Bardo mentioned that I should repost this thread without the protective attitude towards it. So I'm going to do just that and simply ignore any post that even resembles a flame instead of letting it get to me.
So if you want to have a discussion about something on the list, please post constructively and I promise to do the same.
First, the list...
4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
4/3 Doran, the Siege Tower
3/4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Snuff Out
4 Vindicate
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Before you ask, the established decks forum is for decks that either have tournament showings, or have been worked on and tested for a long period of time, and thus have a completely 100% finalized list.
I've been playing developing testing and tweakign this deck for a long time now, and this is a 100% complete well tested list. And I had won local tournaments with slight variations on this same list, including one just yesterday.
It's due to that latter category that a lot of the decks here are allowed to stay. The same reason that decks like the Mightly Quinn, Epic Elves and the other decks here were allowed to stay.
And also before you ask, yes I know that Doran is legendary. And yes, I personally run the full playset, though I posted it on the list as a 4/3 so you don't have to feel obligated to if you don't want to. And no, I don't mind that I have to occasionally keep a Doran in my hand when I already have one on the board. Because I wouldn't want to play the second Doran anyways. One should usually not over extend themselves and open themselves to a Disk or Deed or Wrath or Damnation effect like that.
A breif history of what prompted me to put together this deck. I've been getting sick of Eva Green having to play weak creatures like Shade and weak cards like Seal of Cleansing for a while now. Especially when monsters like Doran and land destroying bombs like Vindicate were just one color over.
When playing Eva Green, I felt like I was driving a Lambroguini stuck with a part or two from an old Chevy under the hood (parts like Shade and Seal).
I wanted all of my threats to be scary big, well out of burn and blocker range and my land destruction component to be simulatously more extensive and more versatile at the same time.
Splashing white and making room for Doran and Vindicate allowed me to do just that.
I've messing around with variations on this for what feels like an eternity now but settled on the absolute final list a week ago and have been really impressed with the overall decks performance so far. I mean crazy impressed.
Ritual has seriously never let me know one match all week, letting me lay down Tombstalkers, play first turn Hyppes, Sinkholes on the play, chain together Thoughtseizes with Reanimates, Hymns with Thoughseiges, Sinkholes with Dorans on turn three and all sorts of other broken nonsense.
Doran is a bomb, just as big or bigger than goyf most of the time, making your own goyf bigger as well, being safe from most black removal spells and essentially being a 3cc Tombstalker that isn't reliant on the graveyard in the least.
Vindicate is a bomb, blowing up the lands that made it past Wasteland and Sinkhole during round one, eating up creatures that Thoughtseize and Snuff Out missed round one, and taking crap like Chalice at 2 out back and shooting it in the forehead.
So does that mean you are unwilling to listen to people who may or may not suggest what would amount to their opinions on how to improve the list? Cause if you are not willing to listen to their suggestions on how to improve the list because you feel that the deck is in its finalized form, then your defensive attitude about this deck has not really changed from the last time you posted this deck whatsoever.Originally Posted by Captain Hammer
Yet over extending does and can happen quite often in suicide decks.
You mean seal of primordium? And yeah, I don't think splashing a color just to improve the deck is necessarily the best call, I mean that is essentially the main problem I have with Team America... Though you get around that by playing 3 swamps (I really think that should be 1 land of each of the colors in this deck).
you wanted your threats out of burn range, and yet you run Hypnotic specter? How does that work? And shade can definitely be out of burn range if you play it properly.
"He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night, and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever... He burns at the center of time and he can see the turn of the universe... and... he's wonderful."
If you can offer a constructive reply with sound reasoning to back up the reason for the suggestion, of course I'm going to consider or try it. I'm just going to ignore replies that are inflammatory and clearly not thought out or constructive instead of participating in a flame war.
Shade is too mana intensive. A late game card in an early game deck. And outclassed these days compared to the alternatives. So yes, I don't think it's very good.
I'm honestly not happy with Hyppie either. But it flies over all the Goyfs running around, and with the rise in blue decks and StPs, I don't mind having it eat a Swords so one of my better threats stick around. And if Hyppie does stick around, it will screw up any deck that runs Force of Will.
I recommend Reanimate and Swords in it's place if that fits your meta better. Hippe is a great all around card. But if your meta is filled with bigger creatures than yours, StP is the better choice. If it's filled with smaller creatures than yours, Reanimate is a great alternative for when your guys get double blocked or killed, or you make them discard their creature, or snuff it out and such.
unfortunately your entire argument for hippie being run as opposed to another threat, is basically null and void, due to conflux and the card known as Path to Exile. Path to Exile is Swords #'s 5 to 8. Essentially meaning that even if they do nuke a hippy with either a sword or path, they have 7 more to use on your other threats.
