People playing around it means they aren't playing optimally, which is awsome for you.Originally Posted by Sage
Assembling the combo is piece of cake, specially because the combo requires only Counterbalance, since Top is an improvement, but not a necessity. With 8 Brainstorms+Ponders, Counterbalance will be effective almost all the time.
As long as you can imprint a mid/late game aggressivity, after taking control of the game, you shouldn't be getting ties. Countertop does very little if you can't deal with what your opponent plays while dodging it or before it becomes online. With O-Ring (1-2), STP (4), EE (0-2) and a Huge Flying Thing (1), you shouldn't have problems with that.
Keep moon-walking.
I actually did play Merfolk about five days ago. I don't really remember the game much. I won twice, lost once. I do think KOR helped but I used it primarily as a large self pumping blocker and beatstick rather than to disrupt the manabase. That's really all I can say about the matchup.
if they get a lord of atlantis out, all your blockers are non blockers.
the aether vial + standstill merfolk build has a really good matchup against ugw thresh.
My 12 Post Videos - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...Q65OWRL5my7utn
I've noticed when playing against Merfolk that the aggro/control decks I've been playing have done quite poorly against it for two reasons;
1-If Aether Vial resolves - that's probably game
(EE just gets Stifled)
2-If Lord of Atlantis resolves - that's probably game
I just think that Merfolk is a really good metagame deck right now because it has a good matchup against most of the other aggro control decks. From what I've read, it's only bad matchup is goblins. I am starting to wonder if the white Threshold splash is the best one for the metta at the moment. Red just gives you soooooo many more options and answers to aggro. But, dropping StP makes your TA/Dreadstill/Eva green matchups worse. So, I guess you can't have your cake and eat it too unless you want to run 4 colors and get owned by moon effects and the like.
even 3 color thresh gets owned by moon..
My 12 Post Videos - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...Q65OWRL5my7utn
The Merfolks matchup has been a concern for me due to its growing popularity in our metagame. I've tested it a bit with a pretty standard list and got some opinions.
Even though it's never going to turn into a very possitive one, I've found EE to be pretty useful in this matchup, as it's much better than other cards such as Oblivion Ring, just because it can get you some nice card advantage by blowing X+1 creatures. Yeah, it can get stifled, well, that's what counters/CB are for, as it's usual for them to make you save counters thanks to their f***ing Vials. I have found also that using EE on Vial is a waste of resources most of time. Vial usually leads to an early counterwar. I you don't win that counterwar you can try to get rid of it soon, but as far as the game goes, Vial gets worse, they don't have Ringleader or Siege-Gang, if it goes through, then start worrying about what's appearing. If you can't get rid of it soon, then your next objective is Lord of Atlantis.
Another great card, coming form the sideboard, is Pithing Needle, as shutting Mutavault in the midagame can give you an edge.
Having more than a pair of threats is also nice, as you can get some time if they don't go mad with Lords.
To sum up, we can't deny it's a bad matchup, but I think that with some tight play against non-MD Relic lists you can get some games.
Maybe 4c can get a better game, I haven't tested it, but their mana denial plan in going to hurt, and I'm not sure that it's that necessary against many other relevant matchups.
We tried to copy the Source, but then we realized we're spanish
If my post results dumb or offensive, it's probably just me miserably failing at being ironic in a foreign language
If you have problems with Merfolk and non-red aggro in general: We have Path to Exile now.
4 Stop main and 3 PtE SB make the aggro matchup not that painful anymore.
TS Crew
Merfolk and Elves decks are problematic. I think they are by far superior to Goblin against UGW. They have Champions that can end the game on their own (unblockable). Merfolk especially runs Countermagic.
I managed to get some KOR and PTE foil today. They costed me a fortune
Robert
I was thinking about this list:
Creatures (10):
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Nimble Mongoose
2 Trygon Predator
1 Mystic Enforcer (maybe -1 Enforcer, +1 Nimble Mongoose)
Cb/top (7):
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
Counters (8):
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
Cantrips (8):
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
Toolbox (5:)
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Back to Basics
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Pithing Needle
Removal (5):
4 Swords to plowshares
(1 Oblivion ring)
Lands (18):
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 plains
1 forest
Sideboard contains pyroblast's and pyroclam.
