-1 Jace Beleren
-1 Moat
-1 Oblivion Ring
-1 Hoofprints
-1 Shackles
-1 Wasteland
-1 Faerie Conclave
+1 Standstill
+1 Wrath of God
+1 Eternal Dragon
+1 Enlighten Tutor
+1 Mishra's Factory
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Dust Bowl
Basically, you're running way too many worthless 1-ofs that force you to mull more opening hands than you'd expect to. Wrong answer = dead card. Be more broad and use cards like EE. I know this might contradict WoG, but WoG is more important than Shackles because WoG is vital to your survival specifically. Running more mana is good, and you want at least 25 mana sources.
Dust Bowl > Wasteland. Dust Bowl can be used numerous times without Crucible under Standstill and is really good in the mirror.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
Interesting, I disagree with the counter-top idea, but I could be wrong. I have always followed the footing that countertop is made for aggresive decks that need the extra edge in a mirror or in games they need a softlock in order to prevail. As for landstill with countertop that seems like the completely wrong direction to go in. Thats why dreadstill was formulated.
25 mana sources is absolutely correct. I don't know how good crucible is in the 3 color mods, but I do know that in the four color mods its basicly been dropped and dif informed me that hed rather run another dragon over it for early game consistency/ win condition in the late game. I agree with this.
I dont like countertop also in landstill because it follows suite to what you already have against combo/ aggro. Your already kicking the crap out of both of them and the mere fact that you are adding 4 cards that may or may not be effective is kind of flush to me.
Using the E-tutor toolbox you can play 3 tutors, drop the 2 wishes and leave 1 oblivion ring MD as an all-around solution. I think you should play standstill #4 and WoG #3. I've never been a fan of hoofprints (and now Krosan Grip is everywhere...).
Thanks for all the feedback !
@Jace : He has been from stellar to crap (although he's always FoW fodder).
With Standstill your opponent choose when you draw (even if the choice is sometime forced due to Soldier and Assembly worker beatdown) : EOT when you have 6+ cards in hand. It's ok and all 'cause it's card quality and quantity but they're prepared for it.
With jace (it's even better when you control the board with CB) you can generate CA overTime (ie better lateGame). The Epic Control used to run him with Meditate with some success I've eared...
Additionaly, Jace minors the 'on-the-top' drawback of the E.Tutors which is a big plus.
Sometimes I really want to draw into him, but with no way to tutor for the lone 1-of I do think the 4th Standstill is better, sadly.
With Jace gone, Moat is questionnable. And with Moat, Hoofprints (the K.Grip weakness is really revelant) and Conclave are, too.
@the 1-ofs : They weren't a problem cause they're part of the E.Tutor toolbox and are enought powered on their own to put your opponent in serious trouble (see Moat) and are rarely seen in multiples in your opening hand.
I agree they're occasionally the wrong answers at the wrong time so I must found which one is worth the slot. (Per example, 3 E.E is too much with 2-3 ways to tutor into them, so O.Ring//Shackles is an good option that up the 3cc slot for the CB//tutor engine...)
So it needs to be tweaked, and adapted depending of the Meta I suppose.
@DustBowl : I have yet to test the card. Sure it might be better than Wasteland without crucible, but you need to invest waaaay more mana into it, and it looks like it needs crucible for recurring the land sacc'ed, or am I misleading ?
@Cunning Wish : Why drop'em ?! Only because of the already present E.Tutor engine ?! E.Tutor can't get Dust to dust (even though O.Ring is nice vs opposing CB), nor Pulse, blasts and so-on.
I thought UWb 'WishStill' was a competitive archetype mainly due to the wishboard... amIwrong ?
I have no playtest session coming soon, so I'll continue with MWS but for know I concurr the list is overstretched and have some unconsistency issues.
I'll try to put some feedback on my own this week if work (and FableII) doesn't take all my time.
