[Discussion] Ashenmoor Gouger?

[Aggro_zombies]

Why didn't that first place list run Counterbalance anywhere? His mana curve isn't too bad for it, though he could round things out a bit (21 lands is probably too much even in a more controlling aggro-control deck like this). He's got Mage and Top, and Counterbalance seems better against just about everything but aggro and super fast combo. Is it just that there's so much aggro over there that Counterbalance is too slow?

And yeah, Gouger is pretty terrible. If I was in red and had to play one of the Shadowmoor block CCC guys, I'd rather play Boggart Ram-Gang, because at least if it gets into a fight with a Goyf or something, it'll make the guy on the receiving end permanently smaller and thus easier to deal with.

[Clark Kant]

There's two seperate questions here.

If Gouger is a solid creature.

and if..

Gouger is a solid creature in that particular build.

I don't think Gouger is all that hot in that particular build. Because it plays lands that don't generate either red or black mana, and it has options like Serendib Efreet that can played instead, can be pitched to FoW, have evasion (very important) and can block.

I think Gouger is hot in sui variants not playing blue, and playing rituals and a mana base where just about every land generates either black or red mana (Barack Obama).

The best creature to compare it to is Nantuko Shade (any deck that can support shade can play Gouger). I personally think it's close, but Gouger is every so slighly superior to Shade. It doesn't require investment of every turn to pump it or protect it, leaving your mana free to do other things.

[TrialByFire]

Not to flame or anything, which means you are about to flame... so don't.

-PR

[raharu]

And yeah, Gouger is pretty terrible. If I was in red and had to play one of the Shadowmoor block CCC guys, I'd rather play Boggart Ram-Gang, because at least if it gets into a fight with a Goyf or something, it'll make the guy on the receiving end permanently smaller and thus easier to deal with.

Maybe... Considering that, in the sample decks, Gouger is just about >9000 times easier to cast (Triple red in a deck just splashing the color instead of black and red, where black is the deck's main color), and that Gouger is a point bigger on both ends, and the sample decks were overflowing with removal (4 'Bolt, 4 Terminate, 2 D. Edicts, 2 E.E. and a E. Capsule with a way to reuse them, and 4 Thoughtseize w/ 4 Hymns, and 4 Brainstorms and 4 Confidants and 4 Trinket mages to find them, in regards to the first list), it seems like Gouger stands head and shoulders above Ram-Gang. Wither and blocking are nice, but in all actuality, blocking and Wither aren't relevant because, if things go right, there isn't going to be anything to block or deal damage to.

EDIT: I'm pretty biased emotionally in regards to Gouger, though. I mean, he looks like a mutilated, singed penguin, and the flavor text is pretty depressing I somehow ended up feeling sorry for the poor cinder :3

[Aggro_zombies]

Maybe... Considering that, in the sample decks, Gouger is just about >9000 times easier to cast (Triple red in a deck just splashing the color instead of black and red, where black is the deck's main color), and that Gouger is a point bigger on both ends, and the sample decks were overflowing with removal (4 'Bolt, 4 Terminate, 2 D. Edicts, 2 E.E. and a E. Capsule with a way to reuse them, and 4 Thoughtseize w/ 4 Hymns, and 4 Brainstorms and 4 Confidants and 4 Trinket mages to find them, in regards to the first list), it seems like Gouger stands head and shoulders above Ram-Gang. Wither and blocking are nice, but in all actuality, blocking and Wither aren't relevant because, if things go right, there isn't going to be anything to block or deal damage to.

EDIT: I'm pretty biased emotionally in regards to Gouger, though. I mean, he looks like a mutilated, singed penguin, and the flavor text is pretty depressing I somehow ended up feeling sorry for the poor cinder :3

I noticed that. It was just a hypothetical "If I had to run one of these creatures or get shot fifteen times in the head at point-blank range by angry terrorists..." kind of thing. I'd never run any of the CCC guys in a deck like this.

Although I guess even that one / Faerie guy might have been better than Gouger because of evasion. But really, the difference is between eating dog shit and eating cat shit.

[raharu]

Wasp Lancer isn't better, actually. An ass of two is too much of a detractor in , considering that, again, the boat-loads of removal make evasion a moot point.

At any rate, I presume it's irrelevant since we have juxtapose positions on Gouger (I think it's passable and somewhat like it, you think it's utter ass).

[Forbiddian]

Weirder than no Tendrils MD is 4x Dark Confidant in the SB.


EDIT: About Gouger, I think it's mainly a metagame choice like other people alluded to. Executioner's Capsule is a big deal and is a go-to method of removal in Japan. This pretty much eliminates non-black creatures from contention (like Serendib Efreet, which is a horrible suggestion, only net two power in a race and he doesn't even run FoW).

