Has anyone considered adding Standstill to a sui Black deck?
I would only splash blue for this card, and maybe a few SB too.
The deck always gets off to a fast start and should have no problem with a negator or some other beatstick. Any threat you play is usually larger then anything they have in the early game, then drop a quickstandstill they have to break it or they die very fast. Seems like it would work pretty well in many instances.
Made day 2 in GP columbus
Because we do not play man-lands, we would be 100% dependant upon getting a Ritualed threat out turn 1, then drop a Standstill turn 2 to put any sort of pressure on the opponent. While this is awesome in theory, in practice it would simply not work often enough.Originally Posted by jakolhops
Standstill cannot be Ritualed out, which is a major drawback when compared to a turn 1 play of Swamp -> Dark Ritual -> Thoughtseize + Dark Confidant. Confidant will most likely draw me more cards than Standstill would, and it swings for 2.
Typically, we want to open with disruption, then drop a creature on turn 3-4, then hold on for dear life and hope they don't topdeck playable answers. Standstill doesn't fit into this gameplan, and even if I did Ritual out a turn 1 creature, I'd rather play turn 2-3 disruption, taking away any answers they may have drawn, as opposed to letting them just play their answers.
When you test this against Team America are you the one on both sides of the table? I have found that it is near impossible to do objective testing without a friend.
Is the card disadvantage via dark ritual in your Team America matchup overcome by casting hymn to tourach? Also, how do you feel about running only 3 tombstalkers? In this sort of deck I'm sure you would be able to occasionally cast one on your second turn, it seems to me that running a playset might be more beneficial than say, the fourth confidant. If you get a second stalker chances are you'll be able to play it but getting a second confidant in a deck with that high of a curve makes it a card that just sits in your hand. Not to mention the times when you just get to low health naturally via your own fetches and thoughtseize.
The problem I have seen with discard strategies is that it can not protect you from topdecks. If your opponent resolves his own tombstalker for example off of a topdeck, do you have to hope it's their only creature so you can hit it with edict or do you just lose? I would suggest adding a couple more removal spells over the two duresses since the game will come to a point where your opponent is in topdeck mode anyways and makes all of your excess discard spells dead. I think we can agree that duress is the worst of the discard spells in your list.
You convienently cut the part out of the quote where I asked people not to quote my deck. Anyways in response to your questions, No, I have yet to play on the opposing side of my deck. However now that a friend is thinking about playing it in an upcoming tournament, I think I will have to help them test the deck and play against it myself.
Yes, the card disadvantage of Dark Ritual is usually overcome by cards such as Hymn or Dark Confidant as well as Thoughtseize or Duress. Actually your suggestion of running a 4th Stalker verses a 4th Confidant is an interesting one. I happen to like that alot. Thanks for the advice, I think I will implement that :D
As for Duress, I do agree, it is the worst Discard in the deck. However I have found, that the 5th and 6th one cmc discard spell is actually crucial to this decks strategy. So I think for the moment I am going to keep that in the deck.
However thank you for your comments, I really appreciate them. On a side note however, could you please take my deck list out of your quote?
"He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night, and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever... He burns at the center of time and he can see the turn of the universe... and... he's wonderful."
Thoughtseize and Duress aren't card advantage, but game advantage. However, more often than not, if you choose well with either of those cards it can end up swinging card advantage your way.
I've generally just preferred Eva Green to this deck with the inclusion of Tarmogoyf and excellent board sweepers and artifact destruction. It's completely understandable that this deck is different and may as well have some different motives. I think in this deck maxing Tombstalkers is a great idea. The beats they provide is just ridiculous. It's a necessity with the lack of another great beater, such as Tarmogoyf.
My two cents.
I think you can play 3-4 Factory if your playing with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.
Holding on for dear life partthe the Deck was what i was talking about. Even though the 1st turn beater + standstill does temp me, i would think after ravaging their hand, and playing all my threats would be the perfect time to drop a standstill.
Perhaps though it is more cute then effective in most cases.
