[Deck] Elf Glimpse Staff

[NCM]

From my build on the first page:

-1 Llanowar Elves
-1 Weird Harvest
-1 Gaea's Herald
-1 Grapeshot
-1 Elvish Spirit Guide
-4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Thoughtseize
1 Orim's Chant
4 Elves of Deep Shadow

Your list on the first page has only 1 Grapeshot. Have you found winning to be more difficult without an actual win condition?

But seriously, are you sure making them skip their turn with Chant after you combo off is the best thing? And when you said it was a turn slower, did you mean because you had to pass the turn to win or does it actually not combo off until a turn later? And could you at least run Concordant Crossroads to win on the same turn?

That said, I still think this is a very good idea.

[yawg07]

@yawg07: Ah, thanks for the explanation, I didn't think the deck could go off without Glimpse as well. So they would have to counter Harvest as well as Glimpse (or they could even counter the Regal Force)...but



doesn't look so good, as an army of, say, four 1/1s and three 2/2s can be dealt with by most decks, even Thresh (if they have a Goyf and Goose out, you will get to deal only nine damage and have no creatures left in this example).

Ah, but don't forget you have Symbiote on the table.
Attack with all the Elves and return whatever one gets blocked.
It is only turn 3 here, more than likely they don't have Threshold YET.
In a turn or two, yes, but for now they aren't blocking with that Goose.

But this also shows largely why I like Elvish Champion in the SB, you become unblockable.


I LOVE Caller of the Claw, but I don't ALWAYS have the mana open to do it.
Fecundity is particularly ridiculous, I love that option. And with 4x Llanowar/4x ESG, it is isn't too hard to lay it down turn 2.
HOWEVER, Caller can be tutored for, even at instant speed with Pact/Chord, which make me like it better.
What do you guys think? One or the other? Both? We need some sort of answer to Clasm/Deed/Dreams/Explosives.


Honestly, Symbiote is one of the best creatures in the whole deck.
It made my Dragon Stompy match last Friday a LOT easier, even game one.
When you can keep returning your Viridian Shaman to keep blowing up problem artifacts, you quickly gain the upper hand.


I agree with the one post about the black splash for Thoughtseize, and running Elves of Deep Shadow.
But in MY list, I'm not sure what I'd cut. It sure as hell wouldn't be Grapeshot. I've used grapeshot as good removal on a small fizzle turn before.
I just wouldn't lose the idea of win NOW that Grapeshot easily grants.

[Noman Peopled]

And could you at least run Concordant Crossroads to win on the same turn?

That said, I still think this is a very good idea.

Well, imo if you're running Crossroads you might as well run a storm win instead. I think Grapeshot is more useful than Crossroads without the combo.

But in MY list, I'm not sure what I'd cut. It sure as hell wouldn't be Grapeshot. I've used grapeshot as good removal on a small fizzle turn before.
I just wouldn't lose the idea of win NOW that Grapeshot easily grants.

I can definitely relate. It sounds like a really good idea in theory. But "by now you have practically won, so you pass the turn" always allows for more options than I'd like.
However, in this case I see no particular difficulty. You'll have drawn multiple Thoughtseizes to make sure Chant isn't countered, then Chant on their upkeep. The only options that I can think of they have are:
- popping EE or Deed (which begs the question why they didn't before, or - if they're short on mana - why you couldn't find Shamans)
- CounterTop activation during their upkeep (maybe they couldn't find a 1CC spell or didn't have mana before; they'll still have to topdeck EE)
- Moat/Worship in play (you'll need a solution for enchantments main unless you don't see those two often; Prison shouldn't be problematic)
- play stuff in response (unlikely as you can just Seize their burn or Brainstorm or whatever)
- a large enough evasive army to kill you (don't forget to kick Chant)
- activated abilities that can kill you (SGC and enough mana, may be a problem since Goblins could also have Fanatics and Sharpshooter; you'd have to be low on life already, though)
Of course, the list is hardly comprehensive. I just can't think of any more atm but as experience shows, others will. Needless to say, you need to find that Chant (and not blow it to keep alive), but the same thing goes for Grapeshot. Which is why I'd like to have a tutorable instant-win, preferably one that can be used pre-combo without sacrificing half your board to a random Terror and requiring seven mana.

