All right thanks. I thought he meant all in one turn but I guess he means in progressing turns, and in that case that would make sense.
A bit of clarification here. While I cannot attest to the situation most recently described, I can describe mine.
I had three Ichorids and one Narcomoeba in play. My opponent had countered my PImp, so was at eighteen life, and I didn't want to chance another turn. Plus the fact that I would have to remove an Ichorid to attack with two the next turn. This was all from slow dredging.
I had a Breakthrough in hand, one Bridge in play, and two Narcomoebas still in the deck, so a resolved Breakthrough was a win. Looking directly at my opponent, I pushed two Ichorids and the Narco into the yard and announced "Flashback Dread Return? Trigger Bridges?" He paused while I resolved the triggers and glanced at his three-card hand. He then faux-casually asked "Targetting?" At this point I was reading him on out-thinking himself. When I said Witness, I knew I was right, since I had an LED and DA in the 'yard. He had no idea I had been sandbagging the Breakthrough, which I correctly assumed.
It's not a particularly desirable play, nor is assuming an unknown opponent, (which he was) is an idiot (though when you know they are......) usually correct. Winning now is always the best play with this deck if available though.
~ Team Unicorn MottoOriginally Posted by MacGruber
Yes, that's why I mentioned twice that that kind of play relies on an oversight on your opponent's side, which is not something you should assume will be the case.
Actually, to explain my situation once again (and more thoroughly) to rid of the confusion:
I had a Narcomoeba in play along with 2 Zombies. I actually had four bridges in my Graveyard. I returned Ichorid during my Upkeep, and dredged six with Troll. Seeing my attacks weren't lethal and I wanted a quick kill, I Dread Returned targetting Witness, and he was thinking about countering but didn't because he saw the FKZ in my yard and I wasn't targetting it. This nailed me 8 Zombies, and cost me 1. Story now: 9 Zombies and an Eternal Witness. I returned Unmask, pitching Golgari Thug, and taking a Force of Will (using the FoW would mean his hand would be empty, which would nail me two cards so he opted to just lose one, which of course, is irrelevant). I Dread Returned, sacrificing Witness and two zombies, nailing me four zombie tokens (11 tokens) and returning FKZ to swing. Two zombies were blocked I believe. So lethal swing.
All of this requires no mana. Note that I didn't have any therapies (yes, dredge four bridges and hit no therapies) because that would've been a lot easier.
Obviously, with only one Dread Return, you cannot win that same turn.
Conclusion: This is rare, highly far fetched play that almost never happens, since it's rare and far fetched. It's still awesome as f*ck though.
Almost as cool as being at 5 live, staring down a Tombstalker and 6/7 Goyf with two zombie tokens. Returning Ichorid, Dread Returning for Stinkweed motherf*cking Imp, killing the Tombstalker with Deathtouch and swing for lethal the next turn.
Or hardcast Thug to sac it to Therapy, put Moeba on top of your library and Dredging it two seconds later to put it into play. Or tapping a land to play Revelation, sac the land, Dread Return Eternal Witness to get a land back to Flashback Ray fo Revelation number 2, knocking out two Propaghanda's and swing :)
God I love this deck.
This message has been deleted by Nightmare. Reason: Boo fucking hoo
This is a good example of the optimization of the card use of this deck, which demonstrates that each card has a purpose beyond of having dredge or not.
I can add DR a big GT to get through an annoying pernicious deed and my bridges extirpated!! Of course it was hard...
Another thing to add, when you have Dakmor Salvage in your grave, your opponent cannot respond to you dredging it with Crypt. He would have to preemtively Crypt in your upkeep, because Dredge is a replacement effect, not a triggered ability.
Still looking for FBB Lightning Bolts. German or Korean is preferred. PM me if you have them
Except by my math you die to a 6/7 goyf...How'ed you pull it off? Did they forget to attack with the goyf?Almost as cool as being at 5 live, staring down a Tombstalker and 6/7 Goyf with two zombie tokens. Returning Ichorid, Dread Returning for Stinkweed motherf*cking Imp, killing the Tombstalker with Deathtouch and swing for lethal the next turn.
Pce,
--DC
Schadenfreude is the most genuine kind of joy, since it doesn't include even a drop of envy.Why can't we just admit it?
I DR Stinkweed, losing Ichorid and two Zombie tokens, but the sacrifice gave me three or four new zombie tokens. He swings with both Goyf and Tombstalker, I block Tombstalker with Imp and Goyf with a Zombie token.
Next Turn I return Ichorids, swing with the zombies and Ichorids. In a different scenario he doesn't attack with Tombstalker because he dies to Stinkweed Imp. In which case I overwhelm him within two turns (because Snuff Out doesn't do anything).