That is why I prefer running creatures that are immune to cards from white that target. But alas, you think those cards are too mana intensive or are useless because they don't fly?
"He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night, and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever... He burns at the center of time and he can see the turn of the universe... and... he's wonderful."
How about you wait until Path to Exile actually gets printed before suggesting that people alter decklists and strategies anticipating that Path of Exile is going to dominate the format? Many people aren't even convinced that it'll see play.
Umm, didn't you just say the previous post that I should be playing Nantuko Shade? ... You do know that Shade isn't pro white right. Did you just mix up Shade with Stillmoon Caviliear?
P.S: Yes, I would much rather play a Hippie to draw out the Swords, than play a Stillmoon Cavilier that forces my opponents to save the Swords for far better threats like Goyf, Doran and Tombstalker and is a slow ass win condition anyways.
personally in my deck, which is actually a Suicide Black deck (mono color) I run both Shade and Stromgald Crusader. Shade does not have Protection from White, you are quite correct. However Stromgald Crusader does. Additionally Stromgald Crusader can gain the ability to fly.Umm, didn't you just say the previous post that I should be playing Nantuko Shade? ... You do know that Shade isn't pro white right. Did you just mix up Shade with Stillmoon Caviliear?
And how about you wait until Path to Exile actually gets printed before suggesting that people alter decklists and strategies anticipating that it's going to dominate the format?
P.S: Yes, I would much rather play a Hippie to draw out the Swords, than play a Stillmoon Cavilier that forces my opponents to save the Swords for far better threats like Goyf, Doran and Tombstalker and is a slow ass win condition anyways.
Additionally Stillmoon Cavelier is too slow in my opinion for a Suicide deck, due to it coming out turn 3 or off of a dark ritual. The only card I feel that Suicide Decks should be running at this point that come into play turn 3 or off of a ritual is either Hyppie or the new Nyxafid or whatever its fracking name is (I provided its details in the suicide black thread if you want to know more about it).
How about I not wait. I can already tell that the card is going to be run in UGw Thresh as a sideboard card, and in all Landstill and Cunning Still decks that run white whatsoever as a main deck option. The question is in what quantity. I can also see it being run in the Mighty Quinn as well, again as a main deck option.
The question is not will Path to Exile be run, it is how many of them will be run in any given deck. It most certainly will be run to some extent.
"He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night, and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever... He burns at the center of time and he can see the turn of the universe... and... he's wonderful."
I think it was pretty clear in that quote how many copies of Path to Exile you think people will be packing maindeck.
I'm just saying, lets wait to see what kind of impact if any Path to Exile has before altering decklists. It's fine to discuss what impact it could theoretically have. I too think Path will have an impact somewhat. But I'm not going to change decklists based strictly on speculation about what might happen someday in the future.
That's interesting but not really relevent here. Hippie is taking up a disruption slot in the deck. The threat slots are already filled with Goyf, Tombstalker and Doran.
Stromgald is not disruption, it's a threat. And I see no reason to waste a threat slot on a guy who swings for 2, or 3 only if you pump two mana into it, when you have access to 12 guys who swing for 5 each.
No, that quote emphasized the fact that for all intents and purposes the Path is essentially the same card as Swords to plowshares (just with a different drawback than swords has). As such, it is going to be considered as swords #'s 5 to 8 when people are deciding how many of them they want to put into their deck, not necessarily that they will be included in a given deck as swords 5 to 8, just that people will be considering them as effectively swords numbers 5 to 8, as they can't be considered anything else, at least not in Legacy.
Unfortunately Swords to Plowshares as well as Oblivion Ring, is already run in enough decks to warrant some sort of countermeasures be taken to protect a given deck against them. In my case I have choosen to run cards with Protection from white. In your case you are choosing to run a card that for all intents of purposes is a weaker threat. The problem with your particular strategy, is I highly doubt that a swords player will bother to hit Hypnotic Specter with a swords to plowshares, unless they absolutely need to protect their hand from it. The card just isn't a big enough threat to warrant the removal.
The fact that you consider hippie to be a disruption peice, shows that you miscategorize Hippie. Yes, it has disruption as an added bonus, but the cards primary purpose is to act as an early game flying beatstick off of a ritual, nothing else.