The only other close suggestion is Hypnotic Specter, but with only two toughness it's vulnerable to bolt-level removal. The one deck runs Bob, but the other deck runs only threat creatures resistant to bolt and immune to Executioner's. I don't know how prevalent bolt is, but the deck was clearly designed around the advantage that 4+ toughness would give.

Sporting 6+ creature removal spells and Tormod's Crypt for enemy Goyfs makes a 4/4 just about the largest creature around. The fact that he can't block is a pretty serious drawback for most decks, but these decks run 4 bolts, 4 terminate, executioner's capsule, 2 magma jet/edict, and 4x Hymn and 4x Thoughtseize. Getting creature advantage seems really easy for this deck and racing 4 power seems like a tall order to fill against that removal suite.


I really like this deck. Wish they could have thought of a more gimicky name, though. Next History maybe lost in translation.

[raharu]

Weirder than no Tendrils MD is 4x Dark Confidant in the SB.


EDIT: About Gouger, I think it's mainly a metagame choice like other people alluded to. Executioner's Capsule is a big deal and is a go-to method of removal in Japan. This pretty much eliminates non-black creatures from contention (like Serendib Efreet, which is a horrible suggestion, only net two power in a race and he doesn't even run FoW).

The only other close suggestion is Hypnotic Specter, but with only two toughness it's vulnerable to bolt-level removal. The one deck runs Bob, but the other deck runs only threat creatures resistant to bolt and immune to Executioner's. I don't know how prevalent bolt is, but the deck was clearly designed around the advantage that 4+ toughness would give.

Sporting 6+ creature removal spells and Tormod's Crypt for enemy Goyfs makes a 4/4 just about the largest creature around. The fact that he can't block is a pretty serious drawback for most decks, but these decks run 4 bolts, 4 terminate, executioner's capsule, 2 magma jet/edict, and 4x Hymn and 4x Thoughtseize. Getting creature advantage seems really easy for this deck and racing 4 power seems like a tall order to fill against that removal suite.


I really like this deck. Wish they could have thought of a more gimicky name, though. Next History maybe lost in translation.

I'm not so sure that, in a deck with more creatures and a bit less removal, that Gouger is the complete and utter shit that everyone immediately makes it out to be. In all honesty, your only parameter to make sure it's not shit is to keep Tarmogoyf off the table, which is essentially a parameter to even get to play Magic: the Gathering at this point in time. Blocking isn't all that important if you run other creatures to fill that role, and a 4/4 races rather well, even in the legacy metagame of 'Goyfs and whatnot. The only creatures you'll see with any frequency that are large enough to be a problem are 'Goyfs, Tombstalkers, and the occasional Grunt, and considering that if you're in BBB, you should run Tombstalkers of your own, and 'Goyf and Grunt control are mandatory parameters in current deck design, so saying that Gouger is terrible because it can't block is more an impulsive conclusion instead of a thought out assertion.

At any rate, +1 to Forbiddan's thoughts on Gouger, with a bit of extension.

[Hanni]

The only creatures you'll see with any frequency that are large enough to be a problem are 'Goyfs, Tombstalkers, and the occasional Grunt

And Phyrexian Dreadnought.

[raharu]

And Phyrexian Dreadnought.

True, 'Nought is a problem, but PD is deck specific, and also dies to most removal that handles Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker.

[Captain Hammer]

Goyf>Gouger
Tombstalker>Gouger

But if you're playing a deck that's already running 4 Goyf and 4 Tombstalker (the two best creatures in the format), a deck that is playings lots of ways to take out opposing Goyfs, and are looking for an additional threat... Gouger is a solid choice for the third creature slot.

Obviously, I like him more than Nantuko Shade.

[Mordel]

The Japanese have odd practices besides just unique ways of assessing cards...like an affinity for adding an array of singleton cards and somehow drawing into them more often than I draw into cards that have three copies in my deck...I noticed this when a Japanese mtg posse was at a ptq.

I think people are looking at the more complicated possibilities and are missing the reason that gouger probably got the nod in those decks: a 4/4 that can't get killed by 98% of black removal and always costs three mana.
Tombstalker is great and all, but sometimes it can be impeded by crypts, grunts and whatever else, while a gouger is a more or less no-nonsense 4/4 for three (along with any virtues that go along with being black and having a cc of three) .

Sure, gouger is an unspectacular choice, but it's also a logical one.

Sometimes I do think the Japanese just pick cards to confound non-Japanese players...then again, maybe the Japanese metagame has a bunch of crazy decks that I haven't seen or something.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Ancient Japanese secret to confuse the white folk.

[Mordel]

That and the Japanese dude I have played against are innately lucky. I don't understand how it works at all. I think they sprinkle some sort of magic luck dust in their sleeves or something to make the singletons show up. I played this dude once way back in, like, Kamigawa/Rav type two and he annihilated me with this fucked up legend homebrew control turbo batchafuck deck and after we were talking and I asked if I could look at his deck since we likely wouldn't get paired again and I saw most of it anyway.