Made day 2 in GP columbus
yeah, I would say it is more "cute" than effective. As for running Mishra's Factory in addition to Yawgmoth's Tomb, I just do not think it is a good idea. the Tomb is too fragile, and the Factories are just as fragile, if not more so. We have enough threats, and enough draw cards to not really need the additional support. If you really need an additional card to fix your draws in addition to Dark Confidant, then I would suggest Sensei's Divining Top, as that synergizes really well with Dark Confidant, and gives you extra draw potential.
"He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night, and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever... He burns at the center of time and he can see the turn of the universe... and... he's wonderful."
Jesus! I leave this thread for a couple of months and it deteriorates to this? What kind of off the wall suggestions are these? And quips about land destructions spells in the 3cc range?
Ice Quake, Rain of Tears, etc. - Sinkhole is only acceptable because of its 2cc price. Anything above shouldn't even fall into considerations, budget or not. If you're on budget, atleast keep your spells effective. Remove the land destruction and run more discard.
Blue splash? Just for Standstill? We'd have to remake the deck completely. You can't just add that card, and not expect to reconsider every other card we're playing. On the other hand, this is exactly what the New and Developmental forum is for. If I had my guess you'll end up gravitating to some Ub Landstill variant, or something akin to Team America.
@ DalkonCledwin - Your deck (sorry to say) probably doesn't deserve discussion. I find nothing about it to be particularly noteworthy. That's not to say it will perform badly, the card choices are standard. But just including the most effective cards doesn't make for a well-tuned deck. I predict that your games will play just fine. But I don't see you winning tourneys with this either.
If you want to tune your deck, then give me more to remark on. Tell me: 1) Why a 2:2 split of edict and smother? 2) Why include 2x Jitte? And 3) Why include 2x Duress.
3) The last question you answered partially. And the answer was compelling enough for me. I agree that the extra bit of discard is needed, and the additional fact that it smoothes your curve is probably even more important a factor.
2) Why do you need Jitte? Tombstalker and Shade are just fine without. Bob could use it, Confidant's main purpose is to draw cards though. His ability to attack is icing on this cake. Specter seems the only real optimal equip. Too few excellent targets to equip to. I'd say either run removal, or run more creatures. Or just run Shriekmaw if you have balls and aren't worried about the possibility of extra life loss from Confidant.
1) When selecting your removal spells there is usually always a right answer. We don't have search or any way to sift for the correct card. So you're relying on chance to get you either that edict or that smother when it's the one you need. Test and find out which one is better, then run a full compliment of that.
The underlying question that you should be asking is what role you're assuming. Are you trying to play more aggro, or more control? If you're going the aggro route, cut confidant put in something like Negator and play Snuff Out over your current removal. If better control is what you're after (and I'd guess this is the case as you're actually running Confidant) then keep your removal count high and your card advantage up. Personally I'd play Dusk Urchin and Shriekmaw - and get rid of Jitte and probably Tombstalker (despite how good of a beater Tombstalker is).
Whew, that was alot about a deck that probably wasn't worth talking about :P
Maybe later I'll actually post about how cool Dark Meekstone is, like I had originally intended to.
did you even test my deck before complaining about it?
"He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night, and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever... He burns at the center of time and he can see the turn of the universe... and... he's wonderful."
Yea I am with Dalkon Cledwin on this one-Galroth, it is cool to criticize, even when the criticism is pretty harsh, but don't comment if you are going to make it sound like it's a waste of your time.
That being said, I would like to hear DC's response to some of the questions that you pose.
Currently I am personally very satisfied with the way the deck is built as the deck is currently performing very nicely, both for me and for a friend of mine. I presented it to you to see what you all thought of it, I was not expecting someone to post saying that the deck is beneath them and then have that same person expect me to respond to their questions about the deck.
Now in answer to some of these questions, the main issue is that previously the Jitte's and Duresses would have been a 4 of removal of something else (probably very easily either Snuff Out, or Rend Flesh). However on the advice of a friend who was helping me design the deck I modified the list to what it is now, so that it is better suited to take advantage of the Confidant while still having a bit of a beater. As such the removal has a 2:2 split between Edict and Smother. However there is one other removal spell in the deck, the Jitte itself. Not to mention that the thoughtseizes and hymns can act as preemptive removal after a sort as well if need be.
The Jitte is run mainly to counteract the life loss from Confidant when I flip a Tombstalker, however it also serves as a removal spell, as well as a pump spell for when I wish to beat to the face with any given creature.
