[Discussion] Melting Pot For Thoughts On Extirpate

[frogboy]

It's going to be a lot more efficient to have all of these in one place so that Gearhart doesn't have to go through the entire site yelling at people for playing the card. Later, I might go through and move some posts into here to kick off some discussion.

I like how you boarded in Extirpate all day and it was never relevant enough for you to mention.

That's Extirpate for you folks. Fucking awful.

Anyway, congratulations on the Top 8.

Out of curiosity, have you tested other Survival builds and then just settled on Di's?

I think Dave Price's Survival list is pretty good, and I like certain aspects of it quite a bit more than in Di's list. Have you tested both?

Extirpate is not awful. What happens is people board it in against the wrong decks or play it in a decks sideboard where the deck cannot take advantage of extirpates long term effect.

• If you have a deck that could lose because you needed extirpate to be a removal spell then extirpate should not be in your deck.
• If you have a deck that is fast or has some tempo in it than you cannot take advantage enough of extirpate's long term effect and the card is not for your deck.

It does not fit in every deck. Test it in a deck it does fit in like Landstill or The Rock.

It is true that people board it in against the wrong decks and play it in a decks sideboard where the deck cannot take advantage of extirpates long term effect. Not only do I think the card is bad, but it incourages bad play descisions on top of that.

I don't even think it's good in a deck where you want to get long term advantage out of it. I think too often the card disadvantage of it makes you lose out in the short, and games where you expect to win in the long run, don't even get that far cause you wasted time and cards extirpating when you could have been effecting the board state.

[Belgareth]

Didn't dave do a good enough job telling people that it's a bad card ?

[Peter_Rotten]

I edited into the original post a few of the relevant posts.

[Skeggi]

Oh boy, this is going to be a long discussion of "It sucks!" vs. "It rocksz!". In my opinion, saying Extirpate is bad is dumb. Extirpate is situationally a very broken card. These situations are, however, not as common as most people seem to believe, but they do occur. So, Extirpate, situationally good and situationally bad. I don't believe we have to waste any more words on the subject.

[Nightmare]

I don't believe we have to waste any more words on the subject.

Good thing it isn't up to you!

Sure.

There are a couple of reasons why I think Extirpate is bad.

1) It doesn't affect the board.

2) It hardly ever affects the game in a really meaningful manner.

3) In it's job as a grave hate, it's sorely lacking. Other cards are better.

4) Nine times out of ten, the card is card disadvantage.

5) In order to use it "proactively", you must combo it with another card. The fact that Extirpate requires you to use another card to make Extirpate good is telling. I'll grant you that sometimes the other cards are good (Sinkhole, Wasteland, Thoughtseize), but you'd be better served playing an actually good card instead of Extirpate.

6) Using it reactively is generally poor as well. As that means they've already successfully used whatever card it is you're hoping to stop. In the case of Life from the Loam, they're up +2 cards, while you're down -1. That's not the kind of trade you can continue to make.

I could keep going if you like, but those are probably the biggest primary points. I think Extirpate fails spectacularly at everything it seems designed to do, and that points to it being fucking terrible.

I played the card for months, and I've tested it extensively. I used to think the card was useful, but I was completely wrong. Months of extensive testing and tournament data has proven that Extirpate is bad.

[Deep6er]

I approve of the amount of David Gearhart in this thread. It gladdens me.

Also, high five Nightmare, that was the exact quote I was going to go dig for. Thanks.

A bit more of (anecdotal) evidence, but every time I've played against somebody playing Extirpate, they've always broadcast the Extirpate like hell. An immediate interest in my graveyard, followed by asking how many cards in my hand might as well tell me, "hey, David, what card should I Extirpate?"

Not that it honestly says much, (I did say it was anecdotal) but Extirpate is probably the second easiest split second card to see coming (with Krosan Grip coming in first).

[Happy Gilmore]

Oh boy, this is going to be a long discussion of "It sucks!" vs. "It rocksz!". In my opinion, saying Extirpate is bad is dumb. Extirpate is situationally a very broken card. These situations are, however, not as common as most people seem to believe, but they do occur. So, Extirpate, situationally good and situationally bad. I don't believe we have to waste any more words on the subject.

Situational is always bad, always. I don't believe we have to waste any more words on the subject.

[Anusien]

Leyline of the Void and Swords to Plowshares are both situationally bad.

