[Deck] The Rock

[electrolyze]

@j.v. and maybe others,

I like that build, very simple but strong i think. Only one question, is reanimate not just better in the unearth slot since it can target your opponent too? I dont think the life loss is that big of an concern and the cycling wasnt used that much at all i guess.

And are the reanimate spells realy that neccesary since youre already running many removal spells and eternal witness. Is sensei's top not better for the deck?

[sauce]

Has everyone just plain forgotten about Nantuko Monastery? If you're going to play a manland that requires two mana to activate, and you're already in green and white, why in the hell would you play Treetop Village over this? I r confused.

because treetop village has trample and makes green mana.
you dont need threshold to beat in for 3 and it crushes the rest of format's creatures besides select few.

[citanul]

I'd still go for Factory over Treetop, especially since you run 3. They hit for less but don't come into play tapped, block for the same amount, cost less to animate and are great in multiples.

[from Cairo]

because treetop village has trample and makes green mana.
you dont need threshold to beat in for 3 and it crushes the rest of format's creatures besides select few.

Disagree.

The fact that it has trample is rarely relevant most of the time the opponent has no blocker, a utility they don't want to block with, or a creature that's 3/3+, in any of those cases it having trample is irrelevant.

Producing green is fine and all, but coming into play tapped is a much bigger drawback than producing colorless. IE with a Treetop Village, Bayou hand you have to chose to play discard turn 1 and suffer tempo loss turn 2, or play the Village turn 1 and give your opponent another turn to work with their cards in hand. With a Nantuko Monastery, Bayou hand you can play out a Bird or Thoughtseize turn 1 and follow it with a Tarmogoyf turn 2 without having to limit your plays by a land with a huge tempo set back.

Not needing threshold is valid, there will be cases where you don't have 7 in the yard and might otherwise be able to be utilizing a manland. But at the same time in a deck with 6-8 Discard spells and 4-7 fetchs, getting 7 cards into the yard seems like it will happen in the mid game pretty reliably. Also alot of the time in the early game, you'd be using the land for mana production anyway.

Finally a 3/3 does not crush most of the formats creatures... Tarmogoyf is most of the formats creatures and its reliably 3/4+, not to mention looking at the decks in the DTB forum: Team America's Tombstalker, Thresh's Mystic Enforcer, Agro Loam's Countryside Crushers and Terravores, Dreadstill's Dreadnaughts. Most of the top tier decks that are packing creatures are playing ones that are larger than Treetop Village.

Personally I would rank them as Mishra's Factory being best (due to not coming into play tapped, becoming more powerful in multiples and costing the least to activate), Nantuko Monastery second (being largest, having first strike, not coming into play tapped; downside being reliant on gy) and Treetop Village being the least viable of the 3 man lands (due to tempo hit, and mostly irrelevant benefits over the other two).

[sauce]

Disagree.

The fact that it has trample is rarely relevant most of the time the opponent has no blocker, a utility they don't want to block with, or a creature that's 3/3+, in any of those cases it having trample is irrelevant.

Producing green is fine and all, but coming into play tapped is a much bigger drawback than producing colorless. IE with a Treetop Village, Bayou hand you have to chose to play discard turn 1 and suffer tempo loss turn 2, or play the Village turn 1 and give your opponent another turn to work with their cards in hand. With a Nantuko Monastery, Bayou hand you can play out a Bird or Thoughtseize turn 1 and follow it with a Tarmogoyf turn 2 without having to limit your plays by a land with a huge tempo set back.

Not needing threshold is valid, there will be cases where you don't have 7 in the yard and might otherwise be able to be utilizing a manland. But at the same time in a deck with 6-8 Discard spells and 4-7 fetchs, getting 7 cards into the yard seems like it will happen in the mid game pretty reliably. Also alot of the time in the early game, you'd be using the land for mana production anyway.

Finally a 3/3 does not crush most of the formats creatures... Tarmogoyf is most of the formats creatures and its reliably 3/4+, not to mention looking at the decks in the DTB forum: Team America's Tombstalker, Thresh's Mystic Enforcer, Agro Loam's Countryside Crushers and Terravores, Dreadstill's Dreadnaughts. Most of the top tier decks that are packing creatures are playing ones that are larger than Treetop Village.

Personally I would rank them as Mishra's Factory being best (due to not coming into play tapped, becoming more powerful in multiples and costing the least to activate), Nantuko Monastery second (being largest, having first strike, not coming into play tapped; downside being reliant on gy) and Treetop Village being the least viable of the 3 man lands (due to tempo hit, and mostly irrelevant benefits over the other two).

we run different lists, i dont run birds, i obviously said most of formats creatures like the ones you chose to omit.
treetop is also awesome against landstill as it takes 2 factories to just trade w/ one of them.

it also stops early attacks from dark confidant, nimble mongoose, trades with small goyfs, etc.

it makes green, which helps MY build. if you don't draw any land after your initial draw of bayou, treetop, you got bigger problems than tempo.

secondly, MY rock build is not THE BEATDOWN initially, it is playing CONTROL early on and beatdown later. So "tempo loss" early on is not an issue for my build. I don't attempt to go on the offensive w/ a treetop early on.
If that is all I can do, then I will do it.

also, please explain how could peter win danish legacy champs 2008 with this build:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21692

it is obviously so bad since it runs no monasteries or factories.