This message has been deleted by Nightmare. Reason: Boo fucking hoo
Damn, I'm retarded...This is why I shouldn't do math.
Pce,
--DC
Schadenfreude is the most genuine kind of joy, since it doesn't include even a drop of envy.Why can't we just admit it?
Parcher: I know you played Ichorid this weekend at TMLO4... How did things work out?
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
Badly. Losing to MUC is about as bad as things can go for Ichorid. So....yeah.
At least Nick (MUC player) was about as nice as one can be without laughing about how poorly his worst possible match-up went for me. It was an enjoyable beating.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
yeah, Nick (Kadaj here in the source) is a nice guy to play against.
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
i was just wondering...is it basically standard to not play akroma/hellkite overlord/beefy guy anymore? i don't really see the deck being consistant enough with only 2 dredge returns and a FKZ and cephalid sage/witness
also, unmask is very nice vintage tech but since we almost always win game 1, it seems like its unnecessary and left as a board card at best
Beefy guys are rarely used anymore as we've turned to a more controlling aspect with the list. Unmask isn't "vintage tech". It's for against a more controlling metagame. 6x Discard spells help get through hate. Also, most lists now run 3x Dread Returns since we now play Eternal Witness. Some people still do and it's not entirely wrong, it's simply not optimal.
Some people do choose to leave Unmask in their sideboard. It all depends on your metagame. If you see a lot of FoW's and other counters in your metagame, it's probably wise to maindeck it. If not, feel free to leave it in your board.
Pce,
--DC
Schadenfreude is the most genuine kind of joy, since it doesn't include even a drop of envy.Why can't we just admit it?
Speaking of Fat Men, which Fat Man is best, if any? Red Akroma? Simic Sky Swallower? Angel of Vindicate? Tree-man of Almost Vindicate Twice? I've been leaning towards SSS, but I wanted to know what you guys were thinking.
i think these are the fatties to be put into consideration, obviously some being more viable than others maindeck:
red akroma
white akroma
hellkite overlord
simic sky swallower
angel of despair
woodfall primus
as far as the hasters go, i like hellkite over white akroma because it's very likely that your opponent will do 4 damage to themselves, which puts them on a one-turn clock after you DR hellkite.
for the removal creatures, i prefer primus over angel because he can potentially net you 8 tokens while getting rid of some annoying permanents.
i haven't really tested around with the protection creatures yet, but i think it's a toss up. even though red akroma can deal with what i think is the best removal spell in the format (swords to plowshares) and deal with bounce, i would still pick simic. simic is harder to deal with because your opponent HAS to have a creature that flies and is bigger.
right now, i'm trying out this build
CREATURES
4x Golgari Grave Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
2x Golgari Thug
4x Narcomeoba
4x Ichorid
4x Putrid Imp
1x Hellkite Overlord
1x Cephalid Sage
1x Flame-Kin Zealot
1x Woodfall Primus
SPELLS
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Dread Return
4x Bridge from Below
4x Breakthrough
3x Deep Analysis
MANA SOURCES
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Cephalid Coliseum
4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
At first i thought that they were necesary as 3rd win condition or some kind of protection. Afterwards i realized that none is necesary at least in main deck. The only one i consider in SB is ancestor's chosen for goblins and fanatic sligh / burn match ups were our bridges are easily removed. Ancestor's give us at least 10-15 lifes and a 4/4 first strike which is pretty enough for the ichorid beatdown.
QFT. Seriously. This is good. Also, Ad Nauseam lists are becoming capable of goldfishing us, and this gives you a good chance of getting out of Tendrils range.
Pce,
--DC
Schadenfreude is the most genuine kind of joy, since it doesn't include even a drop of envy.Why can't we just admit it?
Nauseam decks play IGG and without graveyard hate, there's nothing you can do to not let them still kill you with a huge Tendrils. Even without IGG, Nauseam will be able to contribute to make the number of Tendrils on the stack above 15 easily.
Onto the question: how many times can you bring Ancestor's Chosen back to gain 15+ life but can't bring FZK or whatever for lethal damage?
Keep moon-walking.
when you dredge and hit no bridges, lol
Against nauseam decks i would not side ancestor's for the life winning, this is a bad matchup and we have to beat them as soon as possible. Probably i would reserve ancestor's for decks that can easily remove your bridges, ie goblins, sligh (spark elemental and krldon marauders are awful) or sakura decks (in a minor fashion).
When your bridges are removed your only way to win is with ichorid beat down. With ancestor's in play you will find enough time to get the victory.
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