Extirpate seems like it has some uses against Ichorid and decks like ITF. If you can catch an Intuition deck right after they Intuition and nail Loam, they're going to be in potentially big trouble. Modern decks have compensated but that used to be a big problem for a lot of the Loam tog decks, for example.

[Nightmare]

Extirpate seems like it has some uses against Ichorid and decks like ITF. If you can catch an Intuition deck right after they Intuition and nail Loam, they're going to be in potentially big trouble. Modern decks have compensated but that used to be a big problem for a lot of the Loam tog decks, for example.

Crypt is better against both types of decks. In both those situations, so is Cremate.

[quicksilver]

I can understand why people think it is a very good card. It's because it's very situational. It can win you games, and when it does it's pretty obvious. But it can also lose you games, and when it does it's not so obvious.

Under certain circumstances I would say that extirpate is a fine card. When you need to remove one card from a graveyard it is fine. That's probably about it. Say you need to remove a squee from a graveyard, or remove some regrowth or reanimate target in response, then I think the card is fine. It's a 1 for 1 trade. Of course in this situation I can probably think of a good number of cards that would be better.

Under most other circumstances I do not think it's fine. When people use it to try to prevent someone from drawing that card again, that is bad. Unfortunatly this is how most people use it. Say there is a card in someone's graveyard not doing anything and you extirpate it to prevent them from drawing another one of them that is bad. More often than not it will do nothing except cost you a card and a black mana.

Unfortunatly extirpate often seems to cause people to play it in that second situation. In fact I often see it side boarded in against decks that don't even use the graveyard.

Let me give you some aniticdotal evidence:

Playing survival I have had times when they destroy a survival then extiprate it to prevent me from drawing another one. Now sometimes I have a witness in hand and I witness something back and beat them with the card advantage extirpate gave me.

Another time I had a bayou destroyed and extirpated without running any other lands that produce black. My opponent thought this was great. But I didn't even have any black cards in hand, then a few turns late I draw a birds of paradise, then a shriekmaw the turn after. It didn't impact me in the slightest, and even if I didn't have birds, at best that would have been a 1/1 trade there, and only regaining that card disadvantage after several turns.

I think extirpate is terribe when used to try to prevent people from drawing a certain card, and marginal when used to take a relevant card out of a graveyard. I think the card encourages bad play.

Once in a while it can be very good for you and I think people focus on the good times and easily ignore the bad times since the good times are far more obvious than the bad times.

[jrp]

Extirpate is fucking terrible. That being said, I did find that having a copy in Fetchland Tendrils was valuable. It basically let me run an IGG-loop through a Force of Will in the graveyard, kind of like Orim's Chant, except I got to peek at my opponent's hand to determine my line of play before committing before committing any other resources.

[freakish777]

I, for one, think Extirpate used properly, and in the correct context, is extremely powerful (ie, it should only ever be a sideboard card).

Extirpate is a kick in the junk against Ichorid, their only out in their deck/sideboard is Chalice@1 if they even still play that card (and they have to get to 2 mana to do it). For those of you still doing things like Extirpating dredgers instead of Bridges, Ichorids or Narcomoebas (with the trigger on the stack), in that order, you're are playing the card incorrectly against Ichorid. What good is dredging your deck if the explosive cards have already been removed from the deck? In my opinion the card is more powerful then any other answer to Ichorid at the moment and for this reason alone is worth considering as a sideboard option.

Furthermore, in the 4C Threshold mirror, Extirpating Swords to Plowshares, or Nimble Mongoose (or SDT if you're lucky enough to Seize it on turn 1) is a beating even if you give up a card to do it. Leaving the opponent without answers to your Goyfs and Enforcers is brutal. Extirpating Goyf? Kinda meh here.

In the control mirror, Extirpating threats like Decree of Justice, Misrha's Factory, or Eternal Dragon (with it's cost paid and the activation on the stack) typically leave you with more Trump left in the deck than the opponent. In such long games, the usefulness of the card is far more likely to be fully realized.


Less strong argument:

As an aggro or aggro control deck against a control deck, you go for Brainstorms or Swords as it takes away their tempo plays that help keep them in the game early (if you don't draw a lot of threats and they draw Wrath they still need to draw mana to cast it). Not the strongest argument, but dead maindeck cards are dead maindeck cards, and against a control deck like Landstill, Extirpate is better than Tormod's Crypt typically. Extirpate also tends to be on par with Tormod's Crypt against Aggro Loam (you give up getting rid of the lands in their bin with the ability to not let them cycle a land to save Loam).

