Nonsense. It's not unbelievable to draw 3x Rite of Flames in within roughly 1/3 of your library, especially when the deck gets shuffled 1-3 times.Wierd situations don't happen all the time. That's like... a direct contradiction.
If my memory serves me right, there's at least one other person on this thread that plays 2x Manamorphose in their list. I wish that person would chip in...
I don't have all the time in the world to come up with situations, all I know is that it's served me well. Upsides include mana-fixing, cantriping, free +1 storm count, -1 lifeloss to AdN compared to SSG. Downsides: Not free mana to cast a RoF off of or to waylay a daze and is basically a filler slot after a draw-7 (I disagree, but I'll digress).
It's a legitimate card choice. As to whether or not you choose to play it is up to you. And playstyle is important as well as a legitimate argument. I put an IT in my SB so I can wish into it and pop my LED's in response to IGG a win OR to grab Ad Nauseam. I bet you don't, and I do this because I am most happy and comfortable with it after extensive testing. This speaks to my playstyle. And holding a Manamorphose has certainly never LOST me a game. I haven't been in a position yet where if my 'morphose would have been an SSG I would have won the game; yes, Daze included. You should always play around daze; bad judgement is often the reason Daze counters something, not running one card over another.You blind your decision based on the fact that you run Mystical Tutor and more Red Rituals, but the synergy with those cards and situations where the card will win you the game will happen much less often than situations where holding Manamorphose will STOP you from winning the game.
Running M. Tutor and extra red rituals are all valid points in favor of running manamorphose.
I'll quit using it when it stops serving me well. I'm not trying to convince you guys to use it, so let's drop it. I'm going to keep using it, but I don't like the banter, and no one's mind is going to change here, so it's a moot point anyway.
Pce,
--DC
Schadenfreude is the most genuine kind of joy, since it doesn't include even a drop of envy.Why can't we just admit it?
What's the point of asking for advice on a decklist with suboptimal choices then? Most people including myself don't like Manamorphose, Desperate Ritual, and Mystical tutor. SSG, Cabal Ritual, and Ponder/Duress are just better choices. Many people agree with me and have results to prove that these choices are better.
I'm not sure I ever asked for help. I was simply sharing my experiences, and then suddenly people just started jumping all over my statements. I suppose I don't care if you guys like any of those cards, but they have been working for me and I wanted to discuss and share my success. I assumed that's what the thread was for. My mistake. I guess conformity trumps everything else...
I'm through with this thread. I'll continue to play my list and have much success in doing so, but I'll not continue posting on this thread as nothing constructive ever comes out of it unless Bryant suggests it and you guys adhere to it simply because of his recommendation.
Back to the FDDT thread I go.
--DC
Schadenfreude is the most genuine kind of joy, since it doesn't include even a drop of envy.Why can't we just admit it?
Don't take it personally. We're not attacking you, we're attacking the ideas, because that's the only way to promote improvement. I'm leaving the issue alone, because as you said, noones mind is going to change on the issue, but don't insult all of us by saying that nothing constructive ever comes out of this thread. Your card choices are nothing new and innovative. They are cards that have been tried and disliked already. If you'll check the first post, there are a list of cards that have filtered in and out of the deck. This deck has changed so much over the last year or so, and you speak great ignorance when you say that nothing constructive ever happens here. If there was a new card printed that fits into the deck (Ad Nauseam) or some beautiful new card interaction discovered, then of course we would play around with it. Right now, Bryant has what he believes is the strongest list possible at the current moment. I don't adhere to it because he said so. I adhere to it because in theory and in testing it works the best. Talking down to us about conformity only enforces the idea in my mind that you're missing the point alltogether. Magic isn't about building your own deck. It's about winning. Play to win. You're having great success because the deck is busted, not because you play with those changes. You can thank Bryant for that too.Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
First off, I'll thank Brandon Adams (Emidln), as he's the one who came up with FT, and in my opinion is the better storm deck with better matchups against more DTB and control.
Mystical Tutor and Manamorphose were both tested and dismissed pre-AdN. Since the release of AdN, the theory of this deck has changed drastically; it's much less blind luck and much more Dark Confidant on meth on meth. Retesting is necessary, and while I've never t8ed at a tournament (having no legacy tourneys around here) with storm, I play with my buddies, who do have competetive lists (TES, Ichorid, Dragon Stompy, Thresh) and I win extremely consistantly, and believe that my opinion, testing, and thoughts have merit. I'm suggesting you retest. You too, Bryant.