Currently I'm even searching for a viable sac outlet to utilize Fecundity as a pre-board draw engine in place of Weird Harvest. Best ones I've come up with so far is Goblin Bombardment, or Altar of Dementia for the ones who are as vary of splashing red as I am. Or maybe just Therapy, Tendrils of Despair - although then I'm running out of creatures. Contamination, maybe?
My head hurts. Don't bother commenting unless you see a good idea in this paragraph somewhere ...

Oh, I found Elf Replica. Maybe that's good for something. Costs as much as Stomphowler/Wickerbough and doesn't touch enchantments, but it can beat earlier and can be paid for over two turns. Plus, it's an elf. But not green, I notice.
Nantuko Vigilante is similar but not an Elf and more susceptible to Chalice @0 as well as CounterTop.
Frankly, I'm not satisfied with the enchantment hate the deck has to offer pre-board. I like Shepherd and Zealot more and more.

[Wobbles The Goose]

@noman

I mean, the hope is that you can discard explosives, dreams, deed, etc before they become a problem. Especially after you combo off. Barring real corner cases like slice and dice, these are all sorcery speed and vunerable to discard. Something to consider so that you aren't having to hold mana open for caller or whatnot. I think you could probably even run a second Chant in place of another Llanowar if you wanted, or if you have a lot of storm combo in your metagame.

I recommend Skirk Prospector for your sac outlet with fecundity. Oh, and goblins. Seriously, weird harvest is great in the deck, it helps you recover from removal, combo explosively, and generally go nuts. Often with negligible side effects.

@NCM

I'm not counting the extra "chant" turn. I'm just counting the turn when you can expect to draw your deck and play all your guys. It goes from being a turn 2-3 thing to being more 3-4 thing, especially because you aren't running something like 4 ESGs. But you buy time and breathing room with the discard, which makes up for the slow down.

Concordant Crossroads is interesting, but not great. I tried it out for a while, but it's hard to have a lethal force. You wind up with a lot of tapped elves. Chant gives you "haste" and "untaps" your guys. Plus it protects you as you combo off, disrupts storm combo and you can return it with witness for the next turn.

@yawg07

I really haven't missed grapeshot. One of the reasons your combo might be fizzling may just be due to practice, but I really can't comment on that. All I can say is that in the scenario you posted on page 3, there are much better ways to go off that net you way more mana and cards. That's all I have to go on. This is a difficult deck and I often find myself realizing better sequences upon retrospect. It reminds me a lot of solidarity.

As far as what to cut, our lists aren't that different. But it's also dependent on the decks you expect to see. If you've got trinisphere's all over the place, 3 viridian shamans makes a lot of since. No size fits all. I am just liking chant over grapeshot.

[georgjorge]

Against Deed/Explosives, Abeyance instead of Chant is strong (they can use it in response, but you won't have much on the board at that time). However, it is a crucial turn too slow against combo

[Wobbles The Goose]

Abeyance seems weaker than chant in almost every conceivable way, except maybe for protecting your combo as you start to go off. Even then, you often don't have the white mana to reliably cast it early and you need to have grapeshot to win that turn.

It's not fast enough against combo, it doesn't stop deed or explosives in play, it does not stop them from top decking explosives/deed/moat if you pass the turn, you cannot combo with it, it does not stop lethal counterattacks, it does not stop goblin sharpshooter.

It does draw a card.

In short, do not play abeyance. :)

[yawg07]

Okay, I built a version of the deck with the black splash.
Thoughtseize is an excellent tool for this deck to adopt.

However, your chant list ... why run chant and attack?
Why not just Thoughtseize their answers out and kill with Grapeshot right then?
It seems like -1 Orim's Chant, +1 Grapeshot is not only more efficient, it is quicker and gives no chance for recovery.

[Noman Peopled]

Okay, I built a version of the deck with the black splash.
Thoughtseize is an excellent tool for this deck to adopt.

However, your chant list ... why run chant and attack?

I thought the reasoning was to have a card that's more useful before the combo or at least more useful in certain/difficult matchups like combo (obv the mana base would need adjusting).

[yawg07]

I thought the reasoning was to have a card that's more useful before the combo or at least more useful in certain/difficult matchups like combo (obv the mana base would need adjusting).

Right, but he only runs one Chant. And his combo involves Chant.

[Noman Peopled]

Right, but he only runs one Chant. And his combo involves Chant.

