in the board. I'm thinking about this:

-1 Trop (Into SB)
+1 Rushing River (From the SB)

This drops me back down to 16 lands, but I'm fine with that.

Pce,

--DC

[emidln]

By the way, Emidln. Earlier you said that you need either 1/2 or a 2/1 on Infernal Tutor/IGG respectively to combo off successfully. This isn't true, it just means you need to make sure you hit a certain storm count before you IGG off.

I would argue that 2 Infernal Tutor isn't enough since, at best, you're going to upkeep Mystical for Infernal, draw Infernal, Infernal breaking LEDs for IGG, LED, LED, Infernal for Infernal for Tendrils which is only about 16 lifeloss. Often, you're dealing with something like Hypnotic Specter which will further decrease your storm count (forcing Mystical Tutor to be played on your opponent's turn).

This is for the very common situation of attempting to combo off without the benefit of additional cards in hand. This is specifically why I brought up the Mystical Tutor scenario. Obviously if you have the luxury of playing ritual effects or protection from hand, only a singleton Infernal Tutor and IGG are required, but if you have so many cards in hand, then your opponent hasn't been executing their gameplan very well and you should be winning. The point of playing Infernal Tutor and IGG in multiples is to be able to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat, something exemplified by the classic Iggy Pop strategy of throwing down artifacts, letting your hand be wrecked, and knowing that you can still bring up Mystical, Infernal, or IGG to win right off the top.

[Dark_Cynic87]

I tried your hybrid, and it's good. I like it. Balls-to-the-wall D-Day isn't that bad, but I won't be playing it as it's control aspect is weaker than possibly even TES's. I lose a lot of resilience game one to a lot of control, and I don't like that. However, I did goldfish against Ichorid 5 matches straight the other day. I was 10-0. That's sick. When you goldfish more consistantly than Ichorid, I'd say you are on to something. Once I fizzled with AdN, but I topdecked like Chuck Norris the next turn (WW Chant Ichorid's turn to timewalk--Game one) and combo'ed off. In hindsite I should have just IGG'ed that game, but I haven't played a aggro build of storm for a long time, so it took some getting used to.

It would be completely possible to play and win with in a less developed metagame. Lots of aggro and combo are easy to win against. I also played it against TES. It's matchup doesn't change much.

If you were to include a second bounce spell in the maindeck, would it be:

E. Truth
Rushing River
2nd Wipe Away
OR
Krosan Grip

I have my Trop and 2x Grips in the SB right now, with an E. Truth in the Trop Slot. I don't run Bayou, but if I ever put Grip in the maindeck (Which I would for a larger tourney), I will.

Also, against Dragon Stompy, I was advised to side out tops to make their needles hit nothing. I've been trying out Relic, and siding it in as well as all my bounce and serenity. I haven't hit it, but it's ability to be a permanent cantrip makes me think it's worth it if I ever hit it. Any thoughts?

What do I side against Thresh and Thrash, and Swan/Moon Thresh? I'm guessing just bounce and my singleton Abeyance against Thrash; Serenity, bounce and K. Grip against Thresh and S&M Thresh? (S&M Thresh--That makes me giggle...)

Thanks for the help.

Pce,

--DC

[JeroenC]

What kind of DD stack would you make if you already had ToA in hand and just needed as much storm as possible?

// Lands
1 [A] Bayou
1 [U] Tropical Island
1 [A] Badlands
1 [U] Volcanic Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [B] Scrubland
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [A] Underground Sea
1 [7E] Swamp (3)
1 [BD] Island (3)
1 [B] Tundra

// Spells
4 [IA] Dark Ritual
1 [PT] Cruel Bargain
1 [OV] Meditate
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
1 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [ARE] Duress
1 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [WL] Doomsday
1 [TSP] Wipe Away
4 [6E] Mystical Tutor
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [MR] Plains (3)
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [VI] Helm of Awakening
SB: 1 [PS] Rushing River
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 2 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip

This is my deck. I'm thinking of dropping the Helm/Grapeshot kill from my sideboard (cause I haven't ever used it and I don't have time to actually practice it before the tournament tomorrow). Anything else that should change about the sideboard? I have no idea whatsoever of the meta.

[GreenOne]

You can use the usual brainstorm or SDT->IGG stack:

Cost: Sensei's Divining Top in play, 2 random cards in hand, 2 life, and 1U mana
Benefit: 9 storm + Tendrils

[Top]
Brainstorm
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lion's Eye Diamond
Ill-Gotten Gains
Any card
[Bottom]

You can just have brainstorm in hand and put a SDT as first card in the stack.
This one is the most efficient in terms of mana spent/storm generated ratio.