(sorry if my post is a bit messy or ununderstanding. With English not beeing my native language, my train of thoughts is not that easy to translate into)
I never said cunning wish is bad... i play 3 of them... however playing both a wishboard and a Etutor toolbox dilutes the deck too much imho... You're trying to have CB+Top, a wishboard and a maindeck toolbox; too many things, you risk to do everything badly... In my deck i have 3 wishes, 1 SB ET and no CB+Top; however i'm happy if somebody tests different approaches to the deck...
Well, with the Cunning Wishes along with the Maindecked E. Tutors, both causing speed disadvantage and pulling the deck in too many directions, seems... no bueno. Also, having MD and SB bullets also takes up more space than you most likely want to, and running only one or the other is preferable to both (the exception being a E. Tutor in the side, I presume).Originally Posted by lolosoon
Team Battletoadz: Fuck the Meta-police?
If it's all in our heads, it's best that we don't loose them.
What? No! The point is to drop Humility turn 4, then sit on crappy things deplete your life until you can make a giant DoJ and just win. Having ETutor and Cunning Wishes only advance your game plan. Running ETutors also allow you to board in silver bullets.
Just run generally versatile cards or just really powerful cards; Humility, EE, and Crucible come to mind. Nothing else more is needed, and we do, it's more than likely Top and Counterbalance.Also, having MD and SB bullets also takes up more space than you most likely want to, and running only one or the other is preferable to both (the exception being a E. Tutor in the side, I presume).
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
Huh?
Also, boarding in bullets to tutor for seems kinda blah. I mean, what do you tutor for out of the board? Crypt? Whoops, to late. You really shouldn't board in more Humilities, they're MD cards... iDunno.
Again, huh? A bullet Oblivion Ring, a bullet Moat, only 2 EEs, only one CoW, and a bullet Shackles seems pretty dilute to me, all things considered. Having more ways to get Humility/ EE/ whatever is good, but not having enough to just draw them when you want them (i.e. not enough) isn't. Playing E. Tutor generally leads to some wtf choices, like singleton Oblivion Rings, curring EEs, and Oblivion Stone, amongst other things. Obviously Humility, EE, Crucible and whatnot are good, but it makes me wonder if just running more of them wouldn't be better...
Also, Runed Halo is nice to have as a bullet if you're running E. Tutor, but I really dislike MD bullets. I'd play more than one.
Cunning Wish, on the other hand, doesn't lead people to bad choices, isn't card-disadvantage, is compact, doesn't dilute the MD with bullets, and doesn't take a whole lot of room (3 slots MD and 2-4 slots in the board v. 5-8 slots in the MD, just counting bullets and tutors). Running E. Tutor in the 'board gives you access to more copies of Humility et al without exactly 'competing' with C. Wish directly. The issue of tempo and card-disadvantage is still prevalent, though :\
Team Battletoadz: Fuck the Meta-police?
If it's all in our heads, it's best that we don't loose them.
You lose a Humility to Krosan Grip, you tutor up a new one; setting up Counterbalance? Hell ya!
As for silver bullets;
Counterbalance against combo
Null Rod against Affinity, combo
Story Circle against Thresh/Vial Goblins
Sphere of Law/Circle of Protection: Red against Dragon Stompy/Vial Goblins
Runed Halo vs. combo and Ichorid
Arcane Lab/Rule of Law vs. Combo
Pithing Needle vs. mirror match, Survival, Vial Goblins, other random things
E-Plagues vs. Ichorid, Vial Goblins
Seal of Cleansing vs. Dragon Stompy
Sacred Ground vs. 43 Land, Aggro Loam
I didnt mention Oblivion Ring here because it sucks against everything post-board.