And the Duress serves to smooth out the mana curve, as well as act as a 5th & 6th thoughtseize.
"He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night, and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever... He burns at the center of time and he can see the turn of the universe... and... he's wonderful."
@ Dalkon - I apologize if it came off as sounding harsh. Consider it as bluntly honest instead. Your deck is so close to what the standard for suicide black is that all of these choices have been discussed ad nauseum. Please list what you find unique, important and worthy of notice.
As to your question regarding testing your deck. The answer is no, I haven't tested your exact list. But I've tested your list with +1x Tombstalker, +1x Polluted Delta, +1x Duress, +1x Smother, -2x Jitte, & -2x Diabolic Edict. Basically lists so similar to yours that I feel more than competent to comment. Oh... and I used regular Swamps. Regardless of my experience with 'your' deck the questions and comments could stand alone and might be worth your time to consider. Believe me, I didn't post that string for just my entertainment.
I didn't realize that a list had to be unique, or important and worthy of notice to be posted on a forum in order to get advice on how to make it better or to ask for constructive criticism on whether it is a decent build or not... where does it list that in the forum rules?
There are significant differences between my list, and the list you tested, the most obvious difference is the inclusion of the Jitte. I would suggest before you criticize my deck further that you give it a few test runs to see what you think of the deck. Just because a list is similar to another, does not mean that it will play at all the same as another list.
As for your questions, I did answer them, have you taken the time to read my responses to them?
"He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night, and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever... He burns at the center of time and he can see the turn of the universe... and... he's wonderful."
This is, in case you haven't noticed, an online discussion forum. It exists so people can talk about their Legacy deck ideas, etc. It is also not a place where anyone gets to decide what not to discuss, not even the Mod staff (assuming the topic is neither vile nor illegal).
If you have nothing to add, then don't. But then, you post a ton of discussion-worthy ideas. Make up your mind. - Bardo
How does Mono-Black deal with Affinity, or is it such a non-issue that we don't even bother with it? The reason I ask, is because I played an affinity today, and even after I managed to extirpate 8 of their lands, they were still able to stabilize for the win.
"He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night, and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever... He burns at the center of time and he can see the turn of the universe... and... he's wonderful."
I don't know anything about anything, but perhaps killing their creatures rather than Extirpating their lands could result in better results.
SummenSaugen: well, I use Chaos Orb, Animate Artifact, and Dance of Many to make the table we're playing on my chaos orb token
SummenSaugen: then I flip it over and crush my opponent
well, I was doing that as well, but I only have so many removal spells to deal with creatures... and I wasn't drawing enough of them. I wanted to cut off their resources as much as I wanted to deal with their creatures.
"He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night, and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever... He burns at the center of time and he can see the turn of the universe... and... he's wonderful."
Minus howevermany Extirpate plus that many removal spells sure sounds like an idea.
SummenSaugen: well, I use Chaos Orb, Animate Artifact, and Dance of Many to make the table we're playing on my chaos orb token
SummenSaugen: then I flip it over and crush my opponent
Aside from the general reliability of the "LD into Extirpate COMBO POWAR" plan, you should have considered its specific reliability against a deck that plays Ęther Vial, Springleaf Drum, and free creatures.
Anyway, bring in 4 Needles against Affinity and think carefully before naming. Leyline of the Void or Engineered Plague can be brought in if you still have dead cards in the maindeck.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
how are either Leyline of the Void or Engineered Plague in any way good against Affinity? You do realize "Artifact Creature" is not a creature type, right, and as far as I knew they didn't have any graveyard recursion, the closest I can imagine is that you are suggesting the Leylines as a way to prevent damage from Disciple of the Vault???
Otherwise the deck I played didn't run Aether Vial at least not that I saw. It did run Springleaf Drum though, but didn't have it on the field until several turns after I extirpated its lands. Still it was able to get several creatures into play before I was able to extirpate its stuff.
On a side note, I don't actually run Pithing Needle in my sideboard, and really don't have room for the card in my sideboard....
"He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night, and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever... He burns at the center of time and he can see the turn of the universe... and... he's wonderful."
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