If you don't wanna go for IGG you can use this stack:

Cost: Sensei's Divining Top in play, Tendrils in hand and B+draw4+"X" mana
Benefit: 7+"X" storm + Tendrils

[Top]
Draw4
Dark Ritual
Dark Ritual
Sensei's Divining Top
Dark Ritual
[Bottom]

[emidln]

Come on now, we're more efficient than that.

Cost: 4UB + X, 4 life*, Sensei's Divining Top in play, Tendrils of Agony in hand.
Benefit: X + 17 Storm + Tendrils

// First Doomsday Pile
[Top]
Meditate
LED
LED
SDT
IGG
[Bottom]

// Second Doomsday Pile
[Top]
Meditate
LED
LED
SDT
Tendrils
[Bottom]

Procedure:
Meditate, LED, LED, Top, Top, IGG, LED, LED, Doomsday, Meditate, Top, Top, LED, LED, Top (6+X times), Tendrils

Sure, you _could_ do it with 16 life and Cruel Bargain/Infernal Contract, but both of us know you aren't going to. As a side note, 4UB should never actually equal 20 storm + Tendrils. Sensei's Divining Top is fucking broken.

Also, if you've boarded in helm of awakening,

Cost: Draw4Mana + B, 2 Life*, SDT in play, and Tendrils in hand
Benefit: infinite storm + Tendrils

[Top]
Meditate
Dark Ritual
SDT
Helm
Dark Ritual
[Bottom]

[rsaunder]

In that example, you can even use LED to get the post d-day mana, as the tendrils is just as good in the yard.

EDIT for clarity: This is referring to emidln's first stack. The LED can't get cracked in response to DDay, it has to be on the table and used in response to the first SDT activation so that Tendrils is still in the game and not removed by DDay.

[GreenOne]

Come on now, we're more efficient than that.

Good call. I don't know if he needed 10 storm more for 3 colorless mana, but this is definetly good. Is there a more efficient way of making storm than the one I posted, that doesn't include Helm or IGG?

[JeroenC]

So, a short review of the tournament today. I got no notes from the games, but games never lasted long so I can give you the quick overview. On a side note, yes I do suck.

Match 1: GWB Loam
I open up slowly with Basic Island and Top with a hand that looked good for a turn 3/4 win. He drops a land on turn 1 and passes, I Brainstorm (nothing decent) and drop Underground Sea. On his turn, he drops Thorn of Amethyst. I had made the (obvious) mistake of playing before the tournament so he obviously knew I was playing combo. I drop a dual (I have Wipe Away and I could win the moment I got rid of the Thorn) and pass the turn without any plays to make. The next two turns, he drops Dark Confidants and Wastes me. So I'm stuck taking damage steadily and I don't have mana for Wipe Away. When he plays Vore and I have nothing decent in the Top3 cards, I scoop.

Side: -4 Chant, -1 Wipe Away, -1 IGG
+2 Extirpate, +2 Krosan Grip, +2 Ancient Grudge (not sure, something like this)

Game 2: He drops turn 1 Gaddock Teeg. I have no bounce, no removal and no alternate kill. I scoop.
Yes, this was stupid. However, untill this tournament, I had never heard a good word about Teeg in my meta and therefore assumed there would be only artifact based hate (and true to that, he had also sided in 4 Chalice of the Void and 4 Thoughtseize). Therefore, I thought no bounce was safe, but I guess I was just a moron for thinking so.

0-1 loss against Loam. Painful and stupid. Had I played safe here, I might've stood a chance.

Match Two: GWB Loam/Rock rogue
I start off fine and it looks like I'm heading for a safe turn 4/5 win (I knew what my friend was playing) but I never get the parts I need together as Doran is beating my face. Loss.
Sideboard: -Chant
+IT, IGG, 2 Extirpate (something like this, I'm not sure, once again)
Game 2: Turn 2: Hymn, Turn 3: Hymn, Turn 4: Hymn and Extirpate on my Tendrils of Agony. Scoop 'em up.

0-2 against two loam decks. I had checked around the hall (only 20ish people) and those were the only decks I should've won against. All the others were either (faster) combo (I have no problems with this matchup, but it scares me for some reason) or Dreadstill or ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh (yes, I'm afraid of Counterbalance. You see, I'm just not good.)

Match 3: The Rock
Preboard, he has 4 Thoughtseize and 4 Hymn. Postboard, he gets Extirpate and 4 Duress. That just about tells you how the match went.

0-3, all winnable games. I swear to myself at this point, if I see one more Hymn to Tourach on the other side of the table, I'm quitting Legacy.

Match 4: Bye
Friendly guy, he saw I wasn't feeling too good so he scooped 'em up for me.