I'll ask you to be honest with your answer for this next question:
Have you tested my list?
Pce,
--DC
Schadenfreude is the most genuine kind of joy, since it doesn't include even a drop of envy.Why can't we just admit it?
For what it's worth, I played 3x Mystical Tutor and 4x Street Wraith in my personal TES builds pre-adn and was completely blown away by its power. Nobody else ever seemed to pick up those changes. I don't think I ever had good results from Mystical Tutor without Top or Street Wraith in TES though. (And yes, I do have a fetchland-based TES list playing SDT, Ad Nauseam, and Mystical Tutor.)
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
There's definitely some lee way for Mystical Tutor in the Ponder slot given the synergy between Mystical Tutor, Ad Nauseam and Lion's Diamond, but I can assure you Manamorphose is a ridiculously bad card in TES no matter what you've seen.
Personally, I don't think Mystical Tutor is necessary, or achieving what your one drops are intended for. You want card parody and you want to find your second land, Mystical Tutor is only really good at finding business and that's simply not what you're looking for in the aggro-control match ups.
And yes, I tested the card way before you brought it up, and no, I'm probably the last person who sides with Bryant on the exact configuration of TES.
Breathweapon: A statement like "I can assure you Manamorphose is a ridiculously bad card in TES no matter what you've seen" holds no merit whatsoever as the exact opposite statement could be made about what you've seen. This is because while there's a truth, there's no absolute way to prove what that truth is because of this exact statement. I'm pretty sure there's a fallacy for this, but I'm a tad rusty on my philosophy.
@ Emidln: I'm not talking about running M. Tutor without a cantrip. I'm using the best cantrip for the configuration that has considerable synergy with other parts of the list. Street Wraith is straight up horrible synergy with AdN. Top could be okay I suppose, but doesn't have the synergy with this list that it does in FDDT. That makes Manamorphose the better choice, and I do think that the free cantripping mana fixer that adds +1 Storm is better than a sneak-through from daze and starting a mana-ramp. I think it's an argument between Manamorphose and Ponder before it's an argument between 'morphose and SSG. I suppose I could try Top, but I don't think it will be as good. In the control matchups possibly, but even then it's more mana intensive and much less productive as no shuffle effects other than ponder are run.
You don't need SSG after Ad Nauseam. You have 6x 0cc artifact mana cards (4 Petal//2 Mox or more) to start your mana ramp again IF you didn't blow up an LED in response to your AdN in the first place. Furthermore, you most likely can still make your land drop for the turn.
Mystical Tutor is not -just- for business spells. It's central purpose is for me to find either my Ad Nauseam or a Chant, sure, but it's also capable of finding a Wish or an IT, as well as any non-artifact mana accel. Most importantly, however, you guys clearly think that countering a Mystical Tutor is bad, and that it should and always does resolve, making it a clear-cut way of finding my singleton AdN, which hugely cuts down on my pain from AdN (an additional could be run in the SB, but I don't; I don't need to). Not hitting 2x other AdN is awesome, and frankly I find it to be one of the major reasons my build works as well as it does. Another relevant point is that I run six points less of lifeloss from an AdN than you guys do via Mystical Tutors and Manamorphose instead of 2x more AdN and 2x SSG.
What the crap do you look for in the Aggro-Control matchup? I look for chants...that's just me. Game 2, I look for those and Shushers. M. Tutor doesn't work for Shushers, but neither does any other relevant tutor in our format.
Personally I don't see how Mystical Tutor isn't being considered an auto-include these days. I can understand you guys not liking Manamorphose, and that's fine, but I don't see how you can justify no Mystical Tutors and multiple AdN. How does that make sense to anyone?
I'm open to better cantrips in place of Manamorphose to test, but I haven't been able to find any. I'll even test -2 Manamorphose +2 Ponder to run the full set, but I really have my doubts, and will not be using SSG. It's an unneccessary slot for the list. Daze withstanding.
I at least appreciate Emidln for chipping in on the Mystical Tutor argument. How often do you take 10 to the dome from 2 cards off of an AdN, breath? I hardly ever do. I don't have a percentage, but I assure you it's not any above 18%.
Pce,
--DC
Schadenfreude is the most genuine kind of joy, since it doesn't include even a drop of envy.Why can't we just admit it?