However I'm not sure whether playing Wooded Foothills is such a good idea. Heath doesnt fetch Volcanic Island, which is bad postboard. However you do need a fetch that can fetch to forest, plains, tundra and tropical island preboard.
I´m also not content with the fact that this lists plays only 10 creatures, however I can´t get more space.
I think UGW(r) Threshold needs Back to Basics since it really helps your bad matchup´s. So i´m sure I want to play that card.
When looking at other UGW(r) decks on Deckcheck, several lists play Lightning bolt´s. I´m not sure whether that is as good as it looks like. I prefer a toolbox with B2B.
What do you think of the list? How can it be improved? What do you think of the manabase?
Team Nijmegen
Robbert Slavenburg
DCI: 2069307189
:)
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun." --Ash
I do not agree with some choices you make.
You only play 2 Basics, which is far too less. You atleast need to play 3 or maybe even 4.
Second thing: Why do you play rushing river? Bounce is pretty bad in a list that isn't Tempo Thresh, like Canadian Thresh.
Third thing: There are far better options than Spell Snare, I think.
Fourth thing: you only have 2 fetch to get 1 of your basics. Thats really inconsistent.
1. You don't play Back to Basics, which is a bomb. It really helps you a lot against bad matchup's, pretty good against 50/50 matchup's and can lead to instant wins against outtapped TA, ANT (with no basics) etc.
2. Pithing Needle is a card that helps against bad matchup's aswell. You really need general cards in big tournaments. Pithing Needle is a card that is never dead against nearly all matchups. Polluted Delta, Survival, Vial, Deed, EE's, Factory's all seem to be pretty good targets.
I was thinking about a build that ruins more Enlightened Tutor and maybe less Counterbalance/top. Like: If you already have Cb/top, more Enlightned tutor aren't bad, because they can search answers. If you need one peace: Enlightened Tutor can find the card. I'm not sure whether this is really good, but it seems oke to me. What do you think?
Team Nijmegen
Robbert Slavenburg
DCI: 2069307189
I think I can answer a few of these.
-You really only need an Island and Forest to operate. Of course, running more basics does help against some problem match ups, but this deck is 4c and not running enough duals or fetches will get you color screwed.
-Rushing River is probably in there to handle things like Humility. It can also bounce potential blockers or attackers, Survival, Dreadnought, etc. A good, flexible card that you can dig for game one.
-Spell Snare is incredibly good in this format: Goyf, Counterbalance, Survival, Standstill, Sinkhole, Dark Confidant, Hymn, Daze (Pinder), etc.
-True; Personally I would run 3 green fetches.
-Back to Basics is good, but not in a 4c deck. It is pretty spectacular in some UGw builds but the strategies for that list and Der's list are a bit different. One has more counters, while Der's has some more permanent solutions (ie Oblivion Ring, B2B, etc).
-2 Pithing Needle are in the board. Are you wanting it to be main deck? Well, Trygon Predator really helps remove problem artifacts and enchantments so I really don't see the need. Once you know what you are up against after G1, SB them in.
-Enlightened Tutor is iffy. It lets you get some good cards and answers but it takes slots. It is really up to the playstyle. I think the recommended list goes for more counters to assist in the MUs like combo, TA, and the mirror instead of stuff like O Ring, B2B to help against Landstill, etc. Personal preference.
About ten games of testing with KOR against my Brother (mirror match : we have exactly the same list, except he is running MD EE, and i am running MD trygon predator. EE seems to be a more powerful tool in the mirror, pre-board):
I would say half game when i drew KOR, KOR wasnt as explosive as i expected. In the other half games, KOR was like a tarmogoyf #5-6 (by tarmogoyf, i mean a big fat relatively cheap beater). We used KOR to dodge CB mainly, but also a creature that is stronger than Tarmogoyf (generally, using his ability only once is enough to grow it bigger than tarmogoyf), Our lists are also permanent heavy, so we sometimes have problems reaching 7 cards in the graveyard. This is when KOR can be useful to reach it. (We've cut the predict already)
Im not playing B2B at the moment. They are in my sb.