Match 5: Spanish Inquisition
Game 1 I keep him from winning with Duress and Spanish Inquisition does what it does a lot: fizzle. His Draw4's put him dangerously low and I hardly even need my Doomsday. First (and only) DD Stack I make all day.
DD
DRit
DRit
DRit
ToA

Sideboard: Wipe Away, 2Ponder and 1Brainstorm come out, I take an IGG, an IT and two 'Pates along for the ride (I seem to recall).

Game 2: Cabal Therapies keep me from winning. He does a small Tendrils to keep me from killing him the next turn(6 Storm + Tendrils) but wins off Belcher next turn.

Game 3: Duress and Chant keep him from winning. He tries to, but ends up putting himself on 5 with no danger (other than a huuuuuge bunch of Therapies). I go: D.Rit, LED, Mystical Tutor (putting ToA on top), sac Petal and Led for BBBB, draw with Top and win. Smiley face.
He would've won if he remembered that Mystical Tutor put cards on top of my library instead of my hand (I had told him earlier in the game, friendly as I am- it didn't matter anymore anyway, being at the last table) when I fetched the D.Rit. I can't recall the exact circumstances anymore.

2-3 ending, including a Bye. And it should've been 1-4, including a Bye. Hardly something to be proud of. I probably should've won my second game against Loam, but otherwise, I think I played as good as I could. Bad meta, is all I can say. Ad Nauseam scared people senseless into bringing too much combohate. I long for ye olden days around here, when decks that should scoop to combo were happy with 4 chalices or 4 Thoughtseizes for a small chance of victory.

My next tournament will probably be Faerie Stompy. I have no grudge against this deck, but it's just not right at the moment. And I'm not good enough of a player to pilot it, I feel.

[raharu]

Cost: 4UB + X, 4 life*, Sensei's Divining Top in play, Tendrils of Agony in hand.
Benefit: X + 20 Storm + Tendrils

// First Doomsday Pile
[Top]
Meditate
LED
LED
SDT
IGG
[Bottom]

I'm assuming it's Top into meditate, top, LED x2, top into top until it's 3BB floating with a top on the table, top into IGG, IGG into LED, LED, and something (is other mana in the yard assumed?), LEDx2, top into top, Tendrils, but I somehow fail to see how that's 20 storm.

Meditate
Top
LED
LED
Top
Top, rearrange IGG into top, grab IGG
IGG
LED
LED
Top
Top
Tendrils is only 10 storm + Tendrils. Obviously not bad, but I don't get 20 from this...

[emidln]

I'm assuming it's Top into meditate, top, LED x2, top into top until it's 3BB floating with a top on the table, top into IGG, IGG into LED, LED, and something (is other mana in the yard assumed?), LEDx2, top into top, Tendrils, but I somehow fail to see how that's 20 storm.

Meditate
Top
LED
LED
Top
Top, rearrange IGG into top, grab IGG
IGG
LED
LED
Top
Top
Tendrils is only 10 storm + Tendrils. Obviously not bad, but I don't get 20 from this...

Meditate (2B)
Top (1B)
Top (B)
LED
LED
IGG (BBB)
LED
LED
Doomsday (UUUBBB)
Meditate (BBB)
Top (BB)
Top (B)
LED
LED (BBBBBBB)
Top (BBBBBB)
Top (BBBBB)
Top (BBBB)
Tendrils of Agony

Okay, so I can't add. That's 17 + Tendrils. That's the second error I made with that pile actually (the first was my miscalculation of initial mana required). I'll correct this in the post. In terms of storm per mana, that's 3 storm per mana invested. This is less efficient than Brainstorm/Top+IGG piles but more efficient than the default Top+Meditate pile.

[raharu]

lolWhoops, I didn't see it was a Double Doomsday pile. My bad.

[rockout]

I'm going to apologize in advance for being a nub, but what is the most effective doomsday pile? I would assume it starts with meditate and something.

Sorry, I don't ever play combo except for elf storm in extended.

[LOL-Machine]

I'm going to apologize in advance for being a nub, but what is the most effective doomsday pile? I would assume it starts with meditate and something.

Whatever wins you the game is the most effective pile. The most common piles are

Cost: 2U/BBB, 2-4 life, Sensei's Divining Top in play
Benefit: 5 Storm + Tendrils

[Top]
Meditate/Cruel Bargain/Infernal Contract
LED/Dark Ritual
LED/Dark Ritual
Lotus Petal
Tendrils of Agony
[Bottom]

Cost: 1U/UU, 2 life, Brainstorm in hand OR Sensei's Divining Top in play, 2 cards in hand
Benefit: 9 Storm + Tendrils

[Top]
Brainstorm/Sensei's Divining Top
LED
LED
Ill-Gotten Gains
Tendrils of Agony
[Bottom]

There have been many posts summarizing the piles in the preceding pages. You might look for posts by emidln.

--LOLOLOLOLOL