Not getting Mystical Tutor countered, while your opponent has the means and resources to counter the spell you tutored for, is very bad. That's when running a singleton Nauseam get's you a kick in the balls. Might it get countered, you will have to rely on much worse enablers along with the card advantage you just got yourself from that resolution. Mystical Tutor has to be played carefully and it kinda demands a more controllish build. It's good in FT because FT is slower, can make full use of its silver bullets, can combo without using the graveyard with a relatively small number of cards in hand and with low life, et caetera... all because that's how it was built. TES exploits the scarcity of answers at the early turns, while still pressing the opponent at the wall in the following turns because of very high threat density. Allowing yourself some card disadvantage for an unneeded versatility ends up being a bad deal. That versatility is unneeded because you already have Burning Wish. It won't grab you Nauseam, but it will grab you any win conditions, every other enabler and a handful of answers that will not occupy the maindeck. This has been previously explained in this thread and it's not going to change because Nauseam was printed.
This deck has no answers for a resolved Counterbalance in the maindeck. Holding youself back because of the delay and card disadvantage Mystical Tutor provides you won't help with this subject.
Keep moon-walking.
I really don't think you understand the premise TES was built on and you're just running something geared towards a T2/3 fundamental turn instead of what post Ad Nauseam TES should be. If you're running 1 Ad Nauseam and 4 Mystical Tutor, you're still 100% reliant on tutor -> bomb instead of bomb, which is shaving a turn off your clock.
The problem with Mystical Tutor is that it wins big when it doesn't matter and loses small when it does matter, TES is more sensitive to card disadvantage and top decking than ANT or DDFT because it relies on speed. I don't think it's necessarily a bad choice, but I don't see how "Burning Wish light" is really solving problems. 4x Ad Nauseam is amazing because it makes TES faster and resilient to 1cc counters, which meets the biggest design imperatives of the archetype.
I so don't give a shit about the number of times I take 10 to the dome compared the number of times turn 1 Ad Nauseam GGs my opponents. And personally, I think Orim's Chant and Vexing Shusher are worse than Duress and Blasts now that we don't have to protect tutor chains instead of 1 card bombs.
Sorry to swerve off a bit, but could you grace us with your list BreathWeapon? I don't think I've ever seen the updated version, just wanted to take a peek.
Sure,
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens/Ill Gotten Gains
4 Ad Nauseam
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Glimmervoid
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grape Shot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Hull Breach
1 Thought Seize
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Pyro Blast
Nothing ground breaking, I swap between ETW and IGG for the alternative IT target and the on color disruption makes the deck less mana intensive, Duressing on turn 1 and then Ad Nauseam turn 2 is a lot easier than Orim's Chant + Ad Nauseam turn 2 and post board you've got up to 12 cards that keep Counterbalance off the board.
At Dark Cynic: while I agree Mystical Tutor used to be so bad that I find it unlikely it's good enough now, I am starting to get interested. I think I'll test it, but in theory, it shouldn't be good. It indeed makes the deck much slower, which doesn't look good for this particular version of ToA combo.
Don't think nobody disagrees with Bryant and everyone attacks anything new. I don't agree with Bryants lists many times, as does he, beause I see him changing around cards a lot. Though it is weird that many people say "Bryants list is best" and then the next day he has a different list and they still say it. But ofcourse there are reasons why certain things are accepted and standard. Usually they are better than the many new suggestions, so it's fair to be sceptical, although things should be given a chance, otherwise this thread doesn't have much purpose.
Team Nijmegen
That's the probably the most sensible argument I've heard on this thread for a while. I may be a bit defensive to the scrutiny, but if you will look back over the last few pages, whether they think so or not, the second I mentioned 'Morphose and M. Tutor I got e-mugged. I think that the questions I'm putting forth as well as my stubborness to roll over and go with the flow is actually a very important piece of figuring out the AdN puzzle. I think the number of them is really touchy, and it's not an auto-4x of. Also, the deck plays a bit different now, and choices change a little bit here and there. This is how it goes, and I believe that while it's getting a bit heated, it's what the deck needs--Debate.
Here's my question to those of you running more than one AdN, and definitely a question to those running 4x along with a Tendrils and IGG/EtW--
How often is AdN in multiples actually better than a D. Returns? I understand that you will draw more than 7 cards, but how many do you draw on average and more importantly, how often do you have to stop because of chances of losing before you actually have everything you need?