MD Oblivion Ring and Krosan grip worked wonderfully for me. With that many 3cc, i found myself countering 3cc spells quite often. (I play 2 trygon predator, 2 kor, 2 oring, 1 krosan grip, My brother played 2 EE, 2 Oring, 2 Kor). It is also a good way of dodging CB, while keeping the core of the deck intact. However, having that many 3cc spells can make the starting seven more problematic. I also run 18 lands to support my 7 3cc cards. (3 island, 1 forest, 1 plain, 8 fetchland, 5 duals)
I feel very confident with my current list. But i am still hesitating whether not playing the B2B and Pithing Needle MD. In my limited testing (mainly against TA, Dreadstill and UGW), i found them to be unnecessary. But i know that at any large events, Landstill will be very present.
I think the addition of PTE to our SB or MD will improve our TA matchup greatly. If we can get rid of their 8 threats, the game is ours. Ride the mongoose to victory.
B2B is unnecessary against TA i think. I am still not convinced on Divert, although they can be quite amazing in this matchup. I dont know if it is worth 3 slots in the SB.
But back to my real point... I think 2 Oblivion ring with 1 Krosa grip are wonderful MD. They are almost never dead cards (except maybe against combo). The next legacy event here is going to be big (For a timewalk beta). I think CB will be all over the place (along alot of Landstill, Dreadstill, TA, Tres.hold...). Having more 3cc cards, and having more MD answer to it is certainly the way to go!
I think UGW doesnt need to go 4c. It already has answers to everything... except stupid elves
Robert
Elves, Merfolk, Goblins are greatly improved by pyroclasm.
Landstill, Itf, Threshold (extra counters), solidarity (not really worth mentioning but still), MUC and other U-based decks are improved by pyroblast's.
I'm still doubting whether 4c is the way to go, but Pyroclasm and Pyroblast seem excellent choices for large tournaments 60+ (or mb even 100+, since the metagame will be anything even extended decks like elfball or something). Since I play 2 Trygon Predator's, O ring, Back to Basic's, Pyroblast and Pithing Needle (naming one card, what will it be) the landstill matchup is far better then the usual list's. ITF also becomes better. Those are matchup's that are really hard to win. Daze is the most powerful card in your deck against Landstill/ITF (because it has an awesome way of slowing your opponent down and has a nice synenergy with B2B).
Team Nijmegen
Robbert Slavenburg
DCI: 2069307189
4c yes, is better against aggro, and pyroblast is wonderful against blue deck BUT
3c allows you to play 4-5 basic lands which allows you to dodge most Non basic land hate. I think that this is a huge advantage over 4c. In a large event, i think i will be expecting more aggro/control than aggro (there will be some merfolks, slivers. There wont be alot of elfes and goblins. Not at an event where the entry fee is high). I can't be sure absolutely, but im willing to take that risk :)
On ITF : With pithing needle and alot of 3cc. You can defeat this deck rather easily. (Pithing needle allow you to block his removals or his recursion) and 3cc just counter his deed and intuition
UGW is already the best color ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh in the mirror. Going 4c wont improve it by much.
Landstill is still my scariest matchup. The deck can just go insane! LAst thursday, i tested against someone with UWB landstill. Fortunately, he told me he didnt play Humility, which relieved me a bit. But he was playing like 13 removal ( something like 4stp, 3 edict, 3 smother and 3 vindicate!!!). We are not even counting the EE he had. CB really shined against him.
Last edited by T is for TOOL; 02-18-2009 at 10:36 AM.
@ Omega: Could we see a decklist? 2 Oblivion+1Krosan, Knight, Trygon, etc.
