[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

[Nazgath]

So, I tested some against this with Mighty Quinn, and a weakness the deck has against control is that it has no way of smoothing draws consistently in the mid to late game. There's not enough cantrips to really chain into each other reliably ala old Hatfield Thresh.

Top is a possibility, but another thought I had was fitting in Portent.

This lead to a thought;

Slowtrip, yeah, but might the ability of Portent to insure that an opponent that's struggling to get a second land doesn't draw lands for another couple turns actually make it better than Ponder in this deck?

Has anyone thought of this angle, or does the situation just not come up often enough to warrant the wait on the draw aspect?

(Portent, unlike Ponder, can target opponents, so you can rearrange the top three of their library. If anyone's wondering what I'm talking about.)

I'm sorry, but that just sounds... Fucking awesome.

This could basically lead to motherfucking semi-Time Walks!

nitewolf9, could you post up the most recent "official" list you have so I can fire this baby up?

[nitewolf9]

The most recent "official" list is the one on the first page of this thread. The board was changed to -1 grip, -1 blast and +2 reanimate recently, and the change seems good.

I would not cut ponder for portent. Having what you need on the turn you play the cantrip is a lot better than randomly sometimes screwing your opponent's draws. However, portent could be added in addition to ponder, maybe as a 2 of. You could probably cut a sinkhole and maybe a snuff out to try that. Might be fine.

[Happy Gilmore]

Team America Was the AUS deck of choice at the team event of Worlds. They got to T2 but it came down to Dreadstill vs. TA. With Dreadstill winning.

Justin Cheung - Legacy - Australia
2008 Worlds National Team Top 4
Main Deck
60 cards
1 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
20 lands


4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
8 creatures

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Sinkhole
4 Snuff Out
4 Stifle
4 Thoughtseize
32 other spells Sideboard

1 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Diabolic Edict
1 Duress
2 Hydroblast
3 Krosan Grip
1 Threads of Disloyalty
4 Tormod's Crypt
15 sideboard cards

The most recent "official" list is the one on the first page of this thread. The board was changed to -1 grip, -1 blast and +2 reanimate recently, and the change seems good.

I would not cut ponder for portent. Having what you need on the turn you play the cantrip is a lot better than randomly sometimes screwing your opponent's draws. However, portent could be added in addition to ponder, maybe as a 2 of. You could probably cut a sinkhole and maybe a snuff out to try that. Might be fine.

In my testing a 2 of SDT was this much >>>>>>>>>>>>>> better than any other option. I went down to 3 sinkholes and 3 snuff outs. It does not slow the deck down, if anything you find threats faster.

[jazzykat]

This deck is truly excellent, however I do sometimes have trouble hitting BB on turn 2. I also have the luxury of playing in an underdeveloped meta where stifles will often be dead cards with no fetches to hit. Furthermore, wastelands will more often than not be colorless sources of mana.

I am looking for a way to modify the deck without losing its essence but to take advantage of my metagame by perhaps making it more consistent.

Perhaps removing the stifles and adding 2 or 3 tops and some smothers or hymns. Doing that may decrease the blue count too much so another idea I had was to add spell snares, wipe aways, or maybe misdirection...?

[socialite]

I am looking for a way to modify the deck without losing its essence but to take advantage of my metagame by perhaps making it more consistent.

Perhaps removing the stifles and adding 2 or 3 tops and some smothers or hymns. Doing that may decrease the blue count too much so another idea I had was to add spell snares, wipe aways, or maybe misdirection...?

No offense, but have you even taken the time to read this thread?

I suggest you do. It has been pointed out that what you suggest is in fact a terrible idea.

[nitewolf9]

This deck is truly excellent, however I do sometimes have trouble hitting BB on turn 2. I also have the luxury of playing in an underdeveloped meta where stifles will often be dead cards with no fetches to hit. Furthermore, wastelands will more often than not be colorless sources of mana.

I am looking for a way to modify the deck without losing its essence but to take advantage of my metagame by perhaps making it more consistent.

Perhaps removing the stifles and adding 2 or 3 tops and some smothers or hymns. Doing that may decrease the blue count too much so another idea I had was to add spell snares, wipe aways, or maybe misdirection...?

Honestly, if you are playing in an area with lots of jank, you should probably solve that by modifying the sideboard. Run more removal if it's a lot of aggro you're seeing, or some sort of hoser if there is some archetype that is giving you problems. I think between the board and the MD as it stands you should be able to deal with almost anything. What, in particular, are you having issues with?