I look at it and it has singletons of almost every single fucking thing excluding Yosei, Keiga and Kokusho. He had two greater goods, one jitte and other baffling stuff. Somehow he managed to draw the Jitte and other seemingly random singletons with great regularity. I shuffled the bejesus out of his deck too because I am a jerk that way at tournies.

Japanese luck prowess.

[android]

I have a very similar build with a couple Grixis Charms in place of a Lightning Bolt and a Terminate and a few other sub-par replacements due to my limited collection (no Seas). I also have a Fulminator Mage crammed in there for occasional Volrath's Stronghold recursion.

I have to agree with everyone who's mentioned that the strength of this deck is in it's removal suite and targeted discard. It has no trouble eliminating blockers which is better than blocking with your dudes. Between the Gouger and Tombstalker, you have them on a pretty short clock. They can't just ignore the early Confidants which draw their early removal because this leaves them open to your beaters. I've flipped over a few Tombstalkers though and between fetchs and Thoughtseize pain, you can put yourself right into burn range a little too easily.

Also, combo does not fair well to Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach and Duress last time I checked.

I would say it's a pretty strong archetype with a fragile manabase.

[Apex]

I've heard this from my friend that went to Worlds last year. He spoke to the Japanese players and the majority didn't like legacy as an event because it was really hard for them to get ahold of dual lands in Japan (comparatively to NA), and most of them will not shell out major money for a deck that they will probably only play for 5 rounds total in their entire life.

So that could be a major strike against splashing for Goyfs and butchering their manabase (maybe the player just couldn't get ahold of green duals or something). Because seriously, the upsides of a Gouger compared to a Goyf are almost non-existent.

Well, at least Japanese players try new stuff and win with it, so I guess it's not so bad.

[Captain Hammer]

I'm not sure how relevent it is to this particular deck. Next History runs more than the average number of duals and fetchlands than many goyf based decks.

I do think that they opted to play Ashenmoor Gouger for a reason other than, we couldn't afford the alternatives.

My guess is that they have a rather different approach to deck building in general. They don't play many four ofs in most of their decks, usually opting for diversity and flexibility over consistency. Kind of like their TV shows. They're certainly far less formulaic than they are over here.

[Fossil4182]

I think Ashenmoor Gouger is decent for what it is. Its a 3cc 4/4 that has a hybrid mana cost making it easy to cast in a B/R/u deck. Compared to other beaters in the same cost range and with a bigger/equally powered body, the drawbacks attached are no where near the level of "can't block." its a cheap beater with a bigger body than it should for its casting cost with a minimal drawback.

Yes, there are other cards that are far better. Goyf and the bunch of top tier creatures will beat the living heck out of it, but I think the deck just needed a decent size beater to put some creature pressure on. The deck has answers to Goyf and the lot in the form of Terminate, Edict and Executioner's Capsule. (Capsule can also be recurred if necessary via Ruins...though the process is expensive) All of which answer the rest of top creatures out there except Tombstalker. However, Terminate and Edict deal with Tombstalker.

Do I think Ashenmoor Gouger will break open a new deck archetype? No. However did someone find a deck that the card works in? I think two top 8 finishes in a plus 50 person event can't be dismissed that easily. It would be nice if someone who played against the deck or pilots could offer some insight into the selection. I also think that as the author of the thread noted, that there are people who think differently when they design decks. This may just be a prime example of how different perspectives can make what would be obsolete cards worth while in a specific deck.

I also think as the recent article from SCG notes, that the package of cards involving Stifle, Trickbind (to a lesser extent), Wasteland, Force of Will, Daze, and Brainstorm comprise the core template for a lot of the decks that most people believe to make up the "meta" of Legacy's top tier decks. It also becomes the tendency players to look at decks that don't feature that package to been viewed as risky or "rouge" in some respects when compared to the top decks out there. To be fair, decks that feature those cards do tend to show up in Top 8's rather consistently. However, that doesn't mean the format won't shift again or that another core package of cards can't create dominate deck types.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Yeah, I'm guessing availability was a pretty big factor here. If it wasn't, then these players were probably incorrect in playing Gouger over Sea Drake, let alone Tarmogoyf.

[Sek'Kuar]

The big thing to me is that it can't block when needed. Otherwise, Why would Bitterblossom be so much better than that new goblin-producer from SoA? Even with the life loss, the abiity to block in a pinch is invaluable. I realize that there is a major difference between a 4/4 and a 1/1 flyer, but the logic to me remains the same. Ashenmoor Gouger is a poor card choice because of the inability to block. Also, if you cant attack because of an opposing 'goyf, 'stalker, whatever, you now have a dead card on the field. Creature disadvantage is NEVER a good thing.