[morgan_coke]

treetop is also awesome against landstill as it takes 2 factories to just trade w/ one of them.

Fail. One factory trades with treetop. They activate it, it blocks and taps to give itself +1/+1, making it a 3/3, making it trade with treetop.

If you're playing control and beating late, then Monastery is by far the best option for you since late game you will almost always have threshold barring someone popping a relic. Also, if you're picking best manland vs. landstill, again, it's Monastery as it takes three factorys to kill it due to 4/4 first strikeyness.

[sauce]

Fail. One factory trades with treetop. They activate it, it blocks and taps to give itself +1/+1, making it a 3/3, making it trade with treetop.

If you're playing control and beating late, then Monastery is by far the best option for you since late game you will almost always have threshold barring someone popping a relic. Also, if you're picking best manland vs. landstill, again, it's Monastery as it takes three factorys to kill it due to 4/4 first strikeyness.

not attacking, blocking... so it takes 2 factories.

[Facevaulter]

@ JV thanks for the list update, I'll give that list a test tonight and Volrath's be a sure inclusion in any future build.

[from Cairo]

we i obviously said most of formats creatures like the ones you chose to omit.

And I replied Tarmogoyf is most of the format's creatures, theres only a hanful of small creatures that see play Dark Confidant, Nimble Mongoose, Goblins... All the manlands can deal with them and live, its just that Treetop Village takes 2 mana to activate and block and has to come into play tapped.

treetop is also awesome against landstill as it takes 2 factories to just trade w/ one of them.

Factory trades 1 for 1 with Treetop Village, one obviously would tap the Factory after declaring it as a blocker. Village would deter someone from attacking with a Factory no more so than an opposing Factory or Monastary.

it also stops early attacks from dark confidant, nimble mongoose, trades with small goyfs, etc.

So do the other man lands.

it makes green, which helps MY build. if you don't draw any land after your initial draw of bayou, treetop, you got bigger problems than tempo.

Clearly. My point was Treetop Village is going to limit avenues of play because it comes into play tapped, and that the ability to add green with the cost of coming into play tapped, is more detrimental to early game development than producing colorless.

secondly, MY rock build is not THE BEATDOWN initially, it is playing CONTROL early on and beatdown later. So "tempo loss" early on is not an issue for my build. I don't attempt to go on the offensive w/ a treetop early on.
If that is all I can do, then I will do it.

Regardless it's going to have 1, 2 and 3 mana spells that can't be cast on their respective turns with a comes into play tapped land. Whether they are control cards or aggressive ones is a moot point.

also, please explain how could peter win danish legacy champs 2008 with this build:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21692

it is obviously so bad since it runs no monasteries or factories.

Right, cause sub optimal decks have never placed in any events, if anything does win an event its clearly the perfect build and no one should question a card choice in it.........

[sauce]

And I replied Tarmogoyf is most of the format's creatures, theres only a hanful of small creatures that see play Dark Confidant, Nimble Mongoose, Goblins... All the manlands can deal with them and live, its just that Treetop Village takes 2 mana to activate and block and has to come into play tapped.



Factory trades 1 for 1 with Treetop Village, one obviously would tap the Factory after declaring it as a blocker. Village would deter someone from attacking with a Factory no more so than an opposing Factory or Monastary.



So do the other man lands.



Clearly. My point was Treetop Village is going to limit avenues of play because it comes into play tapped, and that the ability to add green with the cost of coming into play tapped, is more detrimental to early game development than producing colorless.



Regardless it's going to have 1, 2 and 3 mana spells that can't be cast on their respective turns with a comes into play tapped land. Whether they are control cards or aggressive ones is a moot point.



Right, cause sub optimal decks have never placed in any events, if anything does win an event its clearly the perfect build and no one should question a card choice in it.........

here is another suboptimal deck placing:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23005

oh my more treetop villages

[from Cairo]

You still haven't been able to refute a single point against Village. It's coming into play tapped is a serious drawback, the fact that it's not superior to Factory and costs more to activate is a serious drawback, the fact it has no synergy in multiples is a drawback, the fact that Monastery is a much superior creature any time after you hit 7 cards in the yard is a drawback.