[jazzykat]

@Ertai: Generally speaking you are correct, what I proposed are terrible ideas and I did read this thread that is why I qualified my statement with: "I also have the luxury of playing in an underdeveloped meta where stifles will often be dead cards with no fetches to hit. Furthermore, wastelands will more often than not be colorless sources of mana.". Did you read my post? Stifle is almost always a (near) dead card, what there is to stifle isn't worth my time. Stifle is there primarily to compliment the mana denial plan which doesn't work very well against basics.deck as my wastelands are also not optimal.

After testing the deck, my initial thoughts are that in a jank metagame I am better suited by playing a different deck as the major strenghth of this deck is it's vicious assault on competitive manabases, which as a side effect makes daze 10X better than it would otherwise be.

BTW: No offense, taken or meant.

@nitewolf9: I think more removal may be the way to go in the board, my concern is more that I have 8 cards that don't really effect them in a meaningful way. My biggest concern is getting BB on turn 2 and sometimes my second colored mana source on turn 2. This may very well be my fault as I don't mulligan well or aggressively enough but testing on MWS has proved somewhat frustrating.

[troopatroop]

If I were in an undeveloped metagame like that, I wouldn't play this deck. Staying in line with the LD strategy, Eva Green will have much fewer dead cards against opponents like that, with Wasteland being the only occasional one, and possibly Seal of Primordium if you don't drop it for Jitte or a metagame card straight up. It runs more creatures while keeping the two here. It sounds like a much better choice

[jazzykat]

If I were in an undeveloped metagame like that, I wouldn't play this deck. Staying in line with the LD strategy, Eva Green will have much fewer dead cards against opponents like that, with Wasteland being the only occasional one, and possibly Seal of Primordium if you don't drop it for Jitte or a metagame card straight up. It runs more creatures while keeping the two here. It sounds like a much better choice

Thanks. Your thoughts fall in line with my thoughts as well and I have used Eva Green before to good finishes in my meta.

[Bourgeoise]

In recent tournaments I have played in with this deck Reanimate has been one of the strongest cards out of the board for me nitewolf.

I've also gone down to 2 edicts so I can fit a fourth blue blast in my board since the majority of the decks I really want extra creature removal against seem to be the same decks that run red cards.

My current sideboard is:
2 edict
2 reanimate
2 BEB
2 hydroblast
3 krosan grip
4 crypt

I've been bringing in reanimate against decks that play only a few threats such as threshold in order to increase my own threat density. I know that it isn't an actual threat but with this deck the opponent has to answer your threats or they just lose. I have also been bringing it in for ichorid since it does more than snuff out in that matchup and have been able to randomly screw the ichorid player I was testing against out of their first dredger and then win the game because of it.

With that said I believe the card deserves a spot in the sideboard, but only as maybe a 2 of. The card has just straight up won me so many games recently that I urge you to at least test it out if you haven't already.

[socialite]

@Ertai: Generally speaking you are correct, what I proposed are terrible ideas and I did read this thread that is why I qualified my statement with: "I also have the luxury of playing in an underdeveloped meta where stifles will often be dead cards with no fetches to hit. Furthermore, wastelands will more often than not be colorless sources of mana.". Did you read my post? Stifle is almost always a (near) dead card, what there is to stifle isn't worth my time. Stifle is there primarily to compliment the mana denial plan which doesn't work very well against basics.deck as my wastelands are also not optimal.

After testing the deck, my initial thoughts are that in a jank metagame I am better suited by playing a different deck as the major strenghth of this deck is it's vicious assault on competitive manabases, which as a side effect makes daze 10X better than it would otherwise be.

BTW: No offense, taken or meant.

Yeah I noticed you had been posting in this thread since the start, as such I expected better from you. I did read your post and came to the same conclusion you seem to have come to; by removing all of those cards you might as well play a different deck such as Counter-Top Threshold.

I did not mean to come off as condescending its just that most of the things you asked and suggested such as Hymn have been beaten to death in this thread already.

Cheers. ~ Ertai

[Shriekmaw]

I think the current sideboard looks good, but I would never go without at least 3 engineered plague in the board since there is a lot of tribal decks floating around recently.

The big ones have been goblins and elves, but I've also seen faeries and merfolk in large events recently. These matchups are very bad for the deck without plague which is why I think its very necessary.

My board:

2 Reanimate
2 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Engineered Plague

[Ch@os]

Team America Was the AUS deck of choice at the team event of Worlds. They got to T2 but it came down to Dreadstill vs. TA. With Dreadstill winning.

Justin Cheung - Legacy - Australia
2008 Worlds National Team Top 4
Main Deck
60 cards
1 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
20 lands

So it seems that nobody plays Bloodmoon, or moon effecs are just to slow to handle this deck.

[Omega]

I know some guys played it in our local area and got totally "raped" with TA because of the non basic land hate that is rampant.