That's why I suggested a second one (Eternal Witness would work as well). Besides, combo won't do much after a bunch of Thoughtseizes. Well, it's not likely (depending on the specific deck) ... But Grapeshot will do nothing against combo - even one Chant is sometimes CA and always an emergency button, unless they bait with disruption first (then it's a Time Walk).
Not saying it's necessarily the way to go, just that the idea has merit. It seems like a solid sb plan at least, if you have the mana base.

[badjuju]

I'm a bigger fan of a black splash. Thoughtseizes go a long way in any matchup, especially for ripping out any permanent-based hate.

As for a sac outlet, Saito ran Blasting Station. Not sure if that's what you're looking for (since your guys' versions don't have Hivemaster to abuse it with), but it should be thrown out there I think.

[Noman Peopled]

As for a sac outlet, Saito ran Blasting Station. Not sure if that's what you're looking for (since your guys' versions don't have Hivemaster to abuse it with), but it should be thrown out there I think.

Unless you're short on Taigas and fetchies, Goblin Bombardment would work better against everything but pro-red. Which is not a problem unless paired with Worship.

I also think Saito was gunning at least partly for Elves with that card, which is not really an issue in Legacy. I love the idea of Fecundity+outlet but by the time I got that to work consistently, I was running dangerously low on creatures. Plus, when I fizzled it was baaad (Glimpse leaves you with a fast clock, Fecundity/Bombardment does not). Without Fecundity, an outlet isn't needed.

[Wobbles The Goose]

However, your chant list ... why run chant and attack?

The answers given are all correct. Orim's chant plays so many roles in the deck than grapeshot, and you can definitely run a second. I'm probably going to.

This is a good way to think of it:
Orim's Chant is to Elves as Remand is to Solidarity.

Remand is really useful for allowing Solidarity to kill while ramping to a lower storm count, because you can remand the brain freeze copy back. It's still the brain free that kills you opponent, but it helps. Ultimately, Orim's chant doesn't kill your opponent either, your elves do. But Orim's chant makes this considerably easier by insuring your opponent doesn't get a turn before you get to untap and kill them. Like Remand, Chant also protects your combo on the turn you go off. I don't want people StPing Nettle's or Harvest Druids, or countering glimpses. Chant throws a must counter out there. Finally, chant slows down dangerous plays, like remand. Obviously it has this effect against combo, but it also delays cards like Magus or Trinisphere that you can sometimes see coming.

Meanwhile, grapeshot doesn't. Nomad Peopled had a good list of the corner cases where you absolutely need to "win now", but they are really limited. Besides those few situations where you can't win just with chant, grapeshot is sometimes useful for killing a few creatures. Unfortunately, creatures come bigger in legacy then they do in extended. In LVS's report he basically removes the grapeshot every game post board, except against elves where it is better for killing their guys early. It really isn't a good defensive tool against creature hoards in legacy because those decks aren't popular, with the exception of goblins. Maybe it's tech in that matchup, but I don't think that makes it warrant main deck inclusion.

[DalkonCledwin]

what are this archetypes answers for the following: Cursed Totem, Engineered Plague, Stifle (assuming it is a storm version of the deck), some form of counterspell countering the Glimpse of Nature or other enabler, instant speed artifact removal targeting the staff, or in the case of builds with creatures as win conditions, swords to plowshares?

[yawg07]

what are this archetypes answers for the following: Cursed Totem, Engineered Plague, Stifle (assuming it is a storm version of the deck), some form of counterspell countering the Glimpse of Nature or other enabler, instant speed artifact removal targeting the staff, or in the case of builds with creatures as win conditions, swords to plowshares?

Reading threads is tech.
No one is playing Staff, really.
And we're discussing removal right now.
The generic "OMG you have creatures? How the fuck do you win, because ___ can destroy one or more of your creatures?!?!" post isn't needed here.


I dunno, Thoughtseize seems to solve all the same problems chant does, for me.
If you are afraid someone is going to disrupt you, lead with Thoughtseize. *shrug*
I see why Chant is good, but you have to make yourself vulnerable to Wasteland to even run the black splash correctly.
Running both Black and White opens the deck up to new hate that it doesn't want, but gives it more options.

I think Thoughtseize is a necessary evil, but I'm not sold on Chant yet.
Keep up the testing, though! Build it and take it to real tourneys! That's what I've been doing, it is a ton of fun and it does well.