[Deep6er]

I disagree here.

1) The point that you're missing with Extirpate against Ichorid is the question of, "will you mulligan for it?" If the answer is yes, then you've effectively mulliganed to x-1. If no, then getting blown out because you didn't have your hate is a logical way for you to lose that game.

Additionally, Extirpate is still the easiest graveyard hate to see coming. Unmask and Cabal Therapy are going to be huge beatings for you. If you didn't drop Crypt/Leyline on turn 0/1, then it's pretty obvious you have either Jailer or Extirpate. The benefit in assuming this is the fact that if they're wrong, and you don't have it, you have no relevant plays.

The fact that you're sitting on Extirpate (and in many cases obviously so), greatly weakens it's value against Ichorid players. Crypt is so much stronger and requires them to dramatically alter their structure of plays, while Leyline is the strongest (supposing you land it on turn 0) in that their plays are dominated by the logistical nightmare of finding an answer to it and then beating you in a short timeframe.

I have to go, but I'll finish this when I get back.

[quicksilver]

I disagree here.

1) The point that you're missing with Extirpate against Ichorid is the question of, "will you mulligan for it?" If the answer is yes, then you've effectively mulliganed to x-1. If no, then getting blown out because you didn't have your hate is a logical way for you to lose that game.

I'm not sure if i follow you here, could you elaborate on what you mean?

[Illissius]

Extirpate is extremely useful in control decks against Loam decks, especially control decks which don't also have Counterbalance or Chalice.

[Tog]

Again on the same note as being situationally useful, I don't think the ability which Extirpate has to force the OPPONENT to shuffle his library be overlooked either. Against control decks which hide cards on top of their library with Brainstorm after a discard spell, you force them to shuffle away. Against Counter Top which is locking three cc spells plays in your hand, you shuffle away. Occasionally, you run in to Lim-Dul's Vault and Enlightened Tutor as well.

[nitewolf9]

Extirpate is extremely useful in control decks against Loam decks, especially control decks which don't also have Counterbalance or Chalice.

But wouldn't crypt be just as/if not more poweful against loam? You remove EVERYTHING in their graveyard and significantly weaken future loams (or a terrvore that is already on the board), where with extirpate they still have burning wish to get loam back, with everything else still in their yard. Not to mention the synergy with academy ruins, which most control decks are running (or should be running) anyway.

I think the fact that extirpate is severely lacking against ichorid should be enough for a control deck to opt for crypt instead.

[ScatmanX]

In a 49 championship here in Brazil, a guy won with this deck:


(19)
4 ohran viper
4 River Boa
4 goyf
3 baloth
3 shriekmaw
1 geneses
(18)
4 smother
4 Diabolic edit
4 extirpate
3 SDT
3 Pernicious Act
(23)
4 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
6 swamp
8 forest
1 bayou
side:
4 krosan grip
4 CotV
3 Engineered Plague
2 needle
2 tormods

FOUR MD extirpates. and 0 Discard.
Against ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, he would get hit by STP an FoW only once, destroyed some combos. Agains MonoU, removed the Shackles... Agais goblins, Just one Warchief, Revolucionary Leader or Piledriver. In a game, he used on 2 different fetch lands, screweing the opponents manabase.
His only complains were about the 1 Bayou, wich he is dutting out, because aways were destroyed by wastelands.

Though I would put some discard main, less Crature kill, and a Volrath's Stronghold, he won the championship, so i really don't know what to think.

Sry about the bad english.
Cya

[Peter_Rotten]

he would get hit by STP an FoW only once

But who is to say that the Thresh would have drawn those cards anyone? Maybe he would have only drawn 1 StP in that match anyway.

Extirpate reminds me of the little kids who mills you with some bad milling card looking carefully at the cards that hit the yard and then says, "ha! I just milled your StP. Now you can't use it."

[jrp]

Extirpate reminds me of the little kids who mills you with some bad milling card looking carefully at the cards that hit the yard and then says, "ha! I just milled your StP. Now you can't use it."

Exactly what I was thinking. Oh, and sigged.