Again, why the fuck would I endorse terrible cards like Moat and Oblivion Ring? I told him to cut those cards.Again, huh? A bullet Oblivion Ring, a bullet Moat, only 2 EEs, only one CoW, and a bullet Shackles seems pretty dilute to me, all things considered. Having more ways to get Humility/ EE/ whatever is good, but not having enough to just draw them when you want them (i.e. not enough) isn't. Playing E. Tutor generally leads to some wtf choices, like singleton Oblivion Rings, curring EEs, and Oblivion Stone, amongst other things. Obviously Humility, EE, Crucible and whatnot are good, but it makes me wonder if just running more of them wouldn't be better...
Humility = Bomb
They counter it, you tutor up another one.
EE = versatility
you tutor it up to blow random shit up.
Crucible = mana stabilization
you tutor it because your mana base is fucking horrendous sometimes and being able to get WW simply by playing an Enlighten Tutor is kinda awesome.
Besides that, you can tutor up a win condition when you have Humility established.
Counterbalance = Bomb vs. Combo, Bomb vs. Threshold.
You tutor this up because you happen to have a piece of the countertop combo, or because Counterbalance is just decent against combo.
Nothing more though. And I never said anything else more.
Who said anything about MD bullets? Humility is a pretty awesome one because it's a creature format. EE is just versatile. Why would you need more flexible answers; you run ETutor because it's a good post-board card.Also, Runed Halo is nice to have as a bullet if you're running E. Tutor, but I really dislike MD bullets. I'd play more than one.
When I play ETutor, I tend to play it like ATS; you use Enlighten Tutor to find the card that advances your game plan only (Survival of the Fittest, or in this case, Humility), then silver bullets out of the Sideboard.
Again, I never said that when I run ETutor, I want to run maindeck silver bullets. Also, Cunning Wish sometimes, sucks, because it takes up your Sideboard space. Playing Cunning Wish against combo compared to ETutor sucks because Cunning Wish only gets you Extirpate. Like that ends the game. ETutor can get you a wide array of silver bullets and by playing multiples, you will force them into eventually overextending turns and resources to answer your bullets thus taking you into a later stage of the game giving you inevitability.Cunning Wish, on the other hand, doesn't lead people to bad choices, isn't card-disadvantage, is compact, doesn't dilute the MD with bullets, and doesn't take a whole lot of room (3 slots MD and 2-4 slots in the board v. 5-8 slots in the MD, just counting bullets and tutors).
Humilities are important, but they arent the main reason to run ETutor. The reason to run ETutor is to be able to execute your game plan properly Game 1, and still be able to maneuver Post-Board without running too many narrow cards in a deck with a wish board present to help you, such as a playset of 4 Hydroblasts and/or Meddling Mages which of course not only offers you raw power but also versatility. The trade-off is the card disadvantage. Of course, if you're already being able to move into midgame which is where your deck has inevitability, then the card disadvantage doesnt matter because by then, your silver bullet stalled for enough time to make the quality of the cards in your hand superior to your opponents and you have the most land drops.Running E. Tutor in the 'board gives you access to more copies of Humility et al without exactly 'competing' with C. Wish directly.
I'll say this over and over again; Etutor = Doesnt sink much tempo, card quality can be better than card advantage if that card quality used is to advance your game plan. This this case, you have even more ways of advancing your Academy Ruins lock, Crucible lock, and/or just plain Humility resolution.The issue of tempo and card-disadvantage is still prevalent, though :\
Cunning Wish is good at doing those things too, but you need more mana to be able to do those things. Also, being able to dodge discard and play around Daze is nice, and ETutor can get around those cards.
Cunning Wish is only for the card advantage spot, but again, when we cast Cunning Wish, being able to resolve Humility pre-board against Thresh is much more important then just casting Extirpate to remove 4 Thresh guys from the game. If we're going to cast Humility, then just running ETutor would just be as efficient.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
I agree with all that, I just don't agree with the typical "E. Tutor + singleton bullets" theory. Extra copies of Humility? Yes please. Extra copies of EE? Fuck yeah. More Crucibles? Who doesn't like consistent land drops for infinity? But other crap doesn't make me go :D quite so much.
Looking at that list:
Counterbalance against combo- sure, but is that with or without Top?