This color/card rivalry is good, actually. People are actually interested in the deck and if it starts doing well, we'll get Gwb Builds and Gbr builds.

[DalkonCledwin]

Reading threads is tech.
No one is playing Staff, really.
And we're discussing removal right now.
The generic "OMG you have creatures? How the fuck do you win, because ___ can destroy one or more of your creatures?!?!" post isn't needed here.

Okay I will read the thread, but I probably won't find what I am looking for... at any rate... you didn't really answer the question. You simply dodged it. Not to mention that wasn't simply a generic "OMG you have creatures? how the fuck do you win, because ___ can destroy one or more of your creatures?!?!" post... it specified specific cards that totally obliterate your combo and quite nicely. However since you specifically think I will find what I am looking for I will read the entire thread and see what I can find. Hope I do, otherwise this thread is in for a massive rebuttal when I am done. Understand that I come from a place where brutal debate is looked kindly upon :D

[Wobbles The Goose]

Cursed Totem- Doesn't see considerable play, as it does little to any other deck. Bigger artifact problems are chalice for 1 or trinisphere. Builds have been running 0-3 Veridian Shamans maindeck to deal with these threats. If this is a big deal in your metagame, the inclusion of more veridian shaman in the SB is necessary, with the option of krosan grip or indrik stomphowler also being thrown around. Obviously, build the deck to your metagame, especially if you expect to see such specific hate cards.

Engineered Plague- This is an interesting one. The first thing to realize is that this card has really fallen out of favor of late. Look at the lists running black that are top 8ing. They aren't running plague in the main or the side. That said, it's still at least a potential problem. Popular answers include krosan grip, stomphowler, or a lord (usually elvish champion or wilt-leaf liege) in the sideboard. Fortunately, no popular deck is running plague in the main anymore, so a main deck solution isn't that important. Your meta may vary.

Stifle (assuming it is a storm version of the deck)- Two good responses to this are either witness grapeshot back into your hand or attack the next turn with all your elves. Even if they get a chance to survive, you've likely played out a lethal amount of elves to attack with the next turn, with plenty of blockers as well. Stifle's more likely to be pointed at Regal Force, which is a pain, but no worse then having it countered. Which leads me to:

Some form of counterspell countering the Glimpse of Nature or other enabler-
Ah counterspells, bane of combos existence. No easy answer to this. Some builds are running 4x thoughtseize 2x chant to protect themselves when going off, but more adventurous builds throw chance to the wind. The thing to remember is that you can often restart the combo at a moments notice, combo off through a single counterspell, or just start beating down with elves. Unlike, say, infernal tutor getting forced after you LED, you still have a game plan after you've played out your hand: attack with elves.

Swords to plowshares, Lightning Bolt, Snuff Out, Mogg Fanatic- It's fairly hand dependent. Sometimes killing the right creature at the right time is brutal, sometimes it even wins the game with a pact. Sometimes there never was a right time to kill any given creature to really stop them from going off. Most of the time though, it's annoying more than anything. Most builds have 6-7 tutors in the deck, as well as a considerable amount of card drawing. The loss of a given creature isn't that bad. Maindecking Thoughtseize and Orim's chant really decrease the risks of this, but it's an issue for the deck. I don't think it's enough to make it not viable, and the deck isn't as reliant on a single creature (heritage druid) as it might seem. I personally don't like the chords of calling builds that focus on finding a devouring monster to win for this reason, but I don't think it throws the archtype out.

In general those "specific cards that totally obliterate your combo and quite nicely" are big problems. How much they impact the win percentages of a given matchup is too early to tell. There is no "standard decklist" yet, and no strong gauntlet data. But do give the deck a play, it's a lot of fun and it's hard to appreciate the complexity of the play decisions with out it.


@yawg07 I don't think that Chant necessarily opens you up to more wasteland problems. I mean, it doesn't have to be any more so than Grapeshot/Thoughtseize, and one savannah is really only going to be fetched with the chant in hand. That said, you also mentioned that you have more wastelands around you and at least a few magus of the moon. In that metagame, I think the more forests you play the better. I really like your build for that metagame. But in a more Combo/thresh metagame I think a 3 colored build for chant and thoughtseize has some potential.

general: wrap in vigor is officially a "cute" answer to pyroclasm, devastating dreams, deed, and engineered explosives

[Mental]

Ok guys I'm loving this deck. It's ridiculously fast, consistent, and it never fizzles since you can just smash the next turn. I want to share my list and try to cement some things down:

7 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bayou
2 Gaea's Cradle

For real, 17-18 lands is the way to go. In extended you can play 16, but with the additional LD in this format, and with the presence of much stronger control decks, mulliganing is much more devastating.