Additionally, if you were to take out the hippie in favor of a different disruption card, you would be falling into another one of Team America's primary problems, "Low Threat Density vs. High Threat Quality" yes, it might sound like a good idea to run lots of high quality threats, however against decks with lots of removal spells, the less threats you run, the more likely you are to lose, especially if all of your threats are vulnerable in some way to that removal. Which is again why I run threats that are not as vulnerable to most forms of removal in my decks.
"He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night, and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever... He burns at the center of time and he can see the turn of the universe... and... he's wonderful."
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I have played almost a similar decklist running 3 colors, although a different variation, if you do run more white or hybrid cards,perhaps you can try chrome mox instead of ritual, not necessarily as a 4 of perhaps 3 or 2.
What I like about the 3 color list is that it gives you more threats and vindicate. I would personally run doran as a 3 of and never a 4 of just because its legendary.3 colors also gives you more sideboard options, more importantly it gives you pernicious deed as well as ghostly prisons which could definitely help against aggro and slowing them down enough. It could also give you more discard with gerrards verdict in the side if necessary. You could easily switch from aggro to control. The only usual problems I see here is ofcourse having a 3 color mana base makes us more prone to wasteland and card draw.
@ hyppie , I have never seen a hyppie considered as "not a threat", although he swings for 2, players would definitely take him out if they can. Hyppies are annoying plain and simple... The only times people don't really mind a hyppie is when they have nothing left in hand...Which is actually what we want...
@ path to exile, I personally think it wouldn't be ran as much as people think it would.
Thank you flip.
Yep, after having played this for a while, I ain't ever going back to two colors.
Like you said, not only do you get a much better threat in Doran, you also get Vindicate, which is a Snuff Out + Seal of Cleansing + Sinkhole all rolled into one card. The versatility of effectively playing 12 land destruction spells along with 8 creature kill and 4 artifact/enchantment destruction is just outright unfair.
I haven't been too impressed by white's sideboard options though.
So far, the card in white that most interests me is Gadook Teeg (subbing in for Snuff Out against combo and control).
Teeg is sweet in that he jumps in for Snuff Out which is bad against Ad Nauseum and stuff like MUC and Landstill anyways, and provides a way to shut off FoW, Disk, Wrath, Ad Nauseum, Tendrils and a bunch of other cards.
StP is interesting too, but I think Edict would be better against many of the current aggro decks in the format.
Right now, the only sideboard cards I'm sure of are...
Krosan Grip
Choke
It comes down to this...
If Hippie was a 2/2 vanilla flyer for 1B mana,
Hypnotic Specter 1B
Flying
No Abilities
2/2
would that card see play in this deck? Absolutely not. Actually even if it was a 1cc 2/2 flyer, I still wouldn't play him in the deck, for the same reason that I've never bothered with Carnophage/Sarcomancy in the deck. 2 Damage a turn is not much, not enough to win games, not enough to pose a relevent threat.
Buy say, Hyppie was instead...
Hypnotic Specter 1B
Enchantment
During each of your attack steps, if Hypnotic Specter is in play, your opponent discards a card at random from his or her hand.
Would that card see play? You bet your ass it would.
That's why Hypnotic Specter is a disruption element first, and a threat second. The disruption element is valued so much higher than the 2 damage a turn element that even if the latter part was removed, it would still see play. But if the former part was removed, the card wouldn't see the light of day in legacy. This is why Hyppe's primary function is to disrupt your opponent, it just has the bonus of also being a 10 turn clock.
Last edited by Captain Hammer; 01-10-2009 at 05:18 AM.
Have you tried using Birds of Paradise instead of Dark Ritual?
SummenSaugen: well, I use Chaos Orb, Animate Artifact, and Dance of Many to make the table we're playing on my chaos orb token
SummenSaugen: then I flip it over and crush my opponent
Did you try some number of pernicious deed?
You usually want to break it for 2 (to break opposing counterbalances, Goyf, Mongeese, Dreadnough, Confidant, etc) and your permanents are all 3+CC beside goyf.
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
Actually, yes, I did try out both Birds of Paradise and Pernicious Deed on various occasions.
This deck was just designed to be too much faster and less controllish than the Rock for either card to pull it's weight.
Dark Ritual is just so much more explosive than Birds, the number of broken things you can do off of a turn one Ritual is extremely high. Ritual is the reason this deck fairly consistently wins by turn 6-7 all while resolving craptons of disruption throughout. Birds doesn't do anything the turn you cast it.
Deed is similarly a really powerful effect that works better in a slower deck than it does in this deck. You're basically tying up two turns to use Deed, which is a lot for a very aggressive deck such as this. I think I'll run a few copies in the sideboard, but that's about it.