[sauce]

You still haven't been able to refute a single point against Village. It's coming into play tapped is a serious drawback, the fact that it's not superior to Factory and costs more to activate is a serious drawback, the fact it has no synergy in multiples is a drawback, the fact that Monastery is a much superior creature any time after you hit 7 cards in the yard is a drawback.

it is the bomb diggity cuz it makes green mana, who cares if it citp, youre not gonna play it turn 1 vs combo, and btw the other man lands dont help you vs combo (to make black mana) anyway.

this land is the most solid man land, thats why everyone plays it that has green in their deck instead of factory or nantuko monastery.
monastery is only good after threshold, which is when u should be winning anyway, while treetop helps make mana and stops opponent from pumping you in the face with a mongoose every turn.

[georgjorge]

this land is the most solid man land, thats why everyone plays it that has green in their deck instead of factory or nantuko monastery.

Here you're starting to lose credibility. A lot.

Decks that run green, but play Factory nonetheless: Ug Dreadstill, 4c Landstill.

Decks that run green and play both: 42lands.dec.

Decks that play Village over Factory: None, other than those Rock variants you are talking about.

[sauce]

Here you're starting to lose credibility. A lot.

Decks that run green, but play Factory nonetheless: Ug Dreadstill, 4c Landstill.

Decks that run green and play both: 42lands.dec.

Decks that play Village over Factory: None, other than those Rock variants you are talking about.

i was exaggerating of course, but i don't know what else to say, i think good decks can be built using either land (factory or treetop.)
i just noticed that most recent "the rock" archtype decks in top8s on deckcheck ran treetops.

[Mordel]

Top eights on deckcheck aren't exactly the holy grail of deck references either. Lots of tournies that show up on it are little we tournies with like twenty people. Why not check and see how many treetop villages you see in BG aggro/ctrl decks that appear and the GP?

i was exaggerating of course, but i don't know what else to say, i think good decks can be built using either land (factory or treetop.)

Smacks of backpedaling imo. Treetops aren't that shit hot, many people have actually tested them and know this to be true. The main reason is because lots of people used to run village in their rock decks...about eight years ago. There is a clear reason why that has changed over time.

I don't know who else I am speaking on behalf of when I say this, but I played lots of extended when real rock was played in it, have played numerous incarnations since and I am quite familiar with the advantages of treetop and quite frankly; they don't matter anymore as far as I am concerned.

If you want to keep running it, go for it, but it isn't accepted as an optimum man land choice anymore by lots of people.

[b4r0n]

Now that we've agreed on how Treetop Village is terrible, a more relevant question: is there any reason not to run 4 Pernicious Deed? That card seems like the main/only reason to run this deck over, say, Survival.

Other than that, I think J.V.'s list is pretty optimal. Has Crypt versus Extirpate been discussed with regards to The Rock? Or is it not worth starting up that whole argument again?

[Mordel]

Well, I've been running into a lot more random jank lately, so I've switched to BG(w) due to its ability to handle random jank.

I personally don't see a reason to run less than four deeds if only to ensure that you see them frequently. I can understand running only three though if someone doesn't see a large proliferation of blue or needed to cut a card desperately and felt that they only pop a deed once before winning most games, run tops and such, so three can be afforded.

I personally see lots of jank that runs blue, so four deeds is the number for me despite the fact that I seldom explode a deed more than once in a game.

Actually, even in a BGw survival list that I have been playing with, there are three deeds, heh.

In my BG's sideboard, I actually have three extirpates that I rarely side in and two crypts. Lately, I have been strongly considering merging those slots into four crypts, so I can bring in a fourth grip or an extra duress.

Extirpates seem like a great card in theory to get stuff that would normally be backbreaking out of the game to me...I've sided them in only a few times, but I have not regretted it when I have. They have been great to get rid of stifles in the past (which I find annoying) standstills, opposing relics, magus of the moon and o-rings.

I'm kind of hung up on how awesome extirpate has been for me in a few occasions and it's theoretical potential though. If there was something new that I ended up seeing a lot and something needed to go, extirpates would be my first pick at what gets the axe to make room for whatever.

[Valarne]

With your discussion of man-lands, I'd like to mention Forbidding Watchtower. Wouldn't it be the best in the versions running Doran? It can block your standard 4/5 Goyf pre-Doran, and it hits hard post-Doran.

Have you considered it?

[Eatatjoes]

With your discussion of man-lands, I'd like to mention Forbidding Watchtower. Wouldn't it be the best in the versions running Doran? It can block your standard 4/5 Goyf pre-Doran, and it hits hard post-Doran.

Have you considered it?

Forbidding watchtower is garbage. I dont think ive ever even seen a mono white deck play them. Also, the doran versions are aggro builds, they dont want to waste time stalling, doran is the beatdown. Why would we be worried about blocking with a land, when we have, doran/goyf/tombstalker, and mass creature kill, and pinpoint removal spells.

[johanessen]

I suggest people who like playing rock to make a visit on this post: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=12809

thanks