4 Heritage Druid
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Nettle Sentinel

The engine of the deck. I don't see how you can play less than 4 of each of these and be consistent.

3 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Wirewood Symbiote

Bread and butter elves. I like 6 producers of Green to speed up my kill, but I can see why someone would play Elves of the Deep Shadow instead.

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Summoner's Pact
2 Weird Harvest
1 Regal Force

The other half of the engine.

1 Grapeshot
1 Eternal Witness

This is the kill I would play. Grapeshot is always going to resolve because you can witness it, bounce witness with symbiote, and witness it again...so there's basically no way for them to get around it.

2 Viridian Zealot
2 Thoughtseize

I really want to fit 2 more Thoughtseize's in here, but I'm not sure what to cut.

I'm much more worried about Counterbalance than Counterspells. A single counterspell can be fought through, and you go off early enough that multiples probably won't be online (daze will, but you can play through that). The thing is, the control MU is actually pretty good: You can just go straight up aggro on them if they make you fizzle, and postboard they're really in a fix, not knowing if you're going to bring in protection or Jittes/Imperious Perfects.

About Chant: Why do we need it? We're about as fast as combo, so I'd think that 4 Thoughtseize + our speed is probably enough to have a decent MU. Plus, isn't Duress good enough? I know that Chant is versatile, but is it versatile enough to warrant a color splash AND not being able to stop them from playing Balance the next turn? I'd just go with Duress if I had to run 6 pieces of protection.

I can't see Predator Dragon being good, but hopefully that idea has been fully dropped by now, since it's really vulnerable and Grapeshot is basically superior in every way.

A question about Wirewood Hivemaster: the card does not seem very good. If you're going to abuse it, you need a sac outlet, which is frankly danger of cool things. Mirror Entity has other uses, sure, but is it really worth playing entity and hivemaster just to hope you draw them both? I think they're both unnecessary - once you have the number of elves in play to abuse either, you've probably won. Fecundicity, though, that's a great sideboard card.

Speaking of sideboards, what do peoples look like? Mine isn't cemented at all.
These seem to be the popular choices:
Umezawa's Jitte/Imperious Perfect/Elvish Champion - the anti control suit. They take it counters, and you bring in these.
Fecundicity - the anti removal suit. You bring in these when they bring in Pyroclasms, Devestating Dreams, etc.
Thoughtseize, Krosan Grip, Ancient Grudge (?) - Anti counterbalance and chalice.
I'm sure I'm missing a ton of stuff.

[yawg07]

@Cathal83: Sorry about that. I realized you were asking a legit question, I just was still pissed about debating with people over the damn altered cards/copyright bullshit.
I was out of line, my bad. This is a new deck, so questions are gonna come pouring in, I have to be ready for that.

@Wobbles: Yeah you're right, our list differences do come down to metagame.
On Wednesday, I'll be running the green version, and on Friday, a B/G version, I'll let you guys know how it does!
We usually have a 5 rounder on Wednesday and a 4 rounder on Friday.

This is the kill I would play. Grapeshot is always going to resolve because you can witness it, bounce witness with symbiote, and witness it again...so there's basically no way for them to get around it.

Not quite.
Keep in mind, you cannot bounce Witness with Symbiote, she is a human.
With Mirror Entity, yes of course, because it makes all your stuff elves, even Regal Force.

[Mental]

Oops, that's right. In that case it may be worth including a more solid kill, because Grapeshot/Witenss can be disrupted by just FoW + Stifle or 2 Stifles. Predator Dragon can kill any time which is nice, but a smart player will just keep untapped to deal with it. I still think with all the Ad Nauseum combo around, it's worth playing the 1 Grapeshot as it really improves your Ad Nauseam, Aggro, and even Counterbalance Thresh MUs. But against decks packing Stifle we may want something more concrete, like Wirewood Hivemaster + Mirror Entity, which would, I guess, also fix up the Grapeshot/Eternal Witness finish. Or is that too many things to fit into the decklist?
It does seem like it could possibly be overkill.