We tried to copy the Source, but then we realized we're spanish
If my post results dumb or offensive, it's probably just me miserably failing at being ironic in a foreign language
I don't know whether you looked properly but my list also plays 4 basics. It also runs Trygon Predators and also Pithing Needle's.
This is the list:
Creatures (10):
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Nimble Mongoose
2 Trygon Predator
1 Mystic Enforcer (maybe -1 Enforcer, +1 Nimble Mongoose)
Cb/top (7):
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
Counters (8):
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
Cantrips (8):
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
Toolbox (5:)
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Back to Basics
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Pithing Needle
Removal (5):
4 Swords to plowshares
(1 Oblivion ring)
Lands (18):
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 plains
1 forest
I'm in doubt whether 3 Enlightened Tutor and only 3 Counterbalance and 3 Sensei's Divining Top and 1 Pithing Needle is the way to go. Maybe more Enlightened Tutor's means more answers to everything. I need to test this first, before I can conclude anything.
Team Nijmegen
Robbert Slavenburg
DCI: 2069307189
And I'm in doubt whether 4color+Back to Basics can really work out well...
We have already tinkered around with the list for a long time as seen here, here and here:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21997
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22376
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21395
After having tested a littlebit, coming to the conclusion that Trygon Predator is actually a house in the mirrormatch and Nimble Mongoose usually too small, we restructured UGW Threshold as seen here and here (Clemens scrubbed out of contention at that event):
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22725
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22723
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23034
(Clemens is Der_imaginäre_Freund, Daniel is me, Felix is Brehn btw.)
To copy someone's list and mixing it up with a unnecessary concept is definitely the wrong way. I mean, Back to Basics and a 4color manabase. That's awful.
The idea of running 3 Enlightened Tutors is not recommendable my any means necessar. The tutor is clunky, but served as a proxy No. 5 Counterbalance in our build, making the 1of's from the toolbox virtually 2ofs. That was his only purpose. He was good enough to compensate the disadvantage, but you can't efford that disadvantage most of the time, thus playing more than 1 would be fatal.
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
Sorry, I just have to ask. Why would you Spell Snare a Daze?
I did not just copy your list, put 2 volcanic's in them and that's it. I play Threshold for a pretty long time now, played nearly every list (even UG). By doing that I could see all flaws of the decks.
I wanted to build a Threshold list that can deal with all their bad matchup's all the same time. Since Threshold does have pretty bad matchup's or 50/50's and optimal build is necessary.
Team Nijmegen first built an 4c threshold list with black without any nimble mongoose's. People illustrated us as idiots, however our list seemed the right choice playing in our metagame. However I soon saw some flaws which could not be overcome by the 4c threshold list.
I looked at other lists and became aware of the Back to Basic's + Enlightened Tutor list. Tested it briefly and came to the conclusion that this is the way to go on an hugh tournament. I became 20e/156, however I was still not satisfied with the list. I started looking for other solution's. One of them was Trygon Predator's which some list's already played. They were pretty awesome in testing.
However UGw Threshold still has flaws. It has a hard matchup against swarms of creatures. It also has a hard matchup against control decks. Both are played a lot at large tournaments.
One way to solve it is to splash a fourth colour, with still 4 basic's and little demand for red (only 2 Volcanic Island) to keep the manabase as consistent as possible (which is hard).
I'm convinced that you do need to have the fourth colour (red) to make the machtup's that are hard to beat better. Since I do want to play Stp's, a little splash is necessary.
My manabase actually isn't that different from your list. The only way my list is different is that my list plays 1 extra dual in exchange for 1 fetch. So your contradicting yourself. The manabase is still solid enough to play B2B, which is needed aswell.
The Enlightened Tutor is something which I am not sure of. A larger search engine is pretty good, however you already play 8 cantrip's and 3 top's to search your Enchantment's and Artifact's. Your probably right on that, however E. Tutor and Counterbalance do have a nice synenergy. If you simple need a CC 3 for an opposing Deed....
Team Nijmegen
Robbert Slavenburg
DCI: 2069307189
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