Null Rod against Affinity, combo- really?
Story Circle against Thresh/Vial Goblins- or just Argo in general, good call.
Sphere of Law/Circle of Protection: Red against Dragon Stompy/Vial Goblins- Errr, why not just Story Circle if it's a Goblins Problem? Or E. Plague? Or Propaganda? Or, you know, Humility? Also, wouldn't you rather board in 4x BEB? I guess then you start to look at boarding plans and whatnot to see if there's even space.
Runed Halo vs. combo and Ichorid- Why Ichorid? Against the Ichorids themselves? Sounds like a... rather bad investment. iDunno. I like the Halos, but not against Ichorid. Maybe I'm an idiot.
Arcane Lab/Rule of Law vs. Combo- Counterbalance is better
Pithing Needle vs. mirror match, Survival, Vial Goblins, other random things- Yeah, but again, as a bullet or more than one?
E-Plagues vs. Ichorid, Vial Goblins- rite, but is that a singleton or 4x in the board?
Seal of Cleansing vs. Dragon Stompy- Maybe. It's better than nothing, I guess.
Sacred Ground vs. 43 Land, Aggro Loam- and 'Geddon Stax et al. I might like Crucible better, though.
In general it just seems like you were stretching for cards to use with E. Tutor. Humility, EE, Crucible, Counterbalance, Pithing Needles, and maybe Halos are the only cards I could see using, and most likely none of them as singletons. And Seal, if I'm worried about Dragon Stompy, but I'd be more prone to run Oblivion Rings than Seals.
But focusing on Counterbalance, I assume you would use Top as well, so that begs the question: do you run SDT in the main? If so, how many? If not, why? Are you playing Counterbalance main? etc.
Team Battletoadz: Fuck the Meta-police?
If it's all in our heads, it's best that we don't loose them.
Like I said; in the maindeck, all you need are those cards.
Usually, you have to tutor Counterbalance up first. You do this because as long as you flip over a land, they cant play Moxes or LEDs. This buys you time to do other things. Sadly, you're destined to lose pre-board anyways. Post-board is where tutoring for Counterbalance becomes a more sensible maneuver to make.Counterbalance against combo- sure, but is that with or without Top?
I assumed you've never made Top against FT before. Also, TES lives off of 4 Petals, 4 LEDs, and 3-4 Moxes. It would make sense here too, considering it's 20% of their deck and 50% of their mana.Null Rod against Affinity, combo- really?
I forgot to mention Dragon Stompy as well.Story Circle against Thresh/Vial Goblins- or just Argo in general, good call.
Circle of Protection: Red gets around Blood Moon because the cost is one colorless.Sphere of Law/Circle of Protection: Red against Dragon Stompy/Vial Goblins- Errr, why not just Story Circle if it's a Goblins Problem? Or E. Plague? Or Propaganda? Or, you know, Humility? Also, wouldn't you rather board in 4x BEB? I guess then you start to look at boarding plans and whatnot to see if there's even space.
They're alright. They're meant to only be cast against Ichorids or Tendrils of Agony usually. You can board this in against Thresh if you're boarding Story Circle in.Runed Halo vs. combo and Ichorid- Why Ichorid? Against the Ichorids themselves? Sounds like a... rather bad investment. iDunno. I like the Halos, but not against Ichorid. Maybe I'm an idiot.
CounterbalanceTop is a combo, therefore they need to be assembled in order to be effectively used; Rule of Law can just be tutored up. Once you establish Rule of Law, you go for CounterbalanceTop to protect Rule of Law.Arcane Lab/Rule of Law vs. Combo- Counterbalance is better
Silver Bullet. Academy Ruins recurs Needle, so you probably wont need more.Pithing Needle vs. mirror match, Survival, Vial Goblins, other random things- Yeah, but again, as a bullet or more than one?
1-2-of. You run ETutors, remember?E-Plagues vs. Ichorid, Vial Goblins- rite, but is that a singleton or 4x in the board?