I'm surprised that hyppie is getting so much flack. Anyone that says he's too easy to remove probably hasn't played against a first turn hyppie. How many times do you have that swords to plowshares in your opening hand with the mana you need for it. Especially if you play him 1st turn on the play. Most decks at least need to brainstorm or ponder for it, and already they're going to be down life and a random card for it. The ony guaruntee that they'll even get to kill him after that is if they have multiples of white land + swords.
I think that whole conversation was stupid, hyppie is a house when played first turn and definitely worth it.
Yes, a turn one unanswered Hyppe is a beast. No one is going to argue with you there.
But you're not usually going to get the two card combo in your opening hand to get it out turn one most games, and even when you do, it wont always get through without being StPed, creating card disadvantage for you.
And if not played turn one, it won't swing till turn 4, by which time some decks will have emptied out their hands already. This is especially pointless if you have multiple Hyppes as your only threats (which is why I'm perfectly happy with just 3x Hyppes).
Those are the main reasons I wasn't 100% completely pleased with Hyppe in Eva Green and Sui Black
Inspite of all that, Hyppe is even stronger here because this deck plays 12 land destruction spells, not eight. So the odds that your opponent's mana development is going to be slowed down a great deal while Hyppe picks off their cards one by one is proportionally much higher.
That's why I think Hyppe is the best possible card for that slot in a generic meta. In a meta that's very heavy on big creatures though, StP in it's place make sense.
I was just playtesting this and hypie is very necessary, your threat count isn't that high, and swords isn't that good in a sui varient.
Best play in magic: Tundra, vial, - Force vial-Daze force...I win.
IMHO, before playing a W splash on eva green, you should try the new Nyxasomething. It would replace shade and give you that "big treath" 9-12 the deck needed so bad.
Then if the combo pte-stp worry you that much, just play stillmoon cavalier. It's unblockable (flying and pro black) can be pumped, and it's impossible to remove barring burn.
Alright, here is the question at hand, why would you play this over B/G/w Rock? I personally play Rock and it have been very successful for me. Looking at this list I am wondering why this would be better than playing standard Rock. Rock has Hierarchs for lifegain, Deeds in the main, Eternal Witness for insanity, and Top for late game card advantage. It is also fast as hell when it needs to be, I have had numerous turn 4-6 aggro kills with back. This is what it looks like to me, you have taken Rock and removed the matter of consistency for being fast. However, it isn't that fast and it really isn't even suicide. Suicide decks win fast as hell cause they have no late game, they go all in every game for the sake of winning with minor disruption backed up by massive creatures. I have not put this list together, but I am quite experienced with these kinds of decks and it looks like a turn 5ish average kill. As the list is it looks a lot like a less consistent Rock build than it does Suicide. I would suggest looking into the Rock thread and checking out some lists there. If you really want to play Suicide stick some Dark Confidants (I realize Tombstalker, its called Suicide for a reason) and some Jittes or other pump spells and fixate on speed. This is not a flame in any way, I am simply challenging your ideas and wanting to know why this would be better than Rock if it isn't that fast.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
Comparing this deck to Rock doesn't make any sense.
This deck is designed to just within the first three turns, nuke two lands to mana screw the opponent, disrupt the crap out of the opponent with discard, all while dropping down a 5 powered threat, and simultanously kiling the opponent's only creature/blocker for free w/ Snuff Out, once again all this with in the first three turns, and it does all that very consistently.
The rock is a much much slower deck by comparison. I've played the Rock for years, and I know that the deck might accomplish less than half of what I said above in it's first three turns. The rock takes several turns to ramp up the mana to play it's defining cards. It plays 5cc threats like Spiritmonger and bombs like Deed that however eat up two turns worth of mana to use.
So no, I don't think you should compare the two decks or their strategies. They just play out way too differently.
This stuck out to me as untrue. Yes, against control decks like Landstill, you do not want to overextend. However, against every aggro, aggro-control, and combo deck in this format, you want to put your opponent on the fastest clock you can. There's no reason not to continue to run out threats when you have no fear of a sweepeer. So basically... legendary IS a drawback, and a relevant one at that.
Also, I'm a little confused how you can rationalize playing Doran when you also make statements like this:
Doran isn't synergetic with Ritual at all, meaning that you'll be playing it turn 3 at the absolute earliest. If your deck is trying to be "explosive," Doran just seems too slow. I'm not saying Doran is a bad card, but it's definitely more suited for a deck like The Rock than it is for your deck.
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