The deck cant perform well in such meta.

Luckily for them, Moon effect seem to be "dead" from huge meta

Robert

[nitewolf9]

2 Reanimate
2 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Engineered Plague

If you are expecting a ton of tribal decks, maybe this would be ok. But this deck already has a favorable goblins matchup, and blasts from the board seem to be enough to push it further. Elves and merfolk might be a legitimate problem, but do enough people play those decks to really warrant 4 sideboard slots? I'm not so sure. I think I'd rather play more blasts because they actually help against decks like sligh and dragon stompy (although not many people are playing this deck anymore, for good reason). They just seem more versatile in general as red can be a problem (decks that are more aggressive on the life total than you; this usually means red is in the equation). Also, edict is very good. There are tons more aggro-control decks being played than tribal decks.

The only time moon effects are a huge issue is in the context of dragon stompy, because they can actually cast it from turn 1. Against any other deck post-board blasts are more effective, and so is keeping them off of 3 mana for long enough to put pressure on them. Moon effects are still a threat, but they are much more manageable.

[Shriekmaw]

If you are expecting a ton of tribal decks, maybe this would be ok. But this deck already has a favorable goblins matchup, and blasts from the board seem to be enough to push it further. Elves and merfolk might be a legitimate problem, but do enough people play those decks to really warrant 4 sideboard slots? I'm not so sure. I think I'd rather play more blasts because they actually help against decks like sligh and dragon stompy (although not many people are playing this deck anymore, for good reason). They just seem more versatile in general as red can be a problem (decks that are more aggressive on the life total than you; this usually means red is in the equation). Also, edict is very good. There are tons more aggro-control decks being played than tribal decks.

The only time moon effects are a huge issue is in the context of dragon stompy, because they can actually cast it from turn 1. Against any other deck post-board blasts are more effective, and so is keeping them off of 3 mana for long enough to put pressure on them. Moon effects are still a threat, but they are much more manageable.

I think it totally depends on the current field you expect to play against. I think your initial board is very good. I was just going by what I've seen lately in the larger events in Legacy in the Northeast.

Is it worth it at all to include a basic island in the deck? I never ran into the problem of non-basics with canadian threshold, but I did have access to lightning bolt for magus of the moon which is key in the matchups where you are facing that little red bastard.

I never faced this deck when I played goblins, but I'm pretty confidant in goblins when it comes to threshold variants. I found a lot of times that my opponents 4 blasts are not enough to beat goblins when they lack board sweepers. Just my quick thought with this matchup.

[nitewolf9]

This deck plays more like eva green does against goblins. Their best shot is to land an early aether vial. Even so, goblins really wants land. Stifle is also incredible against them. We tested the matchup quite a bit and I think Dave quit because he was tired of being kicked around. Also, between me and Eric, I think we've played against goblins about 5 times in large tournament play, and I don't think we've ever dropped a match to them. I lost once to Jesse Hatfield at a local tournament, but that was solely due to port and wasteland in game 3, which can happen. I don't think it's a cake walk, but I also don't think you need much help.

[Enigma]

Non-substantive one-lines are spam. Please see our forum-specific posting rules, which explain the DTB forum has the most stringent of posting requirements on this site. - Bardo

[Illissius]

What about, instead of a sideboard of specific utility cards, something like this:

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Vision Charm
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top (less if you have any maindeck)
2 Krosan Grip (more if room)

Against combo, -Snuff -Daze +Countertop. Against Goyf Sligh and Burn, -Thoughtseize -Snuff -Sinkhole +Charmnought +Countertop. Against Goblins, -Things +Charmnought. Against MUC and such, -Snuff -something (Sinkhole? Daze?) +Countertop. Against Aggro Loam, -Daze -Sinkhole -Thoughtseize? +Charmnought +Countertop. (Maybe just the Dreadnoughts here. No threes for Counterbalance kind of sucks. Still hits Loam, Wish, Dreams, Goyf, though.)

Obviously it's not perfect -- no Blasts against Moons, Crypts against Ichorid, or Edicts against Dreadstill and such. But you gain two widely applicable packages which are good at blowing entire swaths of the metagame out of the water. Bonus: They aren't going to have Grips in after game one. (And yeah, Countertop isn't quite in character for the deck. But sometimes the best sideboard plan is a new plan. And whatever else, it's immensely powerful and going to be way stronger than what comes out.)

[Shriekmaw]

The problem with that board is that it doesn't address any specific matchups. I would not want top/countebalance combo anywhere in this deck, because it goes against the whole tempo advantage.

The sideboard should be there to address weaknesses that the deck has and I don't believe this board does that. It would be best not to try to get cute with the board, the goal is to improve weak matchups.