Crucible can be Powder Keged away. Also, you can still make land drops if Sacred Ground is active.Sacred Ground vs. 43 Land, Aggro Loam- and 'Geddon Stax et al. I might like Crucible better, though.
Story Circle, Rule of Law, Null Rod, Planar Void, Sacred Ground. Also, Teferi's Moat and Nether Void may become new SB options.In general it just seems like you were stretching for cards to use with E. Tutor. Humility, EE, Crucible, Counterbalance, Pithing Needles, and maybe Halos are the only cards I could see using, and most likely none of them as singletons. And Seal, if I'm worried about Dragon Stompy, but I'd be more prone to run Oblivion Rings than Seals.
My list?But focusing on Counterbalance, I assume you would use Top as well, so that begs the question: do you run SDT in the main? If so, how many? If not, why? Are you playing Counterbalance main? etc.
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
1 [A] Underground Sea
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [R] Tundra
2 [LRW] Plains (3)
2 [9E] Island (1)
1 [B] Scrubland
1 [B] Tropical Island
1 [A] Savannah
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
// Creatures
2 [SC] Eternal Dragon
// Spells
4 [U] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
4 [A] Counterspell
2 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [TE] Humility
2 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [MR] Rule of Law
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [10E] Story Circle
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [IN] Teferi's Moat
SB: 1 [WL] Null Rod
SB: 1 [US] Planar Void
SB: 1 [8E] Sacred Ground
SB: 1 [5E] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
The list looks good... I just want to know, why all the two ofs?
It seems like the deck is a little out of focus, and needs a bit more time so as to round out some of the numbers.
Also, the whole point of the black splash is extirpate... then why only 1 in the board? I understand that you also have planar void, but that still is only 2 GY hate cards... I would like to see your thoughts on this, b/c I am seeing lots of loam in my meta.
The CB/top was sexy, although I think I would play the CBs in the board, adding in a few more removal spells that you could take out for the combo MU.
The list looks great though, and I will have to test it.
The midgame technically isn't late game. The 2-ofs help here. DoJ is for the late game, Cunning Wish is for the midgame, the Humilities are ftw, and the ETutors turns everything into a playset.
It truly does need more time. So far, the deck seems somewhat perfect thus far. The Sideboard at the moment, however, is extremely questionable.It seems like the deck is a little out of focus, and needs a bit more time so as to round out some of the numbers.
EE. Also, http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dgbs8px8_0grhzd6dg, two black sources just to run EE and Extirpate.Also, the whole point of the black splash is extirpate... then why only 1 in the board? I understand that you also have planar void, but that still is only 2 GY hate cards... I would like to see your thoughts on this, b/c I am seeing lots of loam in my meta.
1 Counterbalance is fine. So far, nothing feels clogged, and nothing feels out of place. Every single card does something, and the ETutors becomes something useful depending on the phases that are taking place within the game.The CB/top was sexy, although I think I would play the CBs in the board, adding in a few more removal spells that you could take out for the combo MU.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
@Citrus-God:
I find the idea of an E.T. toolbox-delux fancy. tbh though, even mediocre combo decks are going to feast on your soul if all SB hate you're putting in their way is 1 Halo and 1 Rule of Law (even if you ran 12 E.T.s).
Seriously, I've had trouble beating combo (FT, Solidarity) with 4 Meddling Magi and 2 Runed Halo (1 E.T., 1 Halo main). Also, I still consider Meddling Mage the #1 combo hoser.
Klaus
Last edited by klaus; 10-27-2008 at 10:30 AM.
I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with soul feasting as he runs countertop, but I don't see how hes get them consistently early enough then wish for something of relevance. I have REALLY come to appreciate meddling mage, and I think it could be a mistake not to run it.
-EDITED-
I've done some testing on Vindicates and they're..well, really good. I still doubt they're enough to replace WoG entirely, which is why I added 2 Edicts to the MB. Testing will tell, whether my changes to the officially agreed upon core list marks an improvement or not..