Next, winning fast is important for a non-control storm list. The later the game gets, the more relevent the rest of their deck becomes. This includes but is not limited to threats, counterspells, CB/Top, Duress//Thoughtseize, and Chant. The more time you give them, the more of these they will hit. This (read: TES) is a non-control storm list, pure and simple. In fact, people used to say that it was better than FT based on this principle alone. Mystical Tutor does in fact make this faster, and in many situations this absolutely counts.
Finally, what's with the 4x SSG in your list, Breath? Shocking...
Pce,
--DC
Schadenfreude is the most genuine kind of joy, since it doesn't include even a drop of envy.Why can't we just admit it?
I currently run 3 AdN and have been happy with the number. Maybe it's just me, but I usually draw between 14-21 cards (this isn't made up, I actually note the number of cards I draw each time). I almost always stop @ 5 life, but of course there are tons of factors that go into this decision making:
-Have I already drawn what I need to win?
-Is it worth it to take the risk? ie, will I die next turn at the hands of my opponent as a result of performing or not performing this action?
-What are the chances of hitting another AdN, IGG, SSG, or Tendrils?
-Have I played a land yet? In other words, if I didn't draw a Gemstone, Orchard, or Paradise, will I have enough life to draw more then play and use City of Brass?
As for how often I stop before I have everything I need before winning...my answers will be different depending on the situation. I've goldfished the list several hundred times already and played a handful of matches. If I've taken a significant amount of damage from beats or brass beforehand, I generally try and use alternative methods to victory, but there have been desperate times where I tried to AdN at a fairly low life-total. Those never end well lol. If I'm goldfishing or playing against a deck that doesn't put pressure on my life-total, I rarely ever stop because I flip too much damage. I can't give you a relative number because I honestly don't remember every time, but it just doesn't happen that often that I'd feel the need to change the deck in any way.
I haven't tested Mystical Tutor enough to say anything about that, but goldfishing showed promise for me as I've stated in another post. The same problems and advantages that have all been mentioned before I felt firsthand while trying the card, so that's all I have on that for now.
4xSSG is shocking? I find 4 0cc sources of R pretty fucking phenomenal in a deck that's resolving a 5c bomb and then looking for SSG -> Rite of Flame(s) to wish for a win con. There's nothing really shocking about it, Cabal Ritual is terrible and that slot is dedicated to mana acceleration, I can't think of a card I'd rather use.
I was just noting that earlier (read: past few days) it was stated that black was the dominant mana accel, which made 'Morphose extremely lackluster (one of the reasons stated). However, in your list it seems black has taken the back seat... Any problem finding black to AdN?
Also, has anyone tested IT in the board as a wish target? I'm suprised I didn't really get slammed for that one, so now I'm going to test my luck.
Pce,
--DC
Schadenfreude is the most genuine kind of joy, since it doesn't include even a drop of envy.Why can't we just admit it?
Black hasn't taken a back seat, SSG and Duress are what let me resolve Ad Nauseam because I'm not tapping a land to cast Rite of Flame and Orim's Chant, it's essentially accomplishing the same goal except I'm not running sub-par 2cc accelerants or mana filters.
The combinatorics are kind of difficult to articulate, shuffle it up and you'll see what I mean.
Other than spell snare (and that's just a stupid play for them), I don't see how 4x 3cc spells are better than 4x 2cc spells other than the free mana, at least not when AdN'ing...what's your list's avg. cmc (I'm pretty sure every AdN player knows his or hers by now)?
I will throw it together, but I'm not expecting any miracles...Maybe I'll be pleasantly suprised...
Pce,
--DC
Schadenfreude is the most genuine kind of joy, since it doesn't include even a drop of envy.Why can't we just admit it?
The difference between 3 damage for SSG and 2 damage for C.Ritual is negligible compared to the difference between a "0cc" accelerant and a 2cc accelerant, the number of cards you have to draw before you draw 1B worth of mana is a lot more than the number of cards you have to draw with "0cc" accelerants because you're looking for cards that start the ritual chain more than you're looking for cards that add to the ritual chain.
Protecting yourself from Daze and pulling R out of your ass for REB are also a big deal, not to mention C. Ritual is a target for Daze and Spellsnare and it's more effective than you give it credit for.
I think you're obsessed with life loss, if you lose to life loss than odds are you weren't going to win the game regardless, I'd run Tinder Wall before I'd run C. Ritual.
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