Browsing the webs for inspiration and structuring some brainfarts, I came to the following list (beware: no WoG, no Cunning Wish o0):
Uwb Landstill_5.0
4 Standstill
4 STP
4 BS
4 FOW
2 CS
3 Spellsnare.................the CS Snare split seems aight to me.
1 Ponder
3 Vindicate...................multi-purpose thing, pseudo-WoG
3 EE
2 Humility
2 Decree of Justice
1 Elspeth
1 Crucible
2 Smother.........................making up for the lack of WoG
(36)
1 Dustbowl
6 Fetch
3 Sea......................I cut the 4th Tundra in favor of the 3rd Sea
1 Scrub
3 Tundra
2 Plains
2 Island
4 Factory
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
(24)
SB
3 Mage
2 Halo
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Engineered Plague
2 Relic of Progenitus....I've done little testing with it. Sofar it rocks.
2 Extirpate
3 BEB
1 Wrath of God
Let me know what you think.
Last edited by klaus; 10-28-2008 at 11:59 AM.
Against meathooks I boarded out standstill and boarded in meddling mage + e tutor to find humility, because game 1 I played EE at 2 three times and wrath once and lost to hiberation sliver.
Against red thresh, I boarded in runed halo for wrath and ajani for krosan grip (he didn't show counterbalance).
Against dreadstill, I boarded in ajani/crucible just to give me more win conditions. All you have to do in this matchup is force them to play threats. They can't recur their man lands, so you sit under humility and decree when they are tapped out.
Against goblins, He smashed me game 1 like it's supposed to happen. I boarded in runed halo and boarded out my krosan grips. Runed halo on piledriver and sgc can win you the game. Game 3, I boarded in ajani for ee because I felt wrath and swords was enough to win it for me. Game 3, I drew of hand of wog, wog, humility, humility, land, land, land. I thought to myself, "Man I should play with my hand on the table," so I did.
Against Tombstalker, I boarded out eternal dragon for ajani for a better win condition. I swung with an 18/18 vigilance guy game 2.
Against Survival, I board out force, counterspell, standstill for ajani, meddling mage, krosan grip, runed halo. Don't ask me why, I have no board stragety for survival and wished pithing needle was there to be my savior. I did get my opponent to 6 twice using only a single mishra's factory and 3 swords in my opening hand.
I really wish I had pithing needle in the board. I think I could have won the meathooks matchup if I could land a needle on hibernation sliver and actually kill his guys with wrath/ee. Now that I think about it, needle on hiberation sliver doesn't help me in that matchup, maybe I need wrath of god with split second, anyone have some I can buy?
This is an addition post to my Grid top 8 one page back. I hope this helps.
Last edited by rockout; 10-27-2008 at 03:15 PM. Reason: Needle would have won me both matches I lost
Co-Founder of Team Awesome - I heard Randy Buehler say a while back that good players give themselves the most number of turns to find the answer.
The Source on MTGO - Predator8785 and RockOut
Meddling Mage and Runed Halo are tied in my book for first. Both are extremely solid and versatile which is why I run each as a 3-of in my side board. Game one against combo it will come down to if you have the force or not.
Co-Founder of Team Awesome - I heard Randy Buehler say a while back that good players give themselves the most number of turns to find the answer.
The Source on MTGO - Predator8785 and RockOut
Again, same thing... Create some kind of lock thing. But if you guys feel that Meddling Mages are the beez-kneez against Combo, just take out four silver bullets from my Sideboard and replace them in there with Mages.
@mossivo1986: You should be boarding in other things as well; Needles for Top, Null Rod for mana sources, Rule of Law, Runed Halo... and such.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
Pithing Needle does few against Hibernation Sliver, beacuse all the other Slivers named Crystaline, Sinew,... have the hability itself. Sure Hibernation will